help, tired father facing divorce unless we get some sleep

[andibig]

johnc
lovely to see a dad on the boards have come to this post a bit late. we had problems with DD and the dummy (having to go back in and replug ). she still has a dummy now for sleep but is able to put it back in herself . i think because she went straight back to sleep after the dummy was back in i wasn't prepared to wean it off her.
we also had problems with DDs early wakings so i had to start limiting her naps.i think the long morning nap may be robbing him of some of his nighttime sleep (possibly)
HTH

[johnc]

hi all,

i hope everyone is well.

sorry for the absence but we have been without the internet for a while.

i would like to post an update on progress so far and if this link is still Read by people, again call on your much welcomed support and guidance.

Jack is now 18months old and now has a little brother, Louis aged 9weeks.

Louis sleeps like a dream, 7 till 7 in his own bed, no props needed, goes down awake (hindsight is a great thing eh), everything we did wrong with jack, we hopefully done right this time round.

anyway, jack is still a bad sleeper, hence my return to the boards.

he had started a spell of sleeping through on his own, but had some major surgery two months ago, which set us back along way, to the point of he was basically sleeping in our bed.

at first we couldn't see anyother way as he was in great discomfort and as his operation was down below, he needed a catheter(not sure of the spelling).

he is fine and well now, and back to his normall jubilant self, and as such, to rectify his sleep problems one week ago i started PU/PD.

that first night was horrible, i started at his first waking of 1am and he finally fell asleep at 6am.

i had resigned myself to giving up the following day if i would have to endure another night of that, fortunately we had a full week of him sleeping through without a sound.

job done i thought

but the last 3 nights have been worse that ever, he has been waking every hour, crying/screaming until i go in put my hand on his back and say "shh go to peeps" of which he does, or checks every couple of minutes I'm there, then falls asleep. until the next hour?

is this normal for PU/PD, or have i now created his sleep association with me saying go to sleep and touching his back??

please help

john

[Colin Macs Mom]

Hi John, nice to see you back again!!! And congratulations on little Louis the Champion Sleeper!!   

Jack is much too old for PU/PD now - are you familiar with walk in/walk out?
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=80750.0

That link should help you quite a bit. Sorry to hear that he needed surgery   That's one of those times where you need to do whatever it takes.

[mari]

Hello John

Congratulations on beoming a Dad for the second time.

It looks like Jack could be a little uneasy due to the fact that he has been through quite a lot lately, I'm so glad to hear that he has recovered from surgery.  Poor little thing. 

Anyway, I agree with Jess that I think WIWO could be the answer to your troubles.

Firstly though, could you post his daily routine and could you tell me, when he slept through the night recently, how did he fall asleep?  Did you have to rock him, shh him or anything.  And did he sleep all night in his own bed?

Mari

[Katet]

Have you had him medically checked out for an ear infection, I know with my ds#2 if he wakes frequently he has one, it is literally the only sign for him that when he lies down it seems to bother him... I was like that as a child too, hated bedtime as my ears hurt.

[johnc]

wow, thanks for the quick responses........it's nice to know your have a shoulder to lean on now and again.

his routine is:

wakes 6.30 - 7.30 (depending on how much sleep at night)

washed, teeth brushed dressed 7.30 - 8.00

breakfast 8.00 - 8.30.

(watches cbeebies whilst mum gets louis ready)

10 - 11 activity  (baby gym, reading griouop, music class) mum knows the schedule but it's one or the other each day.

11.00 possible sleep  - 40 mins, not same time every day, depends on which activity he has done.

12 - 12.30 - lunch.

(watches cbeebies whilst mum gets louis fed and ready)

1.00 possible sleep  - 40 mins, not same time every day, depends on which activity he has done.

3.00 - 4.00 - walk the dog, beach or field. (mum has a busy day, no wonder she falls asleep as soon as her head hits the pillow at night)

4.30 - 5.00 tea (dad gets in from work, and gives jack tea.)

5.00 - 6.00 dad time, generall toy fighting playing with cars, drawing pictures etc.

6.00 - 7.30 Bath time
       
      6.00 - 6.15 - wind down, close curtains, put night light on, sit on bean bag read story.
      6.15 - 6.30 - run baby bath for louis, run big bath for jack.
      6.30 - 7.00 - bath time with daddy. (During this spell mum baths baby, and starts breast feeding)
      7.00 - 7.10 - dried jim jams on. kisses good night for everyone.
      7.10 - 7.30 - lays in cot bed, dad helps him drink milk, he then falls asleep without any interaction
                        (i sit next to cot on chair)

last night slept through till 6.30.

sleep every night last week in his own bed, right through

then had three bad nights, but he still stayed in his own bed, but needed to know i was there.   

on a side note, how do you put pictures of the little one my page???

thanks yall

john 

[mari]

Firstly, for the pictures, you go to your profile and look and layout and click on adding your picture from there.  If you want a rolling avatar then you will have to talk nicely to a fellow BWer who is cleverer than me.  If you want one I will see if I can blag one for you! 

As for the sleeping, I think that he could do with a longer nap rather than cat naps. I would advise 12-12.30pm and try to stretch him for at least 2 hours.  Work on this as much as possible.

For sleep, you could try WIWO.  He wants you with him, so you need to teach him that you are there and you will come to him if he needs you but he musst sleep alone.
Does he have his milk in his cot?  If so, could you do it in another place so that he doesn't associate going to sleep with milk, yes it should help him settle, but not to help him sleep.
When he is ready, put him into bed and then leave, when he cries go in, lay him down if necessary, offer words of comfort if you feel he needs them, then leave again.  Do you think that you could do that?
If not, you could try GW, and as you are sitting next to him try moving a little further from the cot every night until you are ready to start WIWO.
If he wakes during the night, WIWO again until he falls asleep.

I hope that this helps, stick with it, something tells me that it won't be long before you get him sleeping every night.

[Katet]

I will second the need to try for one nap as if he is always having 2 short naps he isn't practicing the skill of moving to another sleep cycle, which could impact on his night sleep & potentially be why he wakes.

I'd also agree the bottle should be moved from the bedtime routine... I am of the school of thought that at 18mo the only reason you'd give a bottle at bedtime is habit &/or learned hunger
I'd actually swap the story & the bottle around, as using my 3.75yo as an example, he gets his stories before bed & then sits in his bed reading to himself until he is ready to fall asleep... he calls out to us & it can be from 5mins to 45mins that he reads for, but we know he has the "habit" that we hope will continue with him for many years of reading before turning the light out.

[johnc]

thanks again.

just to clarify, he doesn't have two sleeps i meant its one or the the other, before or after lunch.

also 45 Min's is the generally length of sleep, ,but this to varies from day to day, sometimes as much as two hours.

i tried to move away from the cot last night, only a couple of feet, and he got himself into a right state, in a short space of time?

is this normal, as i gave up and sat next to his cot to calm him, but he fell straight to sleep?

i need to find out if he came with an operational manual.......if only.......

[mari]

At 18 months you should try for a routine as follows:

Wake up 7am (hopefully)
Nap 12.00-2.30pm
bed 7pm sleep before 7.30pm.
Try to allow no more than 5.5-6 hours activity time between sleep-nap-sleep.

It does seem that he has developed a little seperation anxiety due to so much that has happened lately.


Take a look again at the link that also explains Gradual Withdrawal
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=80750.0

I think that it is the best way to go before starting WIWO.

Mari

[johnc]

thanks for the support folks.

sad to say things are the worst they have ever been and subsequently work/marriage life suffering severely.

jack is 21 months old, sleeping in his own big bed.
Louis is 6 months old sleeping in cot in same room.

Louis sleeps every night 7pm-7am apart form last couple of nights due to teething.

jack wakes every couple 0f hours crying screaming for mama/dad until we give in due work commitments and bring him into our bed and finally get some sleep.

decided today that this weekend we may need to attempt sleep training (CIO) or face losing my job due to unbelievable tiredness, loss of production and in some cases the ability to think on the spot.

i have tried PU/PD and WI/WO with neither making any difference.

please help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

john

[aisling]

Hi John,

Everyone will be great help on here (I'll try too) in helping you with the sleep training.  I do think, it would be better if you made a separate, new post on the Toddler Sleep Forum.  Maybe you could also include his daily routine and if he has any props, how he eats and any other necessary info that would help all.

HTH and hope you are OK,

Aisling x

[momofclaire]

John,
I am going to move this whole thread over to toddler sleep.  I hope that is ok with you.
In the mean time, can you tell me what his day looks like now?  Does he nap well?  How does he go down for naps and bedtime?  Is there any illness or separation anxiety going on? Can you describe how a typical night goes?

[johnc]

probo probs moving the thread, i would have tried but i don't have a clue!!

"can you tell me what his day looks like now?"

Wakes generally 7-7.30 am.

bum changed, hands and faced washed, teeth brushed. (mum bottle feeds Louis 6m whilst this going on)

8am - dad gets kisses and hugs if jack in good mode and off to work.
8-8.30am breakfast - very fussy eater and currently will only eat bread and butter sandwich with drink of water.

watches telly/plays with toys etc.

10am -  fruit puree whilst baby has bottle.

out and about walking/visiting relatives, will not nap now unless out in the car, otherwise up all day.

lunch 12-12.30 - if bread for breakfast, then something like lasagna, with yogurt for dessert

out and about walking/visiting relatives

2'ish -  snack chocolate or crisps

out and about walking/visiting relatives

5pm tea with mam and dad at table - whatever dad is having, pasta and sauce, pie etc (mum is vegetarian) with yoghurt's for dessert

5.30-6.30pm - dad play time, football, cars whatever he wants.

6.30pm up stairs - help put the bath on, get Jim jams out etc, close curtains.

7-7.30 - out of bath dressed, teddies chosen for bed, offer drink of milk from beaker (generally doesn't take it) kisses and bed.

note: if no nap during day (most days) asleep by 7.15pm - if napped fights to climb out of bed and play, put him back, climb out etc until 8.30ish until he gives in and goes to sleep.

regardless of nap or not he generally wakes at 2pm, then 3pm at which point he come sin with mum and dad so not to wake the baby crying.

side note, he recently had a Hypaspadius repair, which is a surgery to extend his urethra along his thingy.

he was in hospital for 3 days after the op and had a catheter for 3 weeks after. dunno if this would affect his sleeping, but he never slept prior to the op!!

please help

[Missy Lou]

wow john.  i'm so sorry to read your post.  what a long 21 months for you and wife and jack. 

i know that we've been at this a while but i have some questions.

i see jack is in a big boy bed.  how did that transition go?

has the sleeping gotten worse since operation?  how is he recovering?

do you know if jack is a spirited baby?  ie have you taken that temperment test tracy made?

jack sleeps well with you guys?  no more night wakings?

generally no naps?

no teeth at the moment?

it sounds like you guys do a lot during the day.  are his days usually spent out visiting and running errands?

don't give up!!! you and wife have done a fab job for the past 21 months.  jack sounds like he is a healthy little man and i know you are all exhausted but we'll figure something out.