anyone want to chat about the 2-1 nap switch?

[aisling]

Hi all,

We are new to this thread, but not new to many of you. I am hoping you all can help support me.  We have been on 2 naps until this past week and have begun the transition process.  BTW, we are the last in my IRL Mummy Baby group and pretty much in my BW birth club to transition it seems. 

Some background: Nello is extremely active and never stops.  He started walking at 10 months. We just got through a horrible disrupted period that probably took almost 3 months to finally settle down from.  8 teeth in 8 weeks (4 molars and 4 eye teeth) which brought- night wakings, early wake ups, SA, fear of sleeping in crib, not eating etc....etc....Thankfully, all our hard BW work was not erased, and Nello is back to his old self. PHEW!!!

2 naps worked great for him and since around 10 months we have been doing the short a.m 30 min cat nap, followed by the 1.5 hour nap in the p.m.  Up until this last week, the a.m nap was welcomed (he tuckers himself out!) and he would go down in the p.m no problem.  He does not do well with over tired and I loved the 2 naps, I am sorry to see them go.  We have had days on and off in the past month where there has only been 1 nap and I liked Nello's personalty better on 2 naps, he seemed more rested, ate better and dealt with "toddler issues" better, IYKWIM?  This week however, he has been in a fine mood and has been going down well at naps and bed and does not seem overtired at all.  Although, our routine has been way off and really a one off, please see below!

Here is this weeks routine thus far:

Monday:  Still getting over an overtired bout from weekend parties  -Woke crying at 5am, went back to sleep with me resettling and slept until 7:45am.  Nap at 1:00pm but only 1 hour! Bedtime 7pm
Tues: Up at 5am and resettled quickly this time, up at 8:15am!  I let him, to catch up.  Nap at 1:15. slept an hour again.  (I was feeling very discouraged on this day!)  Bed at 7:15
Wed: Up at 5:30am and settled quickly (do you see a pattern here or what?!) up at 8:15am.  Now I am thinking I am crazy letting him still sleep, but he was down in hours and he has never slept this late in his life!  I enjoyed the lay in too, I'll be honest! Went for nap at 1:15 and slept 1.5 hours    bedtime: 7:30pm
Thurs:  No 5am wake up!!  Hooray.  Up at 7am on the nose!   
This is where it goes downhill: Went with DH to Home Depot (Homebase-UK) and fell asleep on way home in car and DH let him sleep until 11:15am from around 10:45  MEN!  Tried putting down for p.m nap at 2:00 and he played in crib and then had a "poopus interuptus"-- so not alseep until 2:45 then slept until 4:15.  Started wind down at 7:15, he was in a fine mood and ready for bed, in his crib by 7:30 but played with his aquarium and luvvy's. Did not fall asleep until 8:15pm!!      

SO, we will see what will happen now.  What do you all do, if your LO falls asleep in car or buggy in a.m, how long would you let them go 10min or so?  Or dance and sing to keep them awake?  LOL!

Many, many thanks all, will report back tomorrow.

Aisling x

 

[x95stocchier]

Sari-I'd say 9:30 Am nap--30 min sleep.  PM nap 12:30-1, judge based on when your lo finally went to sleep/woke from AM nap, but no later than 1.  Since it's such a short AM nap and not even a full sleep cycle, the catnap should be just enough to hold her out till after lunch.  Don't worry it's not a full A time.  I was concerned too, but it only took about 2 days for DS to get in the groove of this new routine.

Kelly-Thanks for the w2s advice.  He went to bed at 6:30 again last night.  I did w2s at 4:30 and he slept till 5:17! Success? Coincidence?  He barely moved but I was afraid to try more b/c I didn't want to wake him.   So would you try again same time tomorrow or juggle the time a bit?
I read a post somewhere (sticky, I think) of a mom who did w2s for early wakes and did it 10 mins later every day.  Anyone know where that is?  I can't find it now.

The only way I know to get him back to sleep (about 50% success rate) on early mornings is to take to bed & nurse, but then he's asleep still sucking...and I got really sore, so for now when he wakes I just do my best to keep him calm & in his crib till 6.

[KellyC]

Deborah - When we started to switch to one nap I actually forgot about A times and used set nap times.  If Zander was more tired than usual I'd get as close to the set nap time as I could without letting him get overtired - a fine balance I know!

Z - I actually think the am catnap does the opposite to perpetuating early morning wakings as if your LO won't take both a long am and pm nap but can't quite make it through until the middle of the day for a pm nap you're likely to get into a cycle of over-tiredness.  Either you do the one nap fairly early and, even if it's a good long nap, the afternoon becomes too long or you have to put them to bed early so they're going to be up early the next day.  Similarly if you try and push them to the middle of the day and they're not ready then you'll probably get a short nap which won't be enough.

You're right that milk early in the morning can become a habit but I think it's important to try not to get into an over-tired cycle and to be able to stick to as close to your set nap times as possible.  I also think breaking an early morning milk habit (by watering it down gradually) is alot easier than to break an early morning waking habit!  I would only stop with this milk feed once your LO is consistently going back to sleep after it which might take as much as 3 or 4 weeks.

If your LO isn't taking the pm nap after the am nap then the am nap is probably too long.  Don't be afraid to shorten it to 20 minutes if 30 minutes seems too much.  I'd actually stop looking at this as a 'proper' nap in itself, more a way of being able to push the main nap out to a better time.  I would also allocate a set time for the nap and, even if your LO hasn't slept during that time or only for some of the time, get them up and get on with the day but do the main nap earlier (say 12/12.15).  If you wait for your LO to fall asleep in the am (which they will eventually!) then it may become too late which will jeaporise the pm nap.

Hope that all makes sense!

Kelly x

[Sadiebird]

Thanks so much to everyone for their input.  I think I have a good plan now for what I'd like to do.  It really does make sense to do a short am cat nap when you think about it.  It's just enough to get them through to that afternoon nap.  My plan is to put Noah down for a 30 minute nap at around 9:30 or 10, unless he wakes early. If he wakes early (around 6), I'll put him down at 9 and let him sleep until 10.  This will set me up so that his morning nap is never past 10:30, which means, he should be ready for a long afternoon nap by 2 at the latest.  Then I can let him sleep until 3:30.  I think I'm going to start journaling my progress too.  Maybe that will help me to better see patterns so I can know if it's time to make any changes.

Thanks everyone for your help.  As much as I feel badly that everyone else is having to go through this difficult transition, it helps so much to be able to bounce ideas off of each other!!!

P.S.  I also have to add that I wish I could give Tracey a hug.  I've had such good success in the last few days with PU/PD.  I don't know what I would have done without it!!

[KellyC]

Hi Sadiebird

Great to hear you're having so much success with PU/PD - and good for you, it's hard work!!

I think your plan sounds great but I'd be careful about giving the pm nap too late, personally I'd go no later than 1pm if you're offering 30 minutes in the morning (maybe 1.30 at a push if the nap isn't finishing until 10.30).  You'll probably find there's a 'window' after lunch when he's nice and full up and fancies a sleep and if you miss that they can get a second wind no matter how tired they 'really' are!!

Good luck, let us know how you're getting on.

Kelly x

[Zaiby]

Yes Kelly it does make sense..

One question though - are you saying that it might take up to 4 weeks for my lo to start going back to sleep after the feed in the morning?  Becuase right now it's hit and miss - sometimes he'll go back to sleep sometimes he won't..so 16 months is not too late to be doing this?
wi/wo doesn't work if they aren't crying or fussing right? Same for Pd?
ANy other suggestions as to how to get him to sleep in?

I think I can't work on the 2-1 nap transition unless I get him to sleep later, don't you think?  Because when he wakes early he most certainly needs 2 naps..OR can I transition and eventually he will wake later?

Like yesterday - he had 30 mins am, 2hr pm, bed at 8 - but woke at 5:10...so today he is on 2 naps again..
One day this week he had one nap at 12-2:30 (perfect I think) but that was because he woke at 7 after a horrible night and early drink of milk...

I guess I'll try the wide awake club and see if they have any ideas...

Thanks!!!
Z

[KellyC]

Hi Z

This is the second time I've replied - the first time Zander kindly turned the PC off for me, a subtle hint maybe?!!

I think the early morning feed is your call.  I can understand some mums would feel like it's a step backwards and if your LO is happy to lie in the dark in their crib until 7am (or whenever you decide wake-up time is) then maybe that's enough to reinforce that it's still night time.  If not (and Zander was never happy to do this!) then the early morning milk feed is a possible solution but you need to be aware that you're likely to have to wean that feed once they're used to the fact that they must go back to sleep if they wake early.  We didn't stop it until Zander was always going back to sleep and then weaned it successfully over just a few nights by watering it down.  To begin with Zander wouldn't always go back to sleep but it did always settle him so he was happy to stay in his cot until wake-up time but if he wasn't we did wi/wo.  You're right, you can only do that if they're upset.

The early wakings are almost certainly due to overtiredness.  If they go to bed and they're really tired and fall straight into a deep sleep they'll have their light sleep later in the night (or early hours of the morning) and often wake at this time feeling refreshed and ready to start the day because they've had their deep sleep earlier in the night.  The key, I think, is to put your LO to bed at a time when they'll chat or play for 5 or 10 minutes before drifting (not falling with a thud!) into sleep and then they'll sleep deeper later in the night.  You may find your LO goes off to sleep really well at a later time so it seems they're not overtired but going off to sleep so well (and quickly) may actually be the root of the early wakings.

When Zander was doing 30 minutes in the am and 2 hours in the pm, even when he was waking between 6 and 7, he was still always in bed by 7pm at the very latest.  For quite some time we stuck to a 6.45 bedtime just to be absolutely sure he wasn't going to be zonked out resulting in an early morning waking.  I would definitely aim for a 7 and not an 8 bedtime because, even if he wakes early the next morning, he's had an extra hour's sleep and it's actually easier to tag extra sleep onto the start of the night than it is onto the end of the night.

Once you've got through the 2-1 transition and have avoided the cycle of overtiredness which often occurs you may well find he sleeps later anyway (Zander definitely does) but it's getting there in the first place that causes us all so many headaches!

Kelly x

[x95stocchier]

Okay-seems lo is set on 1:45 PM naps (30 min AM).  Should I try to extend (ie w2s?), or might this be enough?  He's waking around 1:15/1:20, but mantras quick & goes back to sleep.

Kelly-he woke at 5:17 instead of 5 this AM with my 4:30 w2s!   I'll take 17 extra minutes!  SHould I w2s at same time again or move it 10 min later?

Thanks!   
Sarah

[UNCMomma]

Giving the early AM milk helps us avoid early wakes too.  Once in a while my LO wakes at 4:30 or 5, in which case I promptly go in (after I know it's not just a phantom, quick, cry out) and feed her a tiny 2 oz bottle.  Then she either goes right back to sleep or plays for a short while and then goes back to sleep.  I almost ALWAYS have to wake her at 7:30 when we do this.  It's fine by me b/c I'd rather get up with her for a very short time once a week or less and then sleep on til 7:30!  I only do 2 oz b/c it seems like it's a little enough amount that her body does not depend on it, so most of the time she sleeps through without it, no problem. 

Kelly, your explanation of the early wake due to the heavy sleep at the beginning of the night is the smartest thing I've ever heard!   

[binxyboo]

You could feed kaleb 5 liters of milk and he wont go to sleep.

That is the funniest thing I have read all day

[KellyC]

Blimmin heck - I don't know Stacy    If that's all you're going to get at night I suppose training him to stay in his cot and occupy himself until mummy comes to get him?!  Is he happy to do that Zaiby's mum?  (Sorry I don't know your name!)  I'd always leave Zander in his cot until dot on 7 - sometimes he would fall asleep as late as 2 minutes to 7, lol!  If that happened I'd give him 15 minutes then get him up.  If the milk thing's not for you then don't do it, like I said it's a personal choice but it's not really meant as a prop, more a way of making sure they're feeling satisfied so more likely to sleep and they're not going to start getting hungry closer to wake-up time when they may well fall back to sleep otherwise.  I've probably harped on about this too much so will leave it at that ....

Sarah - glad you saw some improvement!  I personally would try 10 minutes later but it's entirely up to you!  I also found I had to do more than a gentle stir for this to work during the night - sometimes I woke him too much but usually found him fairly easy to re-settle - the complete opposite to whenever that happened when trying to extend at naptime, that was baaaad!

Kelly x

[Zaiby]

At this point Kelly, I'm willing to try anything - and I certainly don't have a problem with offering milk..or keeping him in his crib if that will work..Like Stacy said - he's been an early riser forever...

I wanted to do the 2-1 because of early wakes and long A times between naps leading to later bedtimes...
So what should I do? 

ANd I totally didn't know about the deep sleep part - that's truly great info - thanks...I used to think that the longer he moans himself to bed meant he was overtired..what do I know?lol!.last couple of days he's been sleeping quite quickly so you might have a point there...

So I guess I have to come up with a plan and stick it through...

Thanks everyone for helping...I certainly need all the advice I can get..
BTW my name is Zaibun, lo is Riyan

[aisling]

Hi all,

Nello woke this a.m at 6:50 after last nights bedtime of 8:15pm    Obviously he had 2 naps today.  The a.m was 10-10:30 and the p.m-1:30-3:00.  He was asleep tonight with a bit of struggle by 7:30pm.  He is clearly showing signs of one nap.  I am hoping for 7am wake up and 12:30 nap and 7:15-7:30 bed for tomorrow.  Again, what do you do, if they start to fall asleep en route in the a.m?   How long would you let him go?  It clearly screwed things up for us this week, that 10:45-11:15 car nap with DH!   

Thx again,

Aisling x

[BabyBsMommy]

I leave DS in his crib if he wakes up earlier in the morning and have trained him to do this since about 5 months, even before he was sleeping through the night.  Sometimes he will fall back asleep at almost 7 but much like Kelly, I never let him sleep past 7:15 otherwise it throws our whole day for a loop (unless he's been sick and had a really crazy night, in which case the day is sure to be screwy, anyways!

We are still backed off the 2-1 for now as he's been content once again to go back to 2 naps after his last teething bout and cold.  Two questions though....

1. The past 3 mornings he has woken up happily after a 30 min nap.  Should I treat this as if I had woken him at 30 min and put him down 2.5 hours or so later (would be 1:00-1:30ish) or should I let him go a bit longer to a 3-3.5 A time and put him down between 2:00-2:30.  I have done this the past 2 days and he has gone down relatively quick and slept for at least 1.5 hours in the afternoon.  He has gone down fine at bedtime (7:15ish) but one of the days could have gone down about 20 min earlier.  His night sleep has been fine.

2.  A little off topic but with the deep sleep thing Kelly mentioned (which I think makes great sense!) - DS is always asleep by 7:30 (in bed by 7:15) but we always hear him for a few min around 11pm and then not a peep until close to his wake up time.  Is this a sign he's in a lighter sleep for the first 3-4 hours of the night and those sounds are him transitioning to his deep sleep stage?  Curious.

Miranda

p.s. Hagan, if you check up in here today, say hi to the other Jan/Feb mommies for me, I'm slowly working my way back to ya'll!

[aisling]

Thanks Stacy. 

We are biting the bullet and have officially decided to go with the 1 nap.  Nello is an angel but has a touchy side, especially with sleeping and routine upset.  It took him almost 2 weeks to transition from 3hr EASY to 4hr and it took about that long when we weaned him from swaddling too.  We just got our happy guy back after that horrible bout of his final 16 tooth, am I crazy?  The fighting the afternoon nap and bedtime too late is the deciding clincher though.  I am giving him a snack now in the a.m when he gets sleepy, even though I am not a fan of snacks, but his eating is fab of late.  I of course will watch out for extreme overtiredness though.  I love the 2 naps    but we have to go through this sooner or later I suppose.

Aisling x