Author Topic: VERY frusterated with shhh/pat  (Read 6215 times)

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Offline Janie

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VERY frusterated with shhh/pat
« on: April 13, 2006, 02:16:16 am »
I have read the baby whisperer solves your problems from front to back, and i just can't seem to find any encouragement for what to do when shhh/pat DOES NOT calm my baby.  I am sooo frusterated i am going to start screaming with my baby. 

She is almost three months old.  She has been on a 3 hour easy for 2 months, however, in that time we have not consistently gotten her to calm down with shh/pat.  My accidental parenting mistake is bouncing her to sleep.  When i first started easy it was a challenge enough to get the routine going, let alone teach her to sleep; at that point she just needed to be sleeping consistently.  Today I started shh/pat again and she did fine for all her naps, and had nice long 1/5 hr naps.  Evening came and i did the same as during the day: dimmmed room, swaddled tightly, soother ready, shh/ and patting on chest (when i put her on her side she arches like crazy, and screams until she is red red red.  At least on her back she doesn't arch.) I stayed with her for an hour and a half the first time tonight, the whole time she screamed.  I picked her up a few times and she calmed, but as soon as she went down in the crib she went into a rage again. It was eating time so she ate.  Aftewards she was tired right away so we started again, and again she screamed herself red in the face, all the while i was standing there shhhing and patting (trying to be confident).  Again, 2 hours went by and she ate. 
I do not want to give up, but i really feel lost.  The book does not address the fact that shhh and pat sometimes does not calm the baby.  because she is only just nearing three months i do not want to use the PUPD technique.
I did not write up her schedule because it is on the mark three hour: 7, 10, 1, 4...  I have ruled out everything and have come to the conclusion that she is just very frusterated because we are teaching her something new. 
But should it be this difficult... i mean 2 hours and no calming? 
any words of advice?
-Janie

Offline albertasweetpea

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Re: VERY frusterated with shhh/pat
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2006, 02:36:20 am »
Hi Janie! It's been awhile since I have had to post regarding shhh/pat but when I read your post it brought me back to all the stress and frustration I felt when sleep training Molly. I totally feel for you and I'm sure most of us here can relate to your feelings of helplessness.

I was wondering what time you are putting your DD down for the night? As soon as you mentioned that she is sleeping well for naps but would not settle for bedtime I immediately thought perhaps she had been awake too long and was overtired? If you could post what time she wakes from her last nap, until you are actually putting her down to bed perhaps someone could suggest whether I am on track regarding the overtiredness or not??

In the meantime, hang in there!! Big hugs to you for trying to get your baby on EASY.  :-* It is definitely hard work in the beginning (we started Molly at 8 weeks and it took about 6 weeks to get her to sleep independently... :-[) but is well worth it in the end! She now will go down without a fuss and will sleep wherever we take her. She is such a happy, well adjusted baby and I know most of it is due to the Baby Whisperer techniques.

Take care.  8)
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Offline BabyBsMommy

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Re: VERY frusterated with shhh/pat
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2006, 02:42:38 am »
I know the book says 3 months is too young for pu'pd and people on the site advised me of that too, but shh/pat wasn't working anymore for our now 14 week old (he was 12 weeks when this first started) so out of desperation, I tried pu'pd to see what would happen.  It worked!  Be advised, though, that the first few times (or more  :P) that you do it, your lo will likely cry for at least 40 minutes!  This is what we did in short -

Since he cries the second we close the blinds (the beginnig of sleep time routine), we lay him in the crib and swaddle him waist down and pick him up again.  He will scream, thrash, grab our hair, burrow his face into us, bop his head on our shoulder and kick and push off with is legs but we try to hold out and keep him there until he stops all the while gently patting his back and shhing softly, or speaking quietly and confidently, it's ok, you're just tired, we're just going to sleep, etc.  We have to wait until the gasps have almost stopped and then we put him down, still speaking softly and keep a hand on his chest for a few minutes.  If he starts to cry on the way down or when he gets put down, we leave him for a minute or two with our hand on his chest and speaking to him softly and sometimes this is enough to settle him.  If not, we'll pu and start over again.  Know too that you should take a break for both of your sakes after 40 min by taking baby out of the room for about 10 and then start again.  At the beginning, we had to do this but now it usually only takes 15 min (remember we're only a short time into this) and sometimes less.  We find the later in the day it gets, the more overtired he is, so the longer we have to spend at it.
Hope this helps!  Let me know if you have any questions!
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Offline teezee

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Re: VERY frusterated with shhh/pat
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2006, 02:59:49 am »
have you tried just the shhing or just the patting for your lo. sometimes doing both as they get older a bit is too stimulating..even shhing with a hand on lo not moving though may show some improvement - just a thought.
Tawnya
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Offline Janie

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Re: VERY frusterated with shhh/pat
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2006, 14:37:34 pm »
thank you for the prompt replies.  I read them last night before going to bed and felt better about the day ahead. 
I have always had trouble setting an early bedtime actualy.  We worked at giving her an earlier bedtime from day one (5am the first few weeks home, now about 10pm... and now 11pm with the time change).  I always try to start getting her down after a 7:00/7:30 feed, but after two hours of trying with no success in the past, i have always feed her again, and then she has gone down.  I recall the book saying that if nap times get longer (yesterday all her naps were longer and i worked on extending them), then night time gets better.  Tonight i will try very hard to have a calm evening, with a mellow routine, because yes, i bet she is overtired. 

Thank you for advising pu/pd.  I will be using it when she is hysterical to calm her down.  40 minutues of that sounds dreamy compared to shh/pat for an hour.  That makes me optimistic! 

This morning i got her down for her nap no problem in her crib while shhing and mostly blocking stimulation by covering her eyes and stroking her head.  Now we are wokring on extending naps.  I think the day will go well and i will use all the tips for the fussier nighttimes.
Thank you, and any more suggestions or thoughts are very welcome!

Offline BabyBsMommy

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Re: VERY frusterated with shhh/pat
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2006, 19:15:04 pm »
Keep us posted!  Our lo slept from 9:15pm - 5:45 am with a df (the first he ever took after lots of tries - yeehaw! 5 oz) - he awoke from 2-3 but wasn't hungry, I patted and shhed in the crib while he nodded off and startled himself 3 times during that hour.  Slept again after 5:45 am feed until 9:00am - nice but would rather him go to bed a little earlier and wake up earlier so we have a little time to ourselves in the evening - lately he is taking close to an hour to go to sleep at bedtime and he used to go to sleep between 7:30-8:00 in less than 20 min!  Hopefully it will get earlier!
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Offline owelley

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Re: VERY frusterated with shhh/pat
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2006, 22:30:36 pm »
thank you for the prompt replies.  I read them last night before going to bed and felt better about the day ahead. 
I have always had trouble setting an early bedtime actualy.  We worked at giving her an earlier bedtime from day one (5am the first few weeks home, now about 10pm... and now 11pm with the time change).  I always try to start getting her down after a 7:00/7:30 feed, but after two hours of trying with no success in the past, i have always feed her again, and then she has gone down.  I recall the book saying that if nap times get longer (yesterday all her naps were longer and i worked on extending them), then night time gets better.  Tonight i will try very hard to have a calm evening, with a mellow routine, because yes, i bet she is overtired. 

Thank you for advising pu/pd.  I will be using it when she is hysterical to calm her down.  40 minutues of that sounds dreamy compared to shh/pat for an hour.  That makes me optimistic! 

This morning i got her down for her nap no problem in her crib while shhing and mostly blocking stimulation by covering her eyes and stroking her head.  Now we are wokring on extending naps.  I think the day will go well and i will use all the tips for the fussier nighttimes.
Thank you, and any more suggestions or thoughts are very welcome!

Janie, I use earplugs and with them I can ssh/pat in peace and dd eventually yawns and shuts her eyes.  I then  stop patting (I pat her chest bcuz she's on her back) and shhh softer and softer until I stop and she's asleep.  I don't keep patting or sshhing but I do stay till I'm sure she's fast asleep.  What I do is I count to 50.  If she moves or opens her eyes a bit I restart my count.  Have u had any luck with pu/pd??
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Re: VERY frusterated with shhh/pat
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2006, 02:07:25 am »
lol, I do the counting, too!  ;D
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Offline KellyC

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Re: VERY frusterated with shhh/pat
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2006, 19:06:06 pm »
Hi Janie

Sorry you're having such a rough time.

I know you didn't want to post your routine but I really think there might be something in there we can tweak to help you.  It's a little strange that your LO is doing better with naps than with bedtime because it usually works out the other way around and this makes me think you're probably right in suspecting that he's over-tired at bedtime.

The difference between shush/pat and PU/PD is that shush/pat is a way of comforting your baby, whereas PU/PD is a method to teach your baby to self-soothe.  The reason we don't use PU/PD with a baby younger than around 4 months is that they're developmentally unable to self-soothe so it won't work.  You're more likely to cause more problems if you attempt it because it will overstimulate and upset your baby, particularly if you're already dealing with an over-tired and/or over-stimulated screaming mess!

Are you following the 4S wind-down routine?  I'm wondering whether you could be putting your LO down too soon (this is the opposite to what we'd suggest with an older LO using PU/PD as they should be put down as soon as they're calm so they can learn to put themselves to sleep).  With the 4S routine you swaddle your LO and sit with them quietly for up to 5 minutes holding him in a vertical position.  The aim is then to put your LO down before he is in a deep sleep (so you may hold him for less than 5 minutes if he starts to fall asleep quite quickly) but you wait until he's fully relaxed and starting to descend into sleep (you feel his body relax, he might jerk a bit, his eyes may be closed).  It's not until this point that you'd say your goodnights and lay him down.  If you're using a paci I would suggest using your paci as part of this 5 minute sitting to help ensure your LO is calm before you lie him down, rather than trying to give him the paci when he's upset. 

If your LO is already crying during the 5 minute sitting then you use shush/pat in your arms.  You're already holding him in a vertical position so you can pat his back (hard and in the centre) and shush fairly loudly so it can be heard above your cries.  We found that at about 12 weeks shush/pat started to have a greater effect than it had when Zander was younger but that he also started thrashing about alot at bedtime too.  I used to sit on the bed with my knees up and hold his legs between my knees to keep them still - anything that helped to pin him down and stop him throwing himself about!  Once he's calm you don't put him down straight away but wait for him to fully relax as explained above and you keep doing the shush/pat all this time.  We also used to shush/pat for maybe 5 minutes after I'd put Zander in his crib and he'd been calm but then I'd stay putting pressure on his body until I'd felt the 20 minute jolt, otherwise he'd wake at that point. 

If he's calm during the 5 minute sitting but starts crying when you put him down you can try shush/pat in the crib (patting on the chest if that's working) but if he doesn't calm quite soon you pick him up and do the shush/pat in your arms until you're at the point where he's starting to descend into sleep.  You could end up holding him in your arms quite alot during the process - a younger baby needs this to be comforted, which is quite different to PU/PD. 

Have you read the post on how to do shush/pat and Tracy's sleep interview?  Here are the links;

https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=26671.0

https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=451.0


Also, there's no reason why you can't take a short break after 40 minutes of doing shush/pat if you're making no progress.  Leave the room for as long as it takes to calm your LO down enough for you to start again (and feed if necessary).

Let us know how things are going and do please come back with your routine and we'll try and figure something out together.

Kelly x



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Offline BabyBsMommy

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Re: VERY frusterated with shhh/pat
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2006, 20:50:09 pm »
Kelly -
Thanks for the post on what to do if your lo is crying during the 5 min quiet time as part of the 4S wind down!  Our 14.5 week old has been crying the second he goes up to our shoulder ever since we started EASY with him at 7 weeks.  We didn't know how to handle that and have tried tons of things at that point which I'm sure has confused him! (putting him down and soothing in crib, pu/pd because sshh/pat wasn't working anymore, not crying it out, though!) - now I have a new strategy for calming him before he goes down in bed and it has made me decide to try the shh/pat while I hold him again since you mentioned it seemed to work better for Zander starting at 12 weeks.  We just finished a stint of 4 days with his hands out of the swaddle thinking that maybe that's why he cries and struggles so much at nap and bedtimes as he found his hands around the same time we started EASY.  That was a bomb!  We went back to swaddling last night and he slept 9pm - 4:15 am with a df of 4 oz (the second night in a row he FINALLY took a df!) and wake up at 7:45.  Dreamy!  Also, his naps today back in the swaddle were 1 hour 15 min each and he is currently down for his third.  Each one only took 10 min to settle but I really want to get him to be calm BEFORE he goes down!  I read in someone else's post that they did the dressing and massage after bath in the nursery to help calm before bedtime with soft music and dim lights, I'm going to try that tonight, too!
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Offline KellyC

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Re: VERY frusterated with shhh/pat
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2006, 21:07:53 pm »
Hi BabyBsMommy

I took one of Zander's hands out of his swaddle at about your LO's age too and quickly put it back in again, lol!  We finally took one arm out a few weeks later and the other arm a few weeks after that, he just slept better with the swaddle for longer than we expected he'd need it.  You will probably find that shush/pat develops into PU/PD over the next few weeks but to begin with you're still holding your LO for up to four or five minutes and can use shush/pat still whilst you're holding.  You're welcome to come back for some more advice when that happens - I remember it all too well!!

Kelly x
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Re: VERY frusterated with shhh/pat
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2006, 00:39:10 am »
 ;D I remember reading in one of Tracy's books her recount of the mom who duct-taped her lo into the swaddle and I can totally understand how she got to that point after 8 weeks of holding Brenden down in his - NEVER would actually do it but....lol!  I know someday I'll look back and laugh at this or maybe even forget all about it!!!!  I will definitely be back for more advice as the nap/sleep monsters come and go!  I was going to try the shh/pat at catnap time but it was taking so long he would have gone right to bed for the night so I stopped, he had a feed and is having a bath with dad right now.  I'm going to do it for bedtime, though....
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Offline Janie

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Re: VERY frusterated with shhh/pat
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2006, 16:44:19 pm »
First, thank you for lots of words of wisdom. 
In response to kelly, in the past i have only been sitting with her during wind up time for about 5 minutes, at which point she is still looking around the room, but calm and sometimes sucking her paci.  Then i place her in the crib, and if it is nap time she goes down in 10-45 minutes.  in that time she usualy throws her legs up and down, wiggles her head around, closes and opens her eyes, squeezes them shut tightly and then pops them open, someties has a few fussy cries for maybe 5-10 minutes, sometimes none... things like that (which all tell me she is trying to calm herself and relax).  If it is bed time she goes through fussy cries, which then escilate into incredbly loud cries.  Tonight we tried pu/pd for 1.5 hrs, with no sucess, so she ate again (at about 9:30 which sometimes is bedtime feeding, and other times is just followed by a cat nap.  She is usualy in bed at the lastest 11pm).  Then we started over, with a nice wind down, sitting calmly, and then going into the crib.  At this point she stayed in the crib for about 10 minutes before her fusses turned into serious cries (she got very red, sweaty, and trembled).  We started pu/pd again with no results after another 30 minutes.  At that point i left the room while my husband stayed with her, just holding her.  I read your response that we can hold her in our arms until she is VERY relaxed, perhaps ever almost asleep, but still with her eyes open???  Just wanted to be sure that this is what you are saying.  Even if it exceeds 5 minutes, during wind down time i can hold her upright, pat/shhing, until she is drowsy and relaxed, and then place her in her crib?  I went and told my husband this, and he left the room and is holding her, with a soother, but he is holding her horizontal.  It has taken about another 20 minutes for her to calm down since leaving the room.  he just put her in the crib.
 I am so confused right now because it seems that holding her until she is almost asleep is teaching her to sleep in our arms, but i don't feel comfortable doing pu/pd when she gets so worked up that she is gasping for air, trembling and sweating.  I know this takes lots of hard work, and lots of crying, but i will honestly say that if my husband were not here doing this i would have given up on trying this at bed time (again, naps are easy.. she is a little weirdo :)

sooo, here is her routine, give or take a little with activity times and length of time to fall asleep
Oh yeah, she is breast fed:
7 eat
7:45 done: activity (activities through out the day include:lying on floor looking around or lying in crib under mobile or sitting in a play seat thing that doesn't bounce or lying on lap interacting with mom and dad)
8:00 first yawn
8:45-asleep (usualy wakes up after half an hour, but i have succesfully been extending her naps!)
10 eats
10:45 done: activity
11:15 yawn.. time for wind down
12:00 asleep
1 eats
1:45 activity (i sometimes go for a walk at this time; she will then sleep in her stoller during this nap, but she is not dependant upon it)
2:00-15 yawns... off to nap time
3:00 asleep
4:00 eats
4:45 activity
5:15 cat nap time (sometimes she does not actualy get to sleep by the next feed)
6: Eat (still cluster feeding because my milk supply is just enough if i allow her to eat every 2 hours at night)
6:45 bath time
7:00 nap
8: eats
8:45 straight to bed (if she falls asleep at this time she usualy wakes up again at about 9:30/10, at which point i feed her again in place of a dream fed.  There have been maybe a dozen times when she has stayed alseep for the night, and then i pump to dream feed her)
sometimes....
10 eats
10:30 to bed (she is usualy asleep by 11 for the night)

she only wakes up once during the night, after about 4-5 hrs

I do not like her bed time but i have not been able to get it to happen much ealier, so i do indeed think she must be overtired in the night and thus has such trouble calming down.  any bed time thought, or other thoughts from the schedule. 
thanks

Offline BabyBsMommy

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Re: VERY frusterated with shhh/pat
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2006, 16:54:29 pm »
On Kelly's advice, I started holding our lo doing pat/ssh until he is relaxed.  Up until then, I was like you, not sure how long to do it for when holding him and when to put him down.  We started holding him vertical and doing pat/ssh until he calms.  We keep doing it until he is quiet for 4-5 minutes, even better if he is starting to nod off.  Sometimes when we put him in bed, he starts to cry so we pick him up and try again (usually takes very little time the second time) - we make sure he is still a little awake when we put him down so he falls asleep on his own out of his arms - then he isn't becoming dependent on us, we are just soothing him because he can't do it for himself yet.  Most naps have only taken 5-10 min of this.  Yesterday was the second day and it got worse, took 15 min, 20 min and 25 min for naps and 1.5 hours for bedtime!  We took a break after 40 min at bedtime, walked around quietly and then started again.  Today things are better again, it only took 5 min to settle him into bed.  Once he is in bed, we put a gently hand on his chest as he drifts off.  Slowly, we will stop doing that when he doesn't need it anymore!  Hope my experience gives you a little more insight!
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Offline Janie

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Re: VERY frusterated with shhh/pat
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2006, 17:56:23 pm »
I can't express in words the refreshing feeling i have after reading these repsonses and knowing that THIS IS NORMAL.  There certainly is comfort in normalizing situations for people.  I feel alot more confident today knowing i have more tools for bedtime tonight.  babybsmommy, thanks for mentioning that our babies won't become dependant on us even if we soothe them in our arms for a while.  As i was reading the beginning of that reply that was the first thought that came to mind! I am glad to know that you have had more success with your lo too!  I am not looking forward to the relapse that i am sure is to follow with my lo, but i would rather be aware that it is coming that surprised and discouraged.
 I just finished extending a nap, so i have a few minutes to myself now.  I am going to fix something for lunch.  I will post how things go tonight.
Again, thanks!