help, i'm loosing steam

[cheriec]

hi
i need objective advice.  my 5 month old son is waking constantly through out the night. i'm exhausted and discouraged.  he falls asleep in his crib without any props, but wakes often in the night.  last night he went to bed at 7 and woke 7 times in the night.  we've been doing pupd with patting and shushing since last thursday, but no improvement in night wakings, i think they're worse..  naps are getting worse too,  he's been on mostly a 3 hour easy, breastfed and just starting solids.  changing to a 4 hr is my last idea. will this help??? please someone tell me changing from 3 to 4 hr easy solved all your night waking problems!!!

[cheriec]

Here's our schedule  He's 5 months and about 18 lbs--big guy

wake at 7ish
E  7:30
A
S 8:30 or 9 (~1hr)
E 10:30
A
S 11:30 or 12 (usu about 2 hrs with 1 waking)
E 1:30
A
S anywhere from 3-5 depending on earlier nap (usu 1 hr,)
E 5
A  bath
S 7
DF 8:30

he falls asleep pretty quickly, but wakes often.  just starting solids, he'll eat <1TB with breakfast and <1TBat supper
our bedtime routine is pretty simple as he falls asleep quickly....a little quiet floor play, swaddle with one hand out, a quick rocking (his eyes close almost as soon as i sit down), then in bed awake but drowsy
thanks

[yaya]

Could it be anything developmental like teething etc? how is he at these wakings and what do u do?

[teezee]

def a 4 hr easy should solve most if not all of your problems! if lo waits til he is very hungry to eat - which he is able to do now that he is older than it should help sustain his belly longer through the night. as well as eating times, A times will also increase making sure your lo is tired enough to go down for naps.

i would definately hold off til 6 months to start with the cereal, esp if you haven't already extended the 3 hr routine as starting cereal now could cause gastric problems and / or excess gas, and even inhibit the amount of daytime milk/formula your lo gets causing lo to wake in the night for feedigns kwim? anyway, imo, as someone who listened to everyone else and started dd on solids early - it was a HUGE mistake and i can't stress enough that it would be wise of you to wait!

if you could also post your daily routine? bedtime routine? that would be helpful!

[teezee]

i see that you just posted your daily routine!

def start moving slowly to a 4 hr routine (or whatever lo can handle more or less time if needed).

the catnap should be that - a catnap -esp at this point. too long of an evening nap could cause problems with nights.

the df is usually done at a later hr when lo is hungrier - 1.5 hrs after lo goes to sleep won't really help him get through the night very much and may cause more wakings as he is probably just getting into a nice deep sleep.  have you tried the df at a later hr say 10 or 11pm? is lo still sleeping when you do the df?? if you go to sleep earlier and that's why you do the df earlier maybe forgo the df for a few nights and see if/how many times lo wakes as opposed to having one.

[yaya]

oooh can I add a df question?
ds has his last feed at 7.15ish and then I df at 10 (barely keep my eyes open any longer than this!!) Is this not going to be effective? Does it need to be later?

[cheriec]

i'm so glad to hear that this could help! thanks so much for the advice.  so you think i should cut the cereal for now huh?

at night when he wakes, i first go in and pat and shush.  often that helps. but then he;s up again shortly.  if it doesn't i pick him up, take him over to the rocker (without rocking) and settle him down in a couple of minutes, then back to the bed with a little more patting if necessary.  

no teething that i can notice, he's not sick and doesn't appear to be having tummy troubles

also, throw me a bone here , any estimate on how long before the night wakings ease up after going to a 4 hr??  

[teezee]

sometimes it helps right away or at least you will notice a distinct difference soon after i think - it made a world of differnce when we did it! i would be hesitant about bringing lo to the rocker even if not rocking - lo still has that warm, loving contact with you and may also be waking to have that comfort..which isn't bad if you don't mind waking at night to do this. you should really check out the pu/pd board they would be a big help as i think that is what you and your lo would benefit from with this particular situation. do you have tracy's newest book?

yaya - i do think the 10pm for a df is fine - if it's working there is no need to worry! df's aren't for every baby - it works or it doesn't kwim?

[yaya]

No idea if it works the little lamb wakes constantly all night!! I do it coz he eats very little during the day so try to get a few more oz in him while he sleeps

[teezee]

yaya- how many times is he eating through night? have you tried dropping the df and seeing if that is maybe better?

[cheriec]

quick question, then i'll check out the pu/pd boards...for the pick up part, do you just pick him up and stand there next to the crib with him till he calms?? i've been going over to the rocker to sit every single time. i was trying to be consistant with our bedtime routine.  could be my downfall:)

[yaya]

Sorry to butt in on ur post!
I think if u r rocking him this will become a prop! I would just hold him still

[cheriec]

no apologies necessary...

also, what's kwim?

[teezee]

know what i mean..kwim?

anyway, yes you would stand with lo not rocking or patting...just standing and holding as soon as lo stops crying put him down, if on the way down he starts crying lay him down long enough to put your hands by your sides and do it again...and again...and again...draining for the first day or two or three but it is very well worth the results in the end!

[yaya]

cheriecoco...
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=56213.0

[cheriec]

it gets very confusing, and it's all in the details.  i bet you get tired of repeating yourself so often.  thanks so much.  i really appreciate it.  i will waste no time trying all of these things.


thanks yaya (chuckle) didn't know there was a dictionary to this jargon 

[yaya]

I still have to keep looking most of these up! let us know how u get on!

[teezee]

no problem! that's what we are here for!..it's def not a waste of time for me if you are willing to try something new and think a little 'outside' the box..kwim?! good luck and please do keep us updated! good luck hun!

[cheriec]

we had a great night!! i'm so pleased.  i took all of your suggestions, we did the 4 hr easy yesterday, no cereal, no df, no rocker....

he went to bed at 7, woke at 11 and 3 to feed went straight back to sleep and slept til 6:30.  i can't tell you how much i need those stretches of sleep. today i am one happy mama!

[teezee]

good for you guys! way to go!! i'm soo happy for you hun! keep up the great work!!!!!

[cheriec]

okay, 1st night after going to 4 hr went great. the next day (yesterday) went okay, but afternoon naps were messed up due to my older son's t-ball practice and last night, we seemed back to square 1.  today, we've still been doing the 4 hr easy, he hasn't napped very well.  i'm still following all the "rules".  anybody want to give a peptalk?  in tracy's sleep interview, she says that she feels if you go at it really firmly, you should see improvements after 3 days and nights.  anybody have that experience??

[cheriec]

also,  any advice on finding a balance between keeping on schedule with naps on days when you feel he'll be overtired by then. does it create more problems if he's overtired or if he get's off his 4 hr easy?

[gavinsmum]

Just to give you some hope - I was you 1 month ago.  Now DS is sleeping much better.  He goes down at 7:30 ish, DF at 10 and gets up at 6 - 6:30 ish.  Our nights were dreadful when we were rocking him to sleep everytime he woke.  We were exhausted.  I know it is not popular, but we finally let hime cry it out.  He was consictantly waking around 4 am and would sleep in our arms but wake as soon as we put him down.  He cried two mornings in a row, and has been fantastic since.  Lucky for us he didn't cry too hard.  On and off mostly.  I wouldn't have beedn able to stand it if he were in there wailing.  It was almost like he was telling us he needed to learn to do it himself.  Anyway, just wanted to let you know that there is hope - It won't be long and you'll all be sleeping.  Good luck!

[cheriec]

gavinsmum,

i just let out a little "yippee"when i read your post.  i'm so glad for you and your lo, but i'm also glad to know that it'll get better soon.

stacy,
i'm still feeding him at night if he wakes after 4 hrs, i agree that i can't be sure yet that it's not hunger.  i'm also starting to think that the overtiredness is sabotaging us at times.  i'm going to work on longer naps.

thanks ladies,  i knew i would feel better after hearing from some of you

[cheriec]

5 wake-ups last night. i think i fed him to much in thenight.  he woke up at about the 3 hr marks and i fed him.  i guess i should try to keep his night feedings to 4 hrs until we get a little more settled into out 4 hr easy.

i think i will work on naps today.  good naps=good night sleep, right??

[teezee]

gavinsmum - you are right CIO is not a popular thing around here...tracy did not, bw does not, none of us advocate CIO in any way shape or form! when you let a lo CIO you are only showing them that they cannot trust you and it will eventually break the bonds of trust between parent and child. not only will you have to repair the trust (very, very hard and tedious work!) but you will still have to deal with the original problem thereafter...really not worth it imo!!!

there is a distinct difference between a lo CIO and a lo settling themselves.  CIO is when a lo is crying desperately for you - i think everyone can honestly say they know that 'I NEED YOU NOW MOMMY' cry when they hear it - and you should absolutely go to your lo if they need you - that's why we are parents - to give our lo's what they need! if a lo is mantra crying, or settling himself/herself it is ok to let them 'fuss' or cry out a bit as long as when it escalates to the other you go in and be there for your child who is trying to communicate his/her needs to you.

[teezee]

cheriec - i just wanted to add that many times (more than not) there is regression after some change and that is TOTALLY normal. keep consistant with what you were doing as you were obviously on the right track!  

perhaps you can take a week to be totally consistant with naps, bedtimes, etc so lo gets used to the routine and is 'set' in it kwim? could someone else help (anyone?) with you other lo's outings?

[cheriec]

teezee, i 'm glad to hear that.  i was beginning to wonder. he woke last night again at the 3 hr marks and i fed him.  but he went right back to sleep each time.  he's doing okay at naps.  i've been making sure to get him down before he gets overtired.  he goes off to sleep quick, but wakes at the 45min mark, so we'll keep working on that.  during the day he's doing really well on the 4 hr easy, so i guess we'll just give it a week or so and see how he settles in .  thanks again!

[teezee]

if you could post your routine now that you are on 4hrs i may be able to see something that may help hun?!

[cheriec]

wake ~7am
E  7
A
S 9-11 (usually with a lot of wake ups after 45min...if he's woken, i try to keep putting him back to sleep til 10:45 or so)
E 11
A
S  1-3 (usually with a lot of wake ups after 45 min..if he's woken, i try to keep putting him back to sleep til 2:45 or so)
E  3
A
S 5-5:30
E6:30 or 6:45
bed at 7

he's been waking every 3 hours or so during the night.

thanks teezee

[teezee]

stacy - i do agree with you about the catnap...but it appears that lo is getting the catnap from 5-5:30...

the only thing i could possibly think of is lo isn't tired enough for the nap and maybe is 'rested' by the time it's 45 min into the nap and therefore not perhaps getting appropriate amounts of daytime sleep b/c of it??!! what do you think? what if you tried stretching that morning A time another 15 min and same thing with the pm. might be worth a try anyway.

how long has lo been having night wakings for now? (forgive me if you have already mentioned this..) is it relatively a new thing or has it been ongoing for some time now?? could it be something in your diet giving lo an upset belly??

[teezee]

lol - no problem! i had to look twice too..i think all everyone's routine's are blending in my mind! anyway, i do think that twelve hrs at night is a long stretch - it wasn't until a couple months ago my dd started doing 11hrs at night and has been pretty consistant with that..or 10.5 hrs 

[gavinsmum]

What woorked for us was actually eliminating that 5pm cat nap.  Gavin is up now from 3 pm until 7:30.  It is his longest strech and sometimes he seems so tired that I don't think he'll make it - but he does.  I never dreamed he'd make it that long but it worked for us.  He now takes two long naps or three short ones depending on the day.  Totalling abot 3 hours of naps.  It wasn't long ago that he was taking 4 - 5  30/45  minute naps.  No wonder he was waking at night - he was sleeping a lot durring the day.  What get hairy is if his naps are moved up too early.  If wakes from his last nap at 2:30 the evening can be really tough.  Good luck!

[cheriec]

thanks gavinsmum,

i may try that.  but first a question to the group.  can overcoming the 45 min naps fix the problem of night wakings?  a couple of times i've gone in at about 35 min and when i see him start to squirm, i place a firm hand on him and it seems to help.  maybe once he can sleep through the 45min mark at naps, he'll sleep through some of the non-hunger night wakings.  any thoughts

[teezee]

could def help. good for you for trying! if it doesn't at least you will have one problem solved and can eliminate that from your list of 'could be's' kwim? let us know how things go the next few days.

[cheriec]

extending the naps is going okay.  5 wakes ups last night.  can it happen that babies begin to need the patting to go to sleep?  all this time i've been putting him down on his side and patting his bottom if needed.  so now when he wakes in the night, if i roll him to his side and pat, he finds his thumb and usually goes off (maybe to wake again in 30 miin or an hour). should i cut out the patting and maybe just stand next to the bed and shush instead?

[teezee]

you could try it or try patting less each time - not til lo is totally sleeping...