HELP very very early wakings

[mumto5cuddlebugs]

Hi, I have a toddler and a baby. Toddler has always been great sleeper  but baby is not. In the first three months she was great but now since christmas (she is eight months now) she has been waking up from 4am onwards. I donot pick her up or feed her and she gets more and more frantic , sometimes i have to pat her back to sleep and sometimes she falls back to sleep her self untill about 6:30am (when husband gets up for work) we are both exhausted and am finding it harder to cope with very boisterous toddler when so tired. I have tried everything, i am not a panicker and feel have lots of commen sense but am at end of tether...can anyone make any suggestions?

[teezee]

could you pls post your routine?

[mumto5cuddlebugs]

This is how the routine is supposed to be but she often wakes at about 4am and cries sometimes for upto two hours then she goes back to sleep until 7-8ish. We do not pick her up, we sometimes sh and pat her, but that only works occasionally if it is not working we leave her and just check her every ten minutes of so or when the crying is going out of control) I do supply teaching and if i know i have to work then i sometimes feed her as soon as she wakes just so i can get some sleep, altough it doesn't always work. We stick to the rest of the routine as best we can. She sleeps very well at nap time.
up at 7am,
nap between 10am untill 11-11.30,
 afternoon nap at aabout 1pm until 2.30-3pm
 bed at 7.15pm. 
Although recently experimenting witn no morning nap but it's quite hard work!
 Am modifying because original routine too brief. That is the sleep routine, she is breast fed at about 7am (i sometimes but hardly ever feed her on waking at 5am but it does not always get her back to sleep, she is not hungry or thirsty because when she does finally fall asleep again, which can take 1hour plus she will sleep for another few hours) She has solid three meals a day, at about 8am, 12.30pm and 5 pm, she has water at lunch time and is bf at 7pm just before bed. She goes down in her cot awake and gets herself to sleep (she used to have a dummy but does not anymore, she does have bear that she likes on her head!) I dropped the dream feed about 1.5 month ago when she began to have three meals a day. I did try reintroducing it to see if it would help her sleep through the night but it made no difference. Before bed she normally has a play with my husband and my toddler but then she has quiet time with me while toddler is put to bed, for bf and story. I have tried everything i can think of and would really appreciate any ideas you have.

[olleezmom]

I know EXACTLY how you feel.  My DS is almost 9 months old and has been doing the exact same thing for nearly three months now!  Early wakings, and not going back to sleep...4:15  this morning was about all I can handle, which is why I am on this board looking for help.  Although I have nothing to help you with, except to say that I definately feel your pain, I hope someone else can offer some advice!  Our routine is very much the same as yours!
Good luck!
Dawn

[teezee]

ok well am naps are said to be seen as an extension of night time sleep and therefore should be the shortest A time in a.m and the shortest nap of the day in the a.m also as lo should be very rested from the night (all depends on your lo some do better with a longer nap in the am - but usually shortest is the am.) this way lo will be able to have a longer nap in the afternoon and be able to be more rested to stay up a longer period of time til bed. 3ish til 7ish is a long time (even with a longer pm nap) for a lo this age to be up.

if lo is waking up at 4 or so for a couple of hrs then going back to sleep, and having a longer am nap, lo is probably 'making up for lost sleep' in the am nap kwim?...so why sleep at night?? i suggest limiting the am nap (although it really doesn't look 'that' long maybe 45 min is good?..something to try and play with i think anyway..).

the other thing is that if lo is getting too much day sleep (my lo could only nap a total of 2.5hrs at that age) they won't be tired enough to sleep through the night. you may want to  try limiting lo's nap times a bit, and maybe extend the A time before the pm nap a bit (1.5 to 2 hrs isn't much A time) that way it won't be so far off to bedtime as it will push everything forward.

it's just a matter of tweaking lo's routine a bit here and there and i think everything will be back on track for you!

[mumto5cuddlebugs]

Thanks for the advice, will try it out. I will restrict morning nap and put her to bed later in afternoon, i must admit she goes down at that time because thats when my toddler has a nap, i've been hanging on to that hour when they are both asleep but i'd happily have baby awake in the day instead of the night.  And thanks to Dawn, it's great to know i'm not the only one awake at such an early time, (I was woken at 4am this morning and had to cope with crying until about 5:45am) it does get me down, but i'm trying to remain positive. (everyone says she'll grow out of it) I hope things improve for us soon!

[olleezmom]

OK...so he was up at 5:30 today.  Played in crib until 6, then started wailing.  A few questions I'm looking for help with...
First, after the first PU/PD, he doesn't really cry, but crawls around in crib, grabs at my face, just wants to "play".  But if I go away, or ignore him, he cries again.  What to do?
Second, and I think I know the answer to this one...on these days that he is up at 5:30, do I change the routine so that he sleeps afer 3 hours, or do I try to keep him up until his regular nap time?  What about when he falls alseep while nursing, do I let him go?  That screws up the whole day then?  (I have been though to get a few winks in myself though?
People have told me this is a stage too!  How long can it last?  I also thought it was teeth, we have been teething for the past month and a half- 6 new teeth , but come on now...I am losing my mind at this point!

[mumto5cuddlebugs]

Hi, I can only advise on how i would deal with it because as you know i am having similar problems. My LO has only got two teeth and i having been blaming everything on imminent teething!
My LO was awake early again today so i'm trying the new routine. I am keeping her up (when before if she woke up early i would give her a nap early) until 10:00 and waking her up after 45 minutes, and i have kept her up until 2:00pm and have just put her down and i'm going to wake her in an hour and half. She had ten minutes in the car, but i could not avoid that. I only nurse LO morning and night so i don't have that sleep problem. But i think i would try to allow sleep only at planned nap times. It's all so difficult trying to get the balance for whats best for baby and you. I totally sympathise. This morning my baby went back to sleep eventualy and i decided to wake her up at 7:30 but i found it really hard (i hate waking sleeping babies and i could have done with the extra sleep myself) I have decided to stick at this new routine for 5-6 days because in my experience it always takes at least three days of the new routine for it to begin working) I feel better having a plan (it's the only thing stopping me going insane!) i just hope it works. I think once the routine is established properly i'll be able to stop being so strict about it all.
In regard to the problem of baby wanting you in the morning i never pick mine up i just turn on musical light thing that she has and leave her-although it is very hard and is partly what is driving me mad  but the idea is that she wil learn that she does not get played with or get lots of attention whilst in the cot. (although my lo cant crawl yet so she stays where i put her!)We only have 2 bedrooms and my toddler is in  one so we have taken to sleeping downstairs while we try to sort this out! As soon as she sleeps through then we can move her into his room.
I'm sorry if this is not much help it is just how i'm trying to solve the problem. I really hope things improve for you. Good luck.

[teezee]

olleezmom- if he is not falling back to sleep and cries when you walk away chances are he is not tired and wants to be awake b/c of it. if he does wake up early you would alter his routine - although try to extend A time somewhat to 'try' to keep it somewhat on track with a regular day...and you don't want lo falling asleep early enough that he starts making up for his night time sleep with an early/long am nap - just be sure lo doesn't get overtired as that will inhibit good sleep too. if he falls asleep nursing - always, try to wake him.  walk around and talk to him for 5 minutes or so and make sure he is aware enough that when you put him down in the crib he will be able to fall asleep on his own and doesn't associate sleeping and nursing.

[mumto5cuddlebugs]

Teezee-Having read my post does it sound to you that i'm on the right track? The changes take time to be effective and i want to get it right now as i have to work after the easter holidays and would like to have it sorted out.

[teezee]

it sounds like you are doing well with it! keep at it and if in a few days you don't see improvements then tweak a bit more - just want to add that sometimes if lo is working on a milestone it can disrupt sleep in the same way you have described as well.

[mumto5cuddlebugs]

LO slept until 6:00 this morning- which is so much better than 4:))am! I fed her and put her back to bed until 7:00 (when i woke her up) which worked, so things are looking good at the moment. Thanks for all your help!

[teezee]

congrats! i too still have an occasional early waking around here (she seems to be doing it more regularly lately  ) and b/c she just went through her nine month growth spurt i was feeding her when she woke around 5:30 which she would take half of a feeding, then a whole feeding again when she woke at 7:30 ish and still fed enormous amounts the rest of the day...well this last week or so it has been totally affecting her daytime intake so i have to start a weaning process for the early am feeding now    didn't tihnk i would have to do this again...but...oh well do what you gotta do. if you truly don't mind waking at that time to feed dd, then go for it. you could do as i am going to do and go for the weaning and help lo take in more calories at a more 'appropriate' time so she will sleep the 'entire' night...but i do have to say that you have had AMAZING progress and good for you for staying consistant!! congrats!

[mumto5cuddlebugs]

Thanks, reading that has cheered me up! I was feeling confident this morning but i've been having a crisis of confidence because dd slept for under an hour this afternoon and was v tired by bed time-she also woke uo about 45 mins after being put to bed. (Think its teeth though). My fingers are crossed for tonight. Whilst i am establishing this routine i have decided to feed her if she wakes after 6:00am and then i will try to wean her off it, as you are, good luck with it. (It seems just when we think everything is settled and predictable baby decides to change things and keep us on our toes!)

[teezee]

it sounds as though lo just may have been a little overtired as wakings right after putting lo down (within the first few hrs..) is usually due to overtiredness. if you have a nap situation like that again - i would suggest just putting lo to bed at an earlier time. keep me updated - my fingers are crossed for you!