confused! need input...

[nathansmum]

Hi again!
I've been wondering a lot lately... I don't know what the problem is, or if there is any... and I don't know where to start... Please give me input.

DS has been waking around 9:00 - 10:00 lately. As I looked back tonight, I realized that it is always almost 3 hours from his last feed before bedtime. What could this mean? Sometimes we are able to resettle him, other times not. We usually do a DF between 10:30-11:00. Although I am starting to think that he is waking out of hunger... and have therefore started feeding him when he wakes at that time.

Also, I used to pump to give him is DF and would average 4 oz and that is still what I can express (I know not necessrily a real indicator of production). But we recently started formula for the DF to be able to store a little of my milk to eventually only go back to BM. We have slowly increased the amount and tonight, he was able to take a whole 8 oz! Could I not be feeding him enough during the daytime if he needs to take in that much? Is he waiting out in the day to compensate at his DF? Is it a supply issue?
Last night my mom was watching him and we decided we didn't want to complicate things for her and told her to just feed him when he woke. Well, he woke 3 hours from his last feed and she gave him a bottle (9:20pm) and when we got home we also gave him a DF!! So he ended up eating 2x 160ml (a little over 5 oz)!

DS had also been waking in the night, we used to go in to resettle and same thing, sometimes it worked, other times not... We thought it might have been a self soothing issue, so taught him to go down w/ o paci. Well, he kept waking but would usually resettle himself within 5 min. Well, last night w/ that unusually full tummy, we didn't hear a single peep!

DS is on a 4 hour easy that was going great the 1st week but then started going off on us... The first week was perfect! up 2 hours, down about 2 hours, and then, suddenly he couldn't stay up the full 2 hours...  If it would have been only a day or so where he is more tired it would have been fine and he would have slept untill his next feed, or close right? But no! he would sleep 1h10 and then wake up and be hard to settle!  If I think about it now it might have been 3hours or 3.5 after his last feed... Could it be a GS? This is soooo hard to tell since we still deal w/ 45 min naps and sometimes the 45 min. mark coincides w/ the 3 hour mark... Sometimes he will resettle (especially the 1st week we were on 4 hour easy) but now more often than not he wont resettle... (more so in the afternoon). And for the past 2-3 days, we have been having a hard time putting him to bed for the night. He shows tired signs but then won't go down for 30-50 min.

I'm a little confused right now and don't know what to do... What do you see in all this? Should I try feeding a little more often during the day to increase my milk supply and see if all he needs is more calories? If so, should I go about it by going back to 3 or 3.5 easy thus messing up our 4 hour routine or could I go to a kind of 2 hour E but keep the 4 hour routine (ie: EAES-EAES-etc...)?

By the way, sorry this is soooooo long!

[First Time Mom]

Hi Marilyn,

Thought I'd give your questions a shot!

Waking 3 hours after a feed sounds like hunger, I would feed at this time 10ish and skip the df. Since he's waking for it I would bf instead of the bottle, helping your supply at the same time. This would technically total 2 nw feeds for him and this is not unusual for the age.

I think giving formula for the df will eventually decrease supply especially if you want to go back to bm, you need to pump more or get him to feed more to increase supply, if you bf when he wakes this would take care of it. Milena was on 5 feeds once she cut out night feeds (which are back now) and sometimes she fusses and I feel supply is low so I go back to 7 feeds for a bit and get her to feed longer, also feed her one side until drained, then the other, then I put her back on the first. Doing this does seem to increase supply (i'm not a pumper). My experience from when Milena was born and the hospital told me to give formula is that bf babies will take formula right after bfing weither or not they are actually hungry, I think it's because they are not used to the quick flow of formula from a bottle.

His day sleep may possibly not be related to the feeds- could need longer A time and I would try to slightly delay his bedtime. At this age their naps are not 100% and they are getting closer to the age when they need less nap time in the day and longer A time. Milena used to nap well when we started 4 hour but now she has a good morning one and decent 2nd and the 3rd is sometimes a struggle, A time is much longer even in the past 6 weeks.

No to the EAES because then you're teaching to eat before sleep (exception would be a nw feed). Try EAEAS, 2 shorter A times in there with the feeds so that the feed is not beside the sleep. Another possibility is to do a combo of 3-4 hour easy. We did this for the longest time- 4 hour, 4 hour, 3 hour, 3 hour, and 1 nw feed as I think my supply was at it's lowest for the 3 and 6pm feed.

[JacobMarksMummy]

I'd second feeding him his DF whenever he wakes in the evening , even if it is a little airlier than sugeested in tracys book. I would try and use BM for this feed as it will help to up your supply and he might be taking more formula due to the constant flow of a bottle, babies that BF can stop eating when they are full whereas with a bottle the milk pours out with no way for them to control it. It is also quite common for babies due to hit the six month mark to up thier milk intake for a couple of months until they are older and solids become a more staple part of thier diet. If you think he must be more active now so he needs more milk to eat.

Definatkly dont nurse before bedtime as this could lead to a whole load of new issues regarding sleep association with the breast. Dont worry too much about time still as my DS was very scatty with his routin until aroung 7/8 months then things seemed to fall into place by themsleves, hope answer some of your questions!

[nathansmum]

what about the fact that he didn't wake the night he had 2 bottles of 5oz in a 2 hour interval? Don't you think that this would mean I need to increase my supply by feeding him a little more often during the day for a few days? Or should I go back to cluster feeding, which I know tracy says to only do during a growth spurt?

[First Time Mom]

Marilyn, I asked the same thing in our b-day thread! Milena had 2 solid wks of no night wakes then started again. I thought by increasing the day's quantity I could get her to sleep through again but by going back to solid 3 hour plus df she fussed at feeds and I don't think she took any more in total, thus my same question about introducing cluster feeding again. I tried it for 3 days and she still woke at night yet fussed something awful during the cluster feeds. Past 2 days she didn't nw yet was back to 4 hour and a total of only 5 feeds but perhaps my supply had increased by her extra sucking the days prior.

 My thought is that they will take in the day what their stomachs will hold and cannot be forced to take more and that they will sleep through the night when they're good and ready. I think until then it's a scattering of sleeping through mixed with nights of waking as their systems sort themselves out. I'm sort of doing a combo of 4 hour feeds yet at the same time almost a "feed on demand" meaning if she has a nw I'll feed, if she gets hungry before 4 hours, I'll feed, everyone is against the "FOD" but that's because people go overboard w/ it and feed for every tear even if it includes 4 nws which wouldn't be hunger but other issues or feeding 40 minutes after the last feed. FOD can blend with 4 hour EASY, Tracy outlines the 3 or 4 hour EASY but always did say to listen to their cues.

You could try to cluster feed and/or go back to 3 hour temporarily as I did to see if it makes a difference for you, if anything it may increase the supply. Switching back to the 4 hour after is easy afterwards. Keep in mind if your supply increases but he goes back to a lesser amount your supply will decrease accordingly as we make only what they need.

[x95stocchier]

Marilyn-
DS (born dec 10) had a similar day yesterday, and wanted to eat ALL the time in the afternoon.  I am starting to believe in the 4.5 mo growth spurt!  I will be interested in what the next 2 or 3 days bring.  Anyway, I have followed a lot of Marian's advice, and it's helped.  I think she has some more good advice for you above.

since ds was waking around df time anyway, I just started feeding him then.  I decided 2 night feedings are ok by me, since bf baby and not uncommon.  I plan to try to work one out eventually, but that's just my opinion for now.  DS usually wakes 3-4 hours after last feed.  I have started cluster feeding in the evening, though. 

Good points about increasing supply, though.  I think I'll try the 3 breast approach with ds and I'll let you know how it works out for us, though I'm afraid he might just spit it up...he's still working on stretching his little tummy for the 4 hr EASY.

good luck Marilyn and let me know what you end up doing/how it works.

[First Time Mom]

Sarah, I would be very interested in hearing how the 3 breast approach works Just kidding, I knew what you meant .

Just wanted to mention that Ami added a thread on sleep times impacting nws back on our b-day thread.  For 2 nights Milena fussed at bed time and went down 30 minutes late, both nights she woke before her df and she never does this so I think there may possibly be a relation to a late bed time and waking before a df.

[nathansmum]

the thing is, that i usually don't feed Nathan in the night... unless he really can't resettle. Anyway, I think I'll just ride this out and see what happens. Like everything else I guess. Nathan isn't in pain or anything right?
thanks ladies!