Author Topic: My LO's sleeping is so messed up!  (Read 3432 times)

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Offline IsaacsMomma

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My LO's sleeping is so messed up!
« on: May 23, 2006, 17:34:51 pm »
Hi all...this is my first post.  I have a question about my 8 week old.  I've read the BW, and I'm trying to incorporate most of the information, but my LO isn't cooperating.  He seems a bit touchy or spirited, although I feel like I'm still learning about him.  His schedule seems to be every 2 to 2&1/2 hours, and it seems like is revolves around his naps.  He usually will only nap for 1/2 hour to 45 minutes and he will want to eat (breastfeed) when he wakes up no matter how long he's napped for.  He also only sleeps for max 3 hours at night from about 10-1pm, but then it's up every 2 hours to feed.  As a new mom, I'm always second guessing what I'm doing. Help!
« Last Edit: May 23, 2006, 17:39:16 pm by IsaacsMomma »

Offline HeatherC

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Re: My LO's sleeping is so messed up!
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2006, 17:08:37 pm »
Hi, can you tell us some basic information about your day?  What time do you try to start your day?  What time do you put him down for his naps?  Do you have a winddown routine, and if so, what is it?  Do you swaddle?  What time do you put him down for the night?  Do you use the dreamfeed?
With that info we will try to offer suggestions.
Kelsey, Feb. 4, 2005
Landon, Jan. 2, 2007

Offline IsaacsMomma

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Re: My LO's sleeping is so messed up!
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2006, 18:49:56 pm »
Thanks for replying.  I think that it would be good to try to get him on a 3 hour schedule.  So does that mean that I should try holding him off from feeding for the full 3 hours, even if he cries?  Other info that I've left out....we do swaddle and he seems to like it.  It's part of our wind down routine.  I usually swaddle him, rock or cuddle him for a bit, put his paci in, and then set him down in the crib with some white noise or music.  He will often go to sleep on his own, but sometimes it takes a few times of picking him up and calming him down before he'll sleep for 45 minutes.  Our routine isn't very consistant, it's just basically on about 21/2 hours.  He wakes, I feed him, we play and interact for about 11/2 hours and then we get him down for a nap.  We don't have much of a different nighttime schedule, so I think I have to start that.  I also wonder if I'm making things worse, because if he wakes at night, I automatically feed without seeing if he'll go back to sleep first.  I'm also finding breastfeeding challenging because he's constantly fussing and crying during the feeds as if he wants more and I can't produce fast enough.  He'll stop fussing when I switch sides and let him have the milk that comes quicker, but he cries as soon as it gets harder to get.  I'm determined to stick to breastfeeding, but I'm very frustrated.

Offline HeatherC

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Re: My LO's sleeping is so messed up!
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2006, 02:16:28 am »
IsaacsMomma, I wanted to let you know that I see your post, but that I'm off to bed right now.  I will answer as soon as possible tomorrow unless someone gets to it before me.  You have a very fixable situation, so hang in there.  I didn't know what time zone you are in, so I didn't want you to feel abandoned.
Kelsey, Feb. 4, 2005
Landon, Jan. 2, 2007

Offline HeatherC

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Re: My LO's sleeping is so messed up!
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2006, 15:10:12 pm »
Okay, yes, as long as he is overall healthy and gaining weight and has no medical problems, then he should be feeding every 3 hrs.  You could use the paci to hold him off or some activity to distract him.  Once he falls into the 3 hr routine, he'll take fuller feeds and his body will adapt.  Then his naps should probably fall after about 1.25 hrs from each wake time.  You'll want to start your winddown routine hopefully before you see his sleepy cues, or right away when you do.  You're doing good to get him to sleep on his own.  You might try comforting him in his crib rather than picking him up, as sometimes that can be stimulating for his age.  However, if it works well for you, go with it.  Then, use the same technique to extend his nap when he wakes at the 45 min mark.  Actually, if he always wakes at that point, go to him at the 35-40 min mark and be prepared to lay a hand on him, shh him, pat, whatever works as he is coming out of the sleep cycle.  Hopefully, this will help him transition back to sleep.  Now, it may not work the first time, and it may take a week of doing it at every nap, but you will see results.  You should keep him in his sleep environment trying to return him to sleep until the next feed is due, or for 40 mins, which ever comes first.  If you have to get him up before the feed is due, keep the activity very low key and to a minimum, afterall, this should be his rest time.  If he only has a short nap, he will need his next nap sooner after his feed b/c he will have already had some A time (A time is the total of all awake time between naps, including feedings).  At his age, he will probably need to nap every 1.25-1.5 hrs, or sooner since he is probably in a cycle of overtiredness. 
As for nighttime, you will need to put him to bed 11-12 hrs from the morning wake up time.  Let him attempt to resettle in the night before you feed him.  He is at the age where he can go longer stretches without a feed, so see if he can do it on his own.  Of course, if he's crying, you should help him.  But if you can snuggle him, give him a paci, and pat him back to sleep, then he's not hungry.  If, however, he wakes again in an hour, for example, crying, then he's hungry.  If he is sleeping next to you, this can be hard b/c every noise probably wakes you.  Keep in mind, though, that babies are not quiet sleepers, and most of those noises are just normal baby noises.  He may even cry out in his sleep and not fully wake, or he may be gassy and grunt or groan, but he could still be asleep or fall back asleep on his own.
As for your breastfeeding concerns, I urge you to seek the advice of a lactation consultant, or use our Breastfeeding Forum for advice and/or support.  It is something you can continue to do, even if you feel there might be a flow problem.  There is help available to correct a suspected problem so that you don't have to discontinue the bfing.  Please don't hesitate to seek assistance with that.
Kelsey, Feb. 4, 2005
Landon, Jan. 2, 2007

Offline IsaacsMomma

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Re: My LO's sleeping is so messed up!
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2006, 16:54:21 pm »
Thank you so much for the advice...I will give it a try.  Last night I was successful in getting him back to sleep on his 4:30 waking because it had only been 2 hours since his last feed.  It took me 1/2 hour, but then he slept until after 6.  I think I just have to be more persistant with the routine.  I appreciate the help!

Offline HeatherC

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Re: My LO's sleeping is so messed up!
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2006, 20:11:20 pm »
That's wonderful!  Keep at it and you'll be so glad you did.  Please keep me updated.
Kelsey, Feb. 4, 2005
Landon, Jan. 2, 2007

Offline IsaacsMomma

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Re: My LO's sleeping is so messed up!
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2006, 02:26:19 am »
Just wanted to give you an update on our first day on a 3 hour EASY schedule.  It's gone quite well!  It helped that he had a really great night to start off. (Maybe because of his 2 month shots yesterday?)  He fed at 11:30, slept until 3:45am, fed and then slept until 6:45am!  So we started the 3 hour schedule, and he has seemed quite content all day, including when I'm feeding him.  I think that waiting 3 hours between feeds makes me fuller, and then he doesn't get as frustrated when he's eating.  The only cranky times have been when he wakes up from his nap after the first 45 minutes and we try to get him back to sleep.  We've been having resort to rocking him to sleep, but I figure once we get the 3 hour routine down, then we can work on getting him back to sleep without rocking.  We don't rock him to sleep otherwise, as long as we can get him to bed before he gets overtired.  It seems like the longest he will nap is 1.5 hours, but he also seems to need to go down for a nap about 1 hour after waking, so should I be holding him off for 1/2 hour after he wakes before I feed, or should I change to a 2.5 hour EASY?  I definitely feel good about getting him scheduled...it makes me feel more in control.  (Great for my type "A" personality!)

Offline HeatherC

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Re: My LO's sleeping is so messed up!
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2006, 17:51:24 pm »
I definitely feel good about getting him scheduled...it makes me feel more in control.  (Great for my type "A" personality!)
Hey, I hear you on that!  I'm the same way.
I'm so glad things are improving.  I would definitely stick with the 3 hr feeds, even if that means he has a little more A time before his next E.  That is normal and just fine.  Just keep in mind that he will need to nap again based on the time he last woke, not based on the time he feeds.  If he is ready for a nap an hour after waking, that is fine.  You might have an EASA(maybe another short S)E cycle, and that's fine.  The important thing is to watch his cues, and not try to do what is "supposed" to be done, b/c that hardly ever works. 
I don't have alot of advice on the bf, except to eat a balanced diet and drink lots of water.  If you think he may not tolerate something in your diet, cut out the major culprits-dairy, eggs, soy, wheat, nuts, fish.  Otherwise, he sounds like he's doing fine.  A paci can help hold him over until feed time.
As for rocking him back to sleep, I think it's okay for now.  Right now you want him to get caught up on his sleep and get out of the cycle of overtiredness.  Soon, though, you will need to attempt the shh/pat method that puts him in a little more control of falling asleep independently.  That method, or a variation of it, will better lead to him being able to transition on his own.   
Just remember to stick to your new plan.  He may backslide a day or two, even 2 weeks from now, but don't give up.  He will likely have a 3 mo growth spurt, so watch for that.
Kelsey, Feb. 4, 2005
Landon, Jan. 2, 2007

Offline IsaacsMomma

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Re: My LO's sleeping is so messed up!
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2006, 19:26:33 pm »
Another little update...we're persevering with the 3 hour EASY routine.  He again had a great night last night with only one feed at about 3:00!  He seems to be in better spirits as well...probably because he's more well rested.  The biggest challenge has been getting him back to sleep after his first 45min-1hour nap.  He has been going down well for the first part of the nap...either falling asleep on his own in the crib or a little shh & pat, but once he wakes up he's up.  We sometimes can get him back to sleep in our arms, but then we have to hold him until his feed time.  Or, he won't fall asleep at all and we have to do our best to tide him over until feed time.  He cries most of the time unless he's bounced up on our sholder for the whole 45min-1hour.  I'm hoping if we stick with it, it'll get better.  He won't take a paci during this time...he just gets mad if you give it to him because he knows it's not the boob.  And I feel silly asking because I have read the BW, but what does DD and DS stand for?

Offline LŠuren

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Re: My LO's sleeping is so messed up!
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2006, 19:46:19 pm »
sounds like youv'e made progress  ;)

DS - dear son
DD - dear daughter

Lauren x


Offline HeatherC

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Re: My LO's sleeping is so messed up!
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2006, 22:17:09 pm »
Sounds like the 3 hr routine is working for the most part.  Are there any naps that you are able to get him back to sleep after the 45 min transition stir?  Since you have the EASY routine in place and are doing extremely well with it, might I suggest you have a look through the NAPS boards for assistance with helping him transition during naps.  It is something that can be overcome with perseverance, so don't give up.  One thing I will suggest is to choose a method and stick with it for at least a week.  This means either shhing him in his crib for about 30 minutes to try and get him back to sleep, or you might end up holding him for his naps for a very long time b/c he'll come to expect him.  I know it's hard to tackle so many things at once, but I just wanted to point that out.  The NAPS mods will certainly be able to give you some great advice.

Oh, and here's a page that will help you with all the other abbreviations used on the site.  You shouldn't feel silly as they are not in the book, just internet lingo.  I've had to reference this page many times:
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=51772.0
Kelsey, Feb. 4, 2005
Landon, Jan. 2, 2007

Offline IsaacsMomma

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Re: My LO's sleeping is so messed up!
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2006, 03:43:54 am »
Thanks for that...I'll check out the nap section.  I've noticed that there is some info to read there on 45 minute nappers.  He has gone back to sleep I'd say 1/2 of the time and cried the other 1/2.  We usually only hold him until he's fast asleep again and then lay him down.  I've been trying to pat and shhh him, but he just cries and gets more and more upset.  I'll then pick him up to settle him and try to lay him back down and he gets upset again.  If he's not 100 % asleep, then he'll start to cry when you put him back down.  We'll keep trying.  Also, what is the normal schedule for his age in the everning?  I'm not sure if he's supposed to nap after his 6:00 feeding.  The last few nights, we've been unable to get him down for a nap, and so after 11/2 hours of trying, we'll bath him and then I'll feed him again at 8:00 and try to get him down.  I'm afraid that he's getting too tired, because it took us until 9:30 to get him to sleep. (that's 31/2 hours awake!)  I'll check out the napping section and the sample EASY routines for his age.

Offline LŠuren

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Re: My LO's sleeping is so messed up!
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2006, 05:38:14 am »
Thanks Heather
I couldn't find the link, it must have been moved  ::)
Lauren x


Offline HeatherC

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Re: My LO's sleeping is so messed up!
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2006, 17:28:47 pm »
I honestly cannot remember what lo's do at that age in the evenings.  Hopefully someone else can shed some light or you can gather some ideas from the sample schedules.  Let me know if you still need help with that and I'll find some help. 

Lauren, do you know?
Kelsey, Feb. 4, 2005
Landon, Jan. 2, 2007

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Re: My LO's sleeping is so messed up!
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2006, 18:51:25 pm »
Here was my routine at 8weeks; (based on one day)

W 0730
E 0800
A 00830
S 0900 - 1.5hr
A 1030
E 1100
A 1130
S 1200 - 2hr
E 1400
A 1430
S 1530 - 1.5hr
A 1700
E 1800
A 1815
S 1915 - 30min
E 1945
A 2000 - bath
E 2015
S 2100
E 0345
As we went on and got more in control the bedtime got closer to 8pm. Ideally though, the S at 1915 SHOULD have been his bedtime and he was going to bed to late.  I remember dreading the time times, because we were constantly doing something for Calum, i.e. feeding, bathing and we never had a night to ourselves - I hadn't found the site at that time, just read the 2 books.    It also looks like he could stay awake 90min between naps.  :-\

This is the example routine in the book;
    E 7am
     A 7.30am (inc. a 10 - 15min at the end of this 'A' time for wind down for nap)*
     S 8.30 - 1.5hr  shorter and you haven't been able to extend then you would do EASA

    E 10am
     A 10.30am (inc. a 10 - 10min at the end of this 'A' time for wind down for nap)*
     S 11.30 - 1.5hr   shorter and you haven't been able to extend then you would do EASA

    E 1300
     A 1330 (inc. a 10 - 10min at the end of this 'A' time for wind down for nap)*
     S 1430 - 1.5hr   shorter and you haven't been able to extend then you would do EASA

    E 1600
     A 1630
     S 1730 - catnap only  30 - 45mins

    E 1900 & bath or vice versa    or    E 1800   &    2000  with bath in the middle (clusterfeeding)
     S 1930                                               S 2030

    DF between 10 -11 https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=54662.0

More EASY info here, although it really just goes over what Heather, Stacy and I have said: https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=62100.0

The 'A' times in the 2nd example routine are not for any set age and are just an indication of what the routine could look like. For example, If your LO can only stay awake 1hr (inc feed) then you would need to bring forward the 'S' time and have a shorter 'A' time - your wind down should take place at the later end of your 'A' time (hope I am not making this confusing). If you LO can stay awake longer than one hour you use the 'A' time that is given as an example above as a guide.

You may find that your 1st 45min nap is because your Lo is either overtired or NOT tired enough and you have clock-watched instead of following his cues (we are all guilty of this   ;))




How long can your LO usually stay awake for between naps before showing signs of tiredness? I agree that picking your Lo up is overstimulating at this age, epecially if you have a spirited ot touchy LO, also if he is arching his back when you pick him up - you should put him down becasue he is trying to settle himself to sleep.


Lauren :D
Lauren x


Offline IsaacsMomma

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Re: My LO's sleeping is so messed up!
« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2006, 05:26:01 am »
My LO seems to only be able to stay awake for about 1 hour-1 hour& 15 minutes.  I try to watch for when he starts to yawn.  It seems like if I miss his cues and he gets overtired, he starts to cry pretty hard and needs lots of help settling.  If I get him down earlier, he'll often just lie in his crib quietly and eventually fall asleep on his own in about 15min-1/2 hour.  Sometimes he'll start to cry though, or he'll wake up and start to cry, and it seems impossible to calm him down by patting/shhing him in the crib and his cries escalate.  Am I not being patient enough, and picking him up too soon?

Offline LŠuren

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Re: My LO's sleeping is so messed up!
« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2006, 17:09:54 pm »
IsaacsMomma

If I get him down earlier, he'll often just lie in his crib quietly and eventually fall asleep on his own in about 15min-1/2 hour.  Sometimes he'll start to cry though, or he'll wake up and start to cry, and it seems impossible to calm him down by patting/shhing him in the crib and his cries escalate.  Am I not being patient enough, and picking him up too soon?

I would leave him in the cot and do shushpat, whe he starts to cry it may only be an MANTRA cry and he is trying to settle himself to sleep.
Lauren x