help, tired father facing divorce unless we get some sleep

[Tamara]

{{HUGS}} to you and your wife John - so sorry to hear that you're still having problems.

Like PP said, if you could possibly post your routine with Jack, we may be able to offer some suggestions

Hang in there

[Ethans Mommy2]

Hi John!  I am so sorry to hear you are stilling have sleep troubles... I'm trying to get through all your post, but I wanted to send you a quick reply that it is perfectly ok to come here and 'moan' all day and night if you wish....  somethimes it seems like this is the only place you can do that since we are either in the same boat as you, been there, or are just now seeing results of hard work and determination!  I'll post more as soon as I get my 22 month old LO down for a nap... try to keep your chin up, trust me there is a solution out there, you just need to find the right one for you, your LO, and the rest of the Family!  

xoxox
-Lola

[maggieruth]

please moan, that's what we are here for! 
i am glad that you lucked out in the sleeping department and hit sleep jackpot with your second LO!  having a second just makes you realise that sometimes you can do everything right and some kids just are harder work, more easily thrown off kilter, harder to get back on the routine you want and they need.
i have been pretty lucky in the sleep department so haven't had to consider a lot of these issues too deeply except for every once in a while (still get teething/sickness/etc problems with sleep)
just wanted to tell you tho, i would NEVER claim this is because i am clever and attribute it ALL to the nature of my children.  (BTW have you looked at the way that the BW book classifies baby's and children's "types" i.e. angel, textbook, touchy etc)
i wish you the best of luck and just had to post and offer a hug to you and your wife x

[johnc]

WOW,

thanks for the support, sorry to appear so miserable, but the wife is working nights tonight, so it will be a long night.

here's the routine to the best of my knowledge - (I'll get deb to check it once she has recovered from nights and add anything needed)

Jack 26months old
Louis 10 months old

Wake:

Louis: 4-6am = bottle 5oz, bum cleaned. (sometimes will fall back to sleep)
Jack: 6.30-7.30am

Both: 7.30-8am = Washed, teeth brushed then Dressed in room and both down stairs

Eat:

Jack: 8-8.30am = very fussy first thing depends on mode but one of the following (porridge/fruit puree & yogurt/fruit)
Louis: 8-8.30am = porridge or fruit

Activity:

Jack: 8.30-9.30am = getting toys out, general play with toys and pottering around
Louis: 8.30-9.30am = following jack around

Sleep:

Louis: 9.30-11am

Eat:

Jack: 12-12.30pm = lunch, consisting of main (beans on toast, pasta and sauce, etc  and pudding (yogurt, chocolate mouse, trifle etc)
Louis: 12-12.30pm = lunch, consisting of main and pudding (now eating the same as jack give or take a few things

Activity:

Jack: 12.30-2pm = general play with toys and pottering around, allowed dvd favourite cartoon etc. or visiting friends family or baby/toddler gym.
Louis: 12.30-2pm = following jack around

Sleep:

Jack: 2-3pm (sometimes, but as a general rule he doesn’t nap)
Louis: 2-3pm

Eat:

Jack: 3pm = snack
Louis: 3pm = snack

Activity:

Jack: 3-4.30pm = general play with toys and pottering around
Louis: 3-4.30pm = following jack around

Eat:

Jack: 4.30-5pm = lunch, consisting of main (beans on toast, pasta and sauce, etc and pudding (yogurt, chocolate mouse, trifle etc)
Louis: 4.30-5pm = lunch, consisting of main and pudding (now eating the same as jack give or take a few things

Activity:

Jack: 5-6.30pm = general play with toys and being silly break dancing, being marching elephants, hide and seek, football, rugby (basically dad time)
Louis: 5-6.30pm = following jack around.

Bed routine:

(This is followed to the letter)

6.30-7.00pm = in bath and washed, splashing each other
7-7.30pm = dried dressed and toys away
7.30-8pm = lights out, milk in bed for jack, bottle for Louis sat on jacks bed.

Prior to the holiday, I we would lay them down then potter around doing odd jobs, sorting washing, tidying etc with only their night light on.

Normal Louis would fuss for about half an hour, having to occasionally lay him down and he would eventually go to sleep with us their or not.

Jack would sometimes fall asleep without fuss, or be demand we stay in the room.

PS the boys share a room due to only having a two bed roomed house.

Generally the fuss with jack starts about midnight and He will wake every couple of hours until we give into tiredness and bring him in our bed.

Start ground hog day again at 4-6’ish.

[tatya]

My husband and I have also had some difficulties since the birth of our non-sleeping son.  (Just to let you know that you're not alone.)  Before baby, we rarely argued about much and having a child really changed that.  We have actually gone in to counselling to help us get through the rough spots, having determined that we don't want to break up.  One of the things that became really apparent to us is that we were often trying to find someone to blame (usually the other person), which put us against each other rather than working together.  Now, we are trying to take a deep breath during frustrating moments and communicate with each other better.  I have found that since we worked together and agreed on a plan to help our guy sleep better, we are at odds with each other as much.
The dream feed sounds like a good idea, as it seems entirely possible that your LO is actually hungry in the night.  From the far too numerous books I have read, the definition of sleeping through the night at this age is actually only 5 hours.  So...from 7 until 2:00 a.m., he has gone 7 hours without a wake up.
Did he wake up the same amount when he was breastfeeding?  Was he fed at those times?
Hang in there.

[yaya]

massive hugs john

[Katet]

Hugs John

I'm looking at jack & 26mo & he doesn't nap most days yet goes from 6.30/7.30 until 8pm... my 31mo who does have a pretty good ability to stay awake isn't able to do that & not get overtired and when he gets overtired I get a nightly visit starting from about midnight.
So my first thought is if he isn't napping then he needs a bedtime 11.5-12hours after waking. BUT I do think he would probably nap if you offered it at 12.30... a pain when ds#2 doesn't nap that early I know, but you kind of have to find the balance of what is more important. I DO think at 26mo he needs that nap & he is pretty bad due to chronic overtiredness. Does he fall asleep in the car if you are out & about around 1pm?
So my thoughts are
working on 6.30am wake
nap 1pm (make Louis 1.15pm & shorten his am to 45mins to make him want an earlier one )
bed 7.30pm

Also there is a LONG time from a dinner at 4.30 to breakfast at 7.30, even with the milk at bedtime & part of my mind has to wonder if milk at bedtime might not contribute... I know that with my eldest if he had milk after 3pm he had night wakings. I think you should try cutting that out & offering him a more carb based snack (which is said to aid sleep... does for me) Or delay Dinner until 6pm & make that the last food for Jack

With the night wakings for Jack... Start telling him EXACTLY what will happen & sticking to it, it is amzazing how much they actually understand AND also what we "assume" they understand, but never take the time to tell. recently my 2.5yo was getting out of bed at bedtime & it kind of became a game... well when it dawned on me what was happening & spent all afternoon explaining & explaining about our "new" bedtime routine & hey presto it was almost perfect, he did get out to ask for a toilet trip, but that is to be expected as he is totally out of nappies (day & night).
I am no advocate of CIO but I do think sometimes you need to get them to work it out a bit... so could you say move Louis to your room for a few days & when he does wake up do a WI/WO but given his age/understanding go in say "I know you want X but remember we are doing this... I will come back & check, but you need to sleep in your own bed, goodnight" & by keep going back (on your timetable not his)

[RachelC]

{{{hugs}}}

We are still here and reading.  I agree with kate's advice above.  Hang in there.  CIO is not the route you want to take 

[aisling]

Great advice Kate. 

How are you John?

A x

[First Time Mom]

Not sure if any of this can help you or not but I figured I'd post anyways.

My dd was a great sleeper until 21 months when she started to freak out at bedtime. Prior to that, I'd put her down, turn out the light and shut the door and not hear a peep until morning. We had a rough few weeks where dh and I would take turns sleeping on the floor in her room and it would take her until 10pm to fall asleep, she would also have nws, crying. I finally started to put the full chandelier light on in her room and suddenly she didn't freak out as much, instead she would call out and we had to do "gradual removal", I'd sit on a chair near her door for her to see me. Did this for about a week. We always had a specific bed routine, toy clean up, bath, and 4 books. At the 3rd book I tell her "ok, last book, do you promise to go to bed afterwards?" and I'd wait for her "yes". I then let her pick one book to take to bed and sit her up on her pillow and tell her I will be in to tuck her in later. I leave full lights on and leave the door open. We now don't hear a peep from her. I go in later, move the book off her face, tuck her in and only slightly dim the lights, and shut the door. We have heard her on the monitor wake without crying as I think she flips the pages of her book and goes back down. For us, the book and lights on all night made the biggest difference, along with being very specific in saying "there's 4 books, mommy's now going to read the last one, etc.".

I think an earlier nap would help as well though I can't imagine how difficult that must be with 2 los. It's going to be hard to break the habit of sleeping with you guys, I had a friend that got into that with her ds at a young age and it was finally at age 3.5 that they dared to try to wean him from it, not an easy task but you can do it. I would try to talk to him lots in the day about sleeping in his "big boy bed" to "take care of his brother because his brother doesn't want to sleep alone" and do lots of walk in/walk out at night to comfort him when he wakes crying without actually picking him up unless he has a meltdown.

[mari]

Just my twopenneth.  Do you think that supper might help a little.  Obviously the nightwakings are probs a habit by now but as they have tea at 4.30ish maybe a little bedtime snack wouldn't go a miss. It made the world of difference to Nathan who also has tea around 4ish.

Alex was 18 months and I started WIWO.  I think that if that's what you have been doing then stick with it.  Try to resist temptation and don't take them into your bed.  Go in, say 'it's still night time 'and leave.  repeat it as often as you need to. The main thing is to let them know that you are there but teaching them that they have to go to sleep themselves.

Good luck.

Mari

[johnc]

thanks for the posts.

just a quick response too some of the posts;

1. Supper - we have tried giving him supper before bed, porridge or milk and something, but he will not eat a thing after 6 for some reason. so we don't force it.

2. Naps - we try and make him nap, but he will not do it, and no he doesn't fall asleep in the car.

but as for the weekend,

Friday night - Jack was up at 2,3,4 with Louis up at 5am.
Saturday night - both down at 7.30pm and Louis up at 8am with jack up at 8.30am
Sunday night - both down at 7.30pm with Lois up at 4am and jack 7.30am.

i cant work this sleep thing out at all!!!!!!

please keep offering this support, i will try and implement some things and get back to you all.

john

[Lissybits]

Hi John,
First of all BIG hugs to you and Debs - I know how you feel - we too have a 25 mo DS who has never been a good sleeper and now, after a month of colds and ear infections and an allergic reaction to something over Christmas, is being hoisted into our bed every night (getting earlier and earlier!) at some point during the night. I do always try to settle him in his own bed but tiredness always give in 

I decided enough is enough and last night I started with WIWO. I was up 4 times in the night - but it's got to get worse to get better right? I also find if I take him out for a run around in the afternoon he is always easier to settle at night.
Let us know how you're doing. And at times like this I just remind myself how lucky we are to a) have children b) that they are healthy - this really helps to put things into perspective

Lots of hugs,
Lis
xx

[johnc]

Lis,

well put;

"I just remind myself how lucky we are to a) have children b) that they are healthy"

i know we are blessed, but boy it can sometimes be hard.

just a note, both slept from 7.30pm last night till 8.17am (late for work, think i might need to buy an alarm clock if they continue sleeping).

thats 3 nights sleep, yippee.........

[Lissybits]

Wow! That's fab news!
Whatever you did the past few nights - keep doing it and share it with us!! And if it was just a fluke then now's the time to stop the 'bringing in your bed' FOREVER!!!! 
You know they can do it - you are more than half way there - which is more then can be said for me  - night no. 2 of WIWO 
Keep us posted!
Lis x