When to go in and when to stay out!

[BabyBsMommy]

My lo is almost 4 months old and his night time sleep is still very inconsistent.  Currently, he wakes 1 and sometimes 2 times to feed (1-2 am and 5-6 am if twice, 3-4 am if once) but usually wakes a few more times within an hour or two of a feed so he obviously isn't hungry. We are lucky in some ways in that it takes a lot to get him really crying.  When he has these non-eating wakings, we go in and pat him back to sleep.  This can take anywhere from 5-30 min.  Should we just leave him when he is grunting and squirming and we know he isn't hungry to see if he can go back to sleep on his own?  If so, how long should we wait without intervening?  I don't want to leave him to "cry it out" which is tricky since he rarely wails for any reason.....weird, I know!

[teezee]

bump!

[Kimberly®]

If he isn't crying and he's just grunting and making noise, leave him be Only go in if he's crying. He's learning to resettle himself. After a few nights he'll learn that and no more wake ups like that

HTH

[shannon S]

BabyB'smom,
I have the same question and my lo is 10 months!.  It's wierd how it can still be frustrating if your baby isn't crying.  My lo just played in her crib for an hour and 25 minutes before falling asleep for her nap.  I never know when to go in or not. I went in a couple of times when she got stranded standing up but I could not get her to lay still. I tried a hand on her back, side, rubbing her tummy....everything.  She just cried when I did that. If I left the room to let her play, she was fine.!    ahhhhhh. it is so frustrating because now I have to wake her to go and pick up her dad and so her nap will only be half an hour.
There are other times when I am able to help her sleep.  (just being there with a hand on her) but I'm always wondering if I should be doing that when she wasn't really crying. 
So let's assume that we shouldn't go in when not crying (as suggested).  It is so hard in the middle of the night because I don't know about you but I can't sleep if my lo is awake at any time (while my husband sleeps like a log). 
I have the same concerns in the middle of the night as you. However, I usually do go in and give my lo her paci.  I know that I need to stop doing that at some point.
my concerns are also with  nap times.  Maybe I'll post under there. I just don't know when to help her get to sleep, when to take her out of the crib, or when to leave her (even if it takes her an hour and a half to get to sleep).  And I've tried ++ playing around with her A time length.
shannon

[Elphyrafire]

Guys, same question with me! LAst night I left DS to chat and play and he did it for 2 1/2 hours (from 1 am to 3:30 am) before I went in and he didn't put himslef back to sleep either so it was a big waste of time! I don't think I'll do that again- he's losing too much sleep!

[BabyBsMommy]

We just got back from a trip with Brenden so his sleep is a little wacky still but we're going to try to leave him and see if he'll settle now that we're back.  I'll keep you posted on what happens.

Teezee, what do you mean by "bump?"

[Kimberly®]

 Elphyrafire; MY DD used to do that too, I went it after about 30 minutes to "resettle her" Unfortunitly if they aren't crying there isn't a lot you can do. Usually she's end up having a really early AM nap, but she wasn't upset day or night so for the most part I left her be. On the plus side its great that he can keep himself occupied that long.

BabyBsMommy; I hope things settle for you quickly. 'bump" is to move the post to the top of the list so that it isn't missed

[Elphyrafire]

Thanks Karita- never though of that before! Yes, DS can entertain himself for hours so I guess that IS a good thing in all of this.

Eventhough he's not crying I can put him back to sleep by swaddling him and putting his paci in and using white noise but I'm always confused when (if at all) to go in and do this. do you let it go on for hours or nip it at 30 mins? How long does it take to learn to settle oneself? I am going mental!

[Kimberly®]

Its a tough one, but I say start with 20 minutes, then after a week or so go to 30, then 40 then 60.. hopefully that way maybe he wont need you any longer.

[etmom]

Just a note on this:  My ds went through a long period (and is just transitioning out of it...another story!)  where he would play for one nap and sleep for the other.  I think this is a great thing!  And I never went in to interrupt either way.  My dh and I just talked about it and decided he should be in there at least an hour for each "nap".  So I would base it on that.  I would also think about if getting him up would get him to the next sleep time.  For example, if I put him down at 1:30PM and it was 2:30 and he was still playing, I'd see if he could make it until three and that would allow him to make it to bedtime.  I have found that he is just as rested whether he sleeps or not, and occasionally this would push the next sleep period just a little earlier.  And if I interrupted I think he'd expect me to get him up or something.  I think they're like we are:  Sometimes we don't necessarily need a nap, but just need a break from people, stimulation, whatever and then feel re-energized. 

In short---I think it was so nice to have a child that would play in there.  I wouldn't interrupt it, just decide how long you think the nap period should be.  I am thinking it will be helpful for my ds when he's no longer needing a daytime nap but he will still take some quiet time in his room each afternoon if he is already used to that.  Just thoughts, hope they're helpful.

[The Vern]

I wonder the same thing too! Last night, my 17 week old dd was awake talking to herself for almost 2 hours. I tried reswaddling a couple of times, but she'd break out before she was back in the crib, so I decided to leave her with her paci and her lovey to see if she couldn't settle herself. Well after listening to her for almost 2 hours, I decided if anyone is going to get any sleep, I wrapped her up really tight and she was out like a light. Like the prior poster I can't sleep if she's awake talking, while my husband doesn't seem to bat an eye! So I feel that time was a complete waste! But I'm split - on the one hand I want her to have the sleep she needs but on the other I'd like her learn self-soothing. I don't know, still undecided what I'll do tonight...

[BabyBsMommy]

The Vern, let me know what happens!
etmom, how old is your lo?
I think tonight, we'll wait for 20 min before going in to settle and see what happens!  I'll let you know how it goes!
I have a hard time sleeping through the chattering, too whereas, like yours, my DH saws logs right through it unitl I wake him up to go and settle Brenden.  We have a pretty good arrangement, though!  I go in for the feeds at night and he gets up for the resettlings!

[Elphyrafire]

The Vern- sounds familiar! Here's my post from a few days ago:
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=60070.msg434686#msg434686

This is getting crazy! None of the books talk about lo's chatting it up fro hours. It'd almost be better if he was crying (almost but not quite!)

[etmom]

My lo is almost 19 months.  He's transitioning to one nap (posted under 2 to 1 naps more about this).  Anyway, I also have a 2 month old so I wanted him to do two naps at least until the baby arrived---I was exhausted and needed rest myself.  I figured if he was playing he was happy and when I went in to get him he was rejuvinated.

I am just wondering why people think that it is a problem that babies do this?  (I mean that in a genuine way---sometimes hard to communicate sentences like that in writing
I would think crying would be a much harder thing to deal with because your child is upset.  Even if it's the middle of the night, at least it is happy sounds.  I love to have the monitor on when my lo is "talking" in his bed  (not that he does much real talking yet).  Actually, this is where he gets a lot of his practice.  It's like he's experimenting with sounds he can make and form.  Could it be that this is actually good for them?  Any thoughts on that?

[shannon S]

Just when I thought my lo could play for hours!  Now she is starting to fuss a little when I leave the room at bedtime.  But she rarely cries hard so instead of pick up/put down I call it....go in go out.  I've decided this is the time that I tidy the house (between going in and going out).  Actually, my lo went to sleep on her own the last two nights....it took 45 minutes. I guess that's not bad.
And thanks for the advise re: not worrying so  much. I've decided if she naps then good, but I'm not going to stress.  So she didn't have an afternoon nap today. but instead of getting frustrated, I got her out of the crib and went about the day.  The evening was no different than any other.

Anyway,This is what seems to be working (at least my fingers are crossed).  When I initally leave the room I wait until she cries a little (this always means she is stranded), I go in, lay her down, and keep my hand on her until she is somewhat still. Then I leave.  She stands up again right away but I wait a little, she cries a little, I go in, keep my hand on her for a little less time, leave but come back a little quicker.  I do it this way because I figure she is getting more tired as this continues.  So in the end I went in, put her down, she rolled over and faced the other way and I snuck out. In this case I left the door open. I think that she thought i was still in there.  Anyway, that was it!  Not the exact BW method but it may be working. 
Staying in the room just never works for us.

P.S. to the original question....my lo doesn't seem to be waking in the middle of the night to play anmore (knock on wood). She still wakes up but goes right back to sleep with the paci.  Maybe your lo will outgrow this.  But for your info, the only thing that I changed was the length of my lo's naps.  They are shorter now.  she was sleeping 4 hours in the day sometimes and I think maybe she was waking because she wasn't tired enough!   Crazy I know!  Thank goodness I'm not up for hours at a time very much in the night.

Hope everyone can sleep like their partners tonight!
shannon

oh, just got etmom's post.
Yes I agree with you! Why am I stressing??  I think it has more to do with OUR personality types. I know I'm kind of an anxious person and I'm always thinking about what is going to happen LATER if lo doesn't sleep right now....
But I'm going to stop worrying.!

[BabyBsMommy]

Thanks for all of the input and advice thus far.  This is turning into a really interesting thread!  I don't find playing in the crib in the middle of the night a problem.  My concern is that my lo is only 4 months old and, as with a few other posts, should I be concerned that he is missing too much night sleep if he is awake for a long stretches in the middle of the night at this age.  To clarify, he isn't cooing and having fun when he wakes up, he's grunting and fussing (but not crying).

[The Vern]

Well last night we tried a later bedtime, around 8 instead of 7. I know alot of you would think it too late, but I thought it can't hurt to try something different. She did wake up at 2, 4, and 6, but only for a brief moment and went right back to sleep with the paci. Then we were up for the day at 7:30. I feel better about this because at least she seems to be getting more sleep this way, so maybe we'll try it a few nights and see how it goes. I think what was happening was that she had a huge chunk of sleep the first part of the night and then just wasn't tired to continue sleeping, thus staying up for 2 hours and then going for a nap from 5 am to 7.  This way just seems like it's more of a thorough night sleep for her.

On another note - I'm trying to wean the swaddle, starting with her naps, so I left one hand out. I just checked on her and it looks like she fell asleep   She worked the other hand out too but seems to have been sucking on it after spitting out the paci. Could this be a first step towards ditching the swaddling? I sure hope so...

[Elphyrafire]

etmom-
Just to answer your question... the problems with chatting for hours for me is:
A) Is he missing too much sleep
B) Adults and kids don't do this (it's not "normal"): am I letting him create a problem that will get worse?
C) Is he slowly reveresing his nights and days?
D) It's loud and annoying to listen to- this is not normal talking- it's loud, on the verge of screeching- enough to send you over the edge

[BabyBsMommy]

Shannon, where in Manitoba are you?  We are in Winnipeg!
The Vern, let me know how unswaddling goes.  Brenden is still swaddled at 19 weeks.  About 4 weeks ago we tried for a week to stop but his sleep turned into a nightmare.  We're going to try again in a few weeks.
Last night we left him for 20 min at his first wake up, which began at 11:20pm.  When we went in he was out of his swaddle and wide awake.  He proceeded to fuss with gas for another 40 min until I finally fed him at about 12:40 and he was asleep again by 1. He woke up again shortly before 5 when I fed him and then and two more short wake ups between 6-7, waking for the day shortly after 7.
At our 4 month check up today the doctor said to start him on cereal.  We're beginning with rice cereal, once a day at about 5:30pm for the next 3 weeks before moving on to oats, barley and finally wheat.  No other solids until 6 months unless we find he really needs them a little sooner.  We'll see if this helps with night time wakes, too!

[shannon S]

BabyB's mommy,
Hey neighbor!  Yes we are in Winnipeg too! North Kildonan.  Small world.

I know it was right around the 20 week mark that my lo stopped needing to feed in the night. But it was also when she finally took a paci too and I switched to formula.  But there would be the occasional night even a couple weeks ago when my lo would not settle.  I realize now that it was a tummy ache and not hunger. She often has gas and can't settle.
Some advice that was given to me though was that perhaps lo wasn't hungry but actually had a belly ache and putting something in her belly  helped her to feel better, plus the bottle/breast would be soothing. Just something to think about.
They are so hard to settle when the have gas or tummy ache aren't they. We've been going through that a lot lately.
Do you give gripe water at bed or oval with meals?
Sometimes this helps to settle my lo.
shannon
The Vern, how did the later bed time work?

[etmom]

Elphyrafire:

Guess that makes sense!  I haven't had the trouble with the middle of the night.  Does your LO seem rested during the day? That seems like it would be the only way to judge if it's a problem.

Shannon S:

Glad you're deciding to worry less---easier said than done!  Especially with that first LO!  I always tend to think about the big picture, too and how every little decision I make will effect it.  We mothers probably exaggerate that---I know I do.

[BabyBsMommy]

  We sure are, Shannon!  We live in Charleswood!
I agree with your suggestion that with a tummy ache maybe a feed will help them feel better and relax.  I always find a lot of the gas comes out the bottom end when he's feeding!  I think I'm not going to worry about how long it's been since he's eaten if he wakes up with gas and just feed him since he's up an hour and a half and ends up needing to eat anyways!  I tried that once a few nights ago when we were away on our trip visiting family in Toronto and he went right back down at the 1am wake up but then was up at 4 for an hour before I finally fed him again.  Guess as long as it's at least 3 hours apart, I may as well feed him anyways!
We go through lots of gripe water.  I usually give it to him before each feed on days he is especially gassy or when it's been a few days since he's pooped.  I haven't given ovol for a while only because the gripe water seems to do the same thing for him anyways, so it's just better having it in the house since it serves so many purposes!  Apparently, babies have even more gas problems flying so I gave Brenden a shot of gripe water before the take off and landing feeds I gave him on the plane and he did great (could be coincidence but I would do it again and not chance it!)  The doctor suggested we could also put a warm wash cloth on his tummy when he is having gas problems because they get very tense and it helps them relax so they can work it out more easily.  My mom gave us something called a "bed bug" when we were home which is like one of those rice shoulder pain things that you heat in the microwave or cool in the freezer except it's a small, round, fleecy, cute little bug.  I may try that on his tummy tonight if he has pains again.  He was straining a lot when I put him down at bedtime so I rubbed his tummy gently for a few minutes and that also seemed to relax him because shortly after he settled down, got some more out and fell asleep.
We're hoping we get a few more hours out of him after he had cereal for the first time tonight.  He guzzled it down, it was so cute!  He giggled with the first few bites and then being the spirited baby that he is, got mad because he wanted to keep his hand on the spoon and help guide it to his mouth each time!  I was very surprised that he actually got more down than on him!  Less than an hour later he took a full feed before bed so his belly should be nice and full.  I wanted to try wake to sleep for his 11pm waking tonight (it worked for us before for a habitual waking when I was doing the dream feed) but my hubby thinks (and I agree) that we should wait it out tonight and see if he sleeps longer with the extra food.  If he doesn't, then I'll do wake to sleep tomorrow.

[The Vern]

The later bedtime sucked!!! We tried it two nights. The second night, she was up every hour on the hour pretty much and I ended up feeding her at 5:30. Worst night in the longest time. So last night I went back to our more normal 7ish. She was asleep by 7:10 and didn't make a peep until 3. She took her paci and went right back to sleep. Next time I heard from her at 4:50, after which she could only do 20 min at a time and no deep sleep. She started talking to herself at 5:50, at 6:15 I got her up and she ate at 6:30. All in all a pretty good night. Now we just have to play with the early morning 20-min stints. Not sure how - any ideas anyone?

I was at the dr this week and he told us to start solids too, even though most things I read now do say to wait closer to 6 months. I'm really curious how little BabyB makes out with the cereal and the sleeping. He's only a couple of weeks older than my little snort so I'd be really interested to hear how things go.

The swaddling continues at night. She didn't break out even once last night!    This am nap I tried her one arm out again and she fell asleep great, woke up briefly at the 45 min mark, but right back for another 45 with the paci. So far so good. Next week, I'll add the 2nd nap too.

[BabyBsMommy]

The Vern - keep me posted on your swaddle saga!  I wanted to leave his arm out yesterday but DH intervened and rightly so - we've just had good naps FINALLY for the past week and he thought we should wait it out a little longer before trying something new - I think so too!
We started cereal 3 days ago but it's really too soon to say if it's stopped some of the night feedings or not because although we started the cereal on Wednesday, he hasn't pooped since Sunday, which is very normal for him but by day 4 or so (yesterday) he starts to get quite uncomfortable and doesn't sleep well anyways.  I should mention that on the first night, although he still woke up at 11 (habitual) he wasn't hungry and went right back to sleep until 2.  Progress!  We were going to do wake to sleep last night but he was unsettled and not in a deep sleep until almost 11 so there was no point!  DH finally got him fully to sleep around 11 and he went until 1:15, ok, I guess.  I'll update a few days after the poop comes to let you know the true impact of the cereal!  He is absolutely LOVING it, though!