why are the sleeping issues getting more complex?

[Gigismom]

grrr.  dd was such a good sleeper til about 3 months ago.  now every time we put her down, it is anyone's guess if she will stay down!

our latest problem is that i cannot put her down without her freaking out.  if dh puts her to bed, she is fine.  thank god he is home almost every day when it is naptime and every night at bedtime.  but tonite he is gone, so i put her down.  and of course she freaked out.  i had to lay on her bedroom floor while she fell asleep.

does anyone else's lo prefer a certain person putting them down to sleep?  what do you do when that person can't be there? 

[Nikki~Nathanamp;Danielle]

It'll be a passing phase. I've found toddler sleep a totally different kettle of fish to baby sleep issues - a lot of it I think is their growing awareness, object permanence and independence starting to develop.

I think it's best to just ride it out rather than try anything drastic. I know her routine involves dh (we're the same only it's me that's required for dd, with ds he only wanted dada), but you just need to make do on the times when he's not there and it will pass at some stage. Maybe on the nights even when DH is home to start taking turns or at least involving yourself during those times so it becomes a bit more of the norm to her.

HTH

[Florencia]

Totally hear you! ds is fast asleep for naps when nanny puts him down... with me is the peekaboo nightmare that leads us to wi/wo sessions sometimes. At bedtime, when he's put on bed by my mom or MIL he's out (according to them) in 5 mins while with us... is 20 mins of chattering away.

Totally agree with Nikki's advice. Just keep your cool while this phase sorts itself out. i have found that the more annoyed i am, the more he "plays" with it...

HUGS!!!!!!

[alyssa1]

I have found the same - my son will go down very easy for my husband and actually nap longer for him than me.  At night, we alernate everynight unless one of us is tired.  We don't give him the choice, we just pick him up and say night/night to the other one then up we go.  If your husband is doing it more often then he is getting used to him.  I would say just alternate and keep consistent with what you both do.  I think also becasue I work more, my husband puts him down more for naps so he gets used to the way dada does it.

[Gigismom]

so do i just keep lying on her floor til she falls asleep?  the walk in walk out is a nightmare with lots of crying.  i prefer to just lay on the floor for 5-10 mins while she goes to sleep without crying, but i don't want to create this new habit.   

[Nikki~Nathanamp;Danielle]

I think you can approach it several ways. We used to do the walk in and walk out method over and over. It was effective, but could take up to 45mins on some nights, but the phase would pass in about a week or two until the next time. So it worked and it didn't create any other 'habits'. The other approach is to lie down next to her until asleep - this approach, I'd treat it like your normal/old routine of putting into bed, saying goodnight and leaving and if she protests then lie down. You may find one night that she doesn't protest and you'll realise that the phase has passed. What we do now with ds who is 3 is the latter approach, treat it as if we're not going to stay, but if he asks we do. I'm personally not bothered by this because he's usually asleep within 5mins that way and really what's the worst that's going to happen by doing this? Sure maybe it doesn't leave us free to not be there at bedtime, but the other method doesn't guarantee that someone else is going to be able to do it anyway kwim?

Over to you anyway, either way works in my experience and neither have bad consequences, only one way is less stressful for the child and 'quicker'.

[lilmonkey]

Hi Lindsey,

I'm going through the same thing right now and I agree with Nikki.  Just pick whichever method is most effective (and with less tears) in getting your lo to sleep.  Keep telling yourself that this phase with pass.     Right now, I just lie down at the foot of dd's crib until she basically stop chatting/playing and in that 7-mile stare, then I can leave.  She doesn't see me on the floor but if she sees me leave the room right after I put her in the crib, then she would protest.  I just use the 5-10 min to do some meditation or if I'm feeling guilty about that extra piece of dessert, then some leg lifts  .

[jolenelim]

I don't know if this will help, but what we did with our DS was to give him absolute one-on-one attention during the bedtime routine. We also cuddled and hugged him until he was totally running away from us and wanted to get into his crib. 

And I hung his old baby rattles/teethers all around this crib.  So what he has been doing lately is that he would just stand in his crib playing with the toys and drift of to sleep on his own. But at least we don't have to be in the room with him. And he is happy! 

HTH!

[Sylvia.]

so sorry, i cannot comment as i am having sleep problems as well

[Harrisonsmummy]

I also stay sometimes and not others. It's a bit like gradual withdrawal, I sit on the floor at the end of the cot and read a book. If he jumps up, I lay him down etc. After a few days I move just outside the door, eventually he stops jumping up and down. He knows someone is around. Then I sit in my room and read until I know he is asleep, so that I can hear quickly if he does jump up. There is no crying involved and he is normally asleep in 20 minutes. It just takes a little longer to show that you will be there for them.

Whenever there is disruption or he is overtired, I may have to go back to being "visible" while he drifts off - but as Harrison is a "minimal" sleeper ie 10.5hours straight through on an average night - I can't afford him to lose too much sleep, as we quickly revert to night wakings through overtiredness.

Sometimes they just want a bit more reassurance, and for a small portion of their lives if it is possible ( and not too onerous ie 2 hours) then why not! I haven't found many consequences as a result - I suppose only if he does wake at night he wants someone there...but who doesn't?

[Colesmom]

gosh-this sounds so much like what I'm going through.

i had my lo going through the night for three weeks prior to returning to work.  Then I think a little SA and a lingering cold have created issues.  I have to admit to APing, feeling guilty for not being there and generally just not being firm.

Cole cries before every sleep period.  He has NEVER gone down in his crib without crying.  I am beginning to find it exhausting...I am constantly stressed about his sleep.  He seems not to need much sleep at all.  Last night he wouldn't go down until 8pm (after being up from nap at 1:30) and woke nearly every hour and was up by 6:20...only because i had to cave and take him to the couch. (and he's happy on this much sleep)

I tried starting wi/wo twice in the last couple of weeks only to give up because he just can't kick this cold of his.  I think this might have a lot to do with it.  I'm there when he goes to sleep (often holding his hand or touching his back) so he can't settle himself when he wakes in the night.  I would consider it a HUGE improvement if I could just be in the room and not touching him

It is making me resentful of him.  That makes me sad.  I only want what's best for him.  I've worked on his sleep every day and every night since he was 5 months old.  Should I just relax?

My daycare provider actually suggested trying to let him go down later, say 9pm.  I know it goes against every BW bone in my body...but maybe right now he just needs that time with me. 

*sigh*  I'm sorry to ramble...needed to get that off my chest.

[Gigismom]

traci-hugs i am sorry that you are feeling so stressed about this.

if it were me, i would follow your daycare provider's advice.  it sounds as if maybe your lo really doesn't need that much sleep.  is he happy on the amount of sleep he is getting now?  if he is usually happy, i'd go ahead and try to give him less sleep and see how he does on that.  yes, it is not 'by the book' in terms of the time frames tracy lays out, but if it is what your lo needs, then it is technically 'by the book' because tracy's books are all about listening to and following your lo's cues and needs.  and putting him down a bit later might be worth it if your struggles with sleep could end or at least lessen.  i would try it at least and see what happens.

[Nikki~Nathanamp;Danielle]

Traci, if you want an honest answer?  I do think you need to relax about it and go with what you think Cole needs, not only what a book is saying (I am a fan  , but it's just a *guideline*). Yes, keep your routine - but that's not the same as a scheduled routine, which doesn't seem to be working for Cole. My kids have never fitted into the typical timed EASY and each has their own rhythm that goes with it. If Cole wants to go down later then do that. There is nothing wrong with it. It's all about how you perceive it. It's been almost a year since his sleep went haywire and something's not working for him. I personally don't like the term Accidental Parenting, because to me that is saying that you are doing something wrong if you follow your instincts which it seems to me you *want* to be doing something different, but you're battling yourself because *the book* says otherwise. Please don't think it's caving by taking him onto the couch with you - you're looking after both your needs, what's wrong with that? Danielle comes into our bed when she wakes anytime from 5am. Some days she sleeps right through till her usual wake up of 6.30am and others she doesn't. None of these *wrong* things are going to last forever. {{Hugs}}

[Judy]

Oh Traci - HUGS!!  ITA with Nikki.  Gosh girl if anything you are trying/he's doing is making you feel resentful then it's time to forget what a book or anyone else says and do what feels right.  I think Tracy would support that if that helps to know.  More important than anything is the relationship between you and Cole.

For what it's worth - my little one's go down somewhere between 8 and 8.30pm generally and they have only one nap a day around 12 or 1pm and sleep usually two hours but maybe only one hour.  We just go with the flow.  Some nights H needs her back rubbed, others nothing at all, some nights she wants her dad in the room, some nights not.  I don't consider anything "Accidental" parenting - I think it's a poor phrase.  Doing what your child needs cannot be accidental.  IMO

Oops - someone up crying 20min after going to bed - I shall run and see what she needs.

[Colesmom]

gigismom, nikki, judy-thanks so much for keeping me sane.  i am feeling better today. cole went down at 8:45 last night (after 30 min of wi/wo) and slept until 6:15 with only two brief wakeups.  woke at 2am and 4am but went right back to sleep when i layed him down.  Last night I relaxed during dinner time and bath etc and didn't rush us.  He isn't giving me sleep cues at night which is confusing because I always felt that he had gotten into overtired mode...you know how some kids get...just seem happy as can be? But maybe he just isn't tired.  I'm going to try an 8:30 bedtime for a week and see how that goes. 

On another positive note, I got my first smile and wave as I left him at daycare today

[Gigismom]

traci-glad you are feeling better.  i'm glad he did well last night.  hopefully going to bed a bit later is all he needs.  i am having trouble reading gianna's cues as well.  it's like i know she is tired but she just seems to get happier and more playful as the night goes on. so i thought i was putting her to bed too early.  then i read in a parenting magazine the other day that as babies age their tired cues change.  they don't do much yawning and eye rubbing anymore.  it said if you want to see a tired toddler, look at the one who is running around the room laughing hysterically.

so i was glad it's not just me who can't read her anymore.  we are keeping her up til 8 or 8:30 because she seems to do best on that.  i think it is harder in summer time to get them down early because it stays light so long outside.  at least i know that is part of the deal with us.  i don't mind her staying up later though because it gives us more flexibility to go out and gives her more time with daddy. 

anyway, i know it is frustrating when they suddenly start acting different and you don't know what is going on or if you are doing something wrong.  but ITA with nikki and judy that if the bw methods or time frames are stressing you that badly, then maybe it's time to just step back and reevaluate the situation and see if you can approach it differently.  i know that i personally spent way too much time in my dd's early months stressing over her not sleeping properly.  sadly it's not time i can take back.   

[Sylvia.]

dd also seems to have so much energy when it is nap and bed time, running around, dancing, clapping .... laughing hysterically, i love it, when ever we have sleep issue it is alway because i am putting her down for a nap to late, just these last few days i have put dd down for her nap earlier and she went straight to sleep, we had a few days earlier in the week when it took her well over an hour closer to an hour and a half to settle to sleep, gee did i think i had problems, so i agree that as babies age their tired cues change

[Sylvia.]

well i posted one day to early the last two days dd has not had a nap at all 

[Gigismom]

man, what is going on?  gianna is barely napping either...and now she is waking at 5 am.  dh or i have to go lay on her floor in her room to get her to go back to sleep for an hour.   

[Sylvia.]

seems lindsey we are having the same problems only thing is we are not having the early wake ups, not that we haven't had them in the past, if you lay on the floor does she go back to sleep, i put dd down today at 1pm, it is 20 past at this time and she is happily singing and talking, yesterday i went in after nearly 90 minutes and did shh pat and it only took 5ish minutes, oh not before she had stripped herself and pee-ed the cot, i had to change everything, nappy clothing, sleeping bag sheets, i am going to shh pat today after 30 minutes and not leave until she is asleep,

[Sylvia.]

well at 26 minutes i heard nothing, held back to look, really wanted to look, finally i looked and guess what sleeping, out of the sleeping bag but sleeping, lindsey with your early morning wakeup have you change the nap time? when did dd used to wake up before early morning wake ups?

[Gigismom]

well when we first switched to one nap the schudule looked like this:

7:30 wake
12:30-2 or 2:30 nap
8:00 bed

that seemed to work really well for her once she settled into it.  things are spiraling out of control...started with night waking, now it is early wakings at 5 am.  when she wakes at 5 am, we do not get her up.  sorry, but that is waaaaay too early and not enough sleep for her.  so dh or i lay on her floor and tell her go to sleep.  she almost always goes back to sleep.  sometimes she goes back to sleep right away.  sometimes she plays for an hour then goes back to sleep.  she doesn't cry as long as we are in the room.  we've had a couple days this last week where she wouldn't take her nap unless i laid on the floor by her crib. 

becasue she goes back to sleep usually in the morning, i haven't changed her naptime.  i still put her down at 12:30.  but on the days she doesn't go back to sleep, she is only up til about 12 before she starts falling asleep while playing or eating.  also we have given her 2 naps on a couple of the days she woke really early.

russyl maybe is your dd ready for a later naptime?  have you already tried that?

[Sylvia.]

night wakings, gee that is tough, we have never really had these, does she cry out for you? we did have a few early evening wakings about 2ish hours after she went down for the night, she cried and cried, the first few times i went in pick her up and held her for a bit to settle her down (gee i love holding her), then i put her down patted her for a bit and then left, did walk in walk out, but then i decided after a few time (not nights in a row just over about a week), that i really needed to resist walking in, and that seemed to work for us, every now and then she will cry out at about 10.30ish and i find if i hold back she settles down after about 10ish minutes, are your wakings as early as this? have you tried to resist going in? now that our dds are older there cries do sound worse, dd can get me running, of course something could also be going on so we have to be careful, how long has gianna been on one sleep again? dd had early morning waking for some time after she went from 2 to 1 nap

[Harrisonsmummy]

How long are the night wakings? If they are longish, then you may have a chronic sleep deprivation! (That's lo - for you it goes without saying!) Harrison always wakes when he is overtired - but it may take a couple of days for it to get to that point. He may start waking at night after a cold has finished, and once we have a night or two it becomes self-perpetuating. Then we get early early mornings - 4.00am - 4.30am, then 5am ( which he won't go back to sleep from).

I try and get a couple of very early nights in for him and that often sorts it out, then push bedtime back to normal over a couple of days. Then early wake-ups gradually stop, although they do lag behind everything else slightly! Like you I draw the line at 5am - used to stay in his room, now I give him water and leave him for another half hour or so.

Justine

 

[Colesmom]

HUGS to everyone going through this craziness!

ladies-do your los LOOK tired when they are waking early and up in the night?  Cole will look a bit tired, but is generally as happy as a clam.  I am trying to be consistent...and was trying a later bedtime...but he is regularly waking before 5:30 am now so if he's not going down until 8:00 or 8:30 he's only getting 9 hours of night sleep and MAYBE 1.5 hours during the day.

I have to ask, are everyone's los getting the 13-13.5 or so hours total expected for this age?  I mean, if that's the AVERAGE...then some of us poor folks have to be experiencing something on the shorter end of the spectrum don't you think?

I am trying to RELAX about Cole's sleep...but finding it very hard.  I want what is best for my little man.

Also-are any of you ladies working?  I am finding it very hard to get Cole down early.  Believe me, I put sleep ahead of spending time with him any day...but he just doesn't want to go down.  I STILL haven't been able to commit to a solid chunck of time for wi/wo...he still has a darn cough.  And now it's crazy hot here and I just bought a fan last night for his room (A/C doesn't reach his room very well), so i didn't think it fair to let him cry and get all hot!

okay, guess that's all for now!  Hang in there girls!

[Gigismom]

traci yes gianna looks tired when she is waking in the night and early in the am.  we actually haven't had any bad night wakings for a few days now (although that is all about to change as we are going to san francisco for the weekend).  so far, what has been working like a charm since we tried it is just lying on the floor in her room next to her crib.  she always quiets down.  soemtimes she goes right back to sleep, other times she is awake for a while.  usually we can get her to go back to sleep in the early mornings too.

she is getting about 10-11 hours at night and 1.5 during the day for a total of 11.5-12.5.  she is definitely always tired, but i don't know how to fix that.  like if i take her anywhere in the car, she is trying to pass out in the car seat.  but if i try to give her 2 naps, then she is waking even more at night.  so we are just in a really crappy transition phase i guess where 2 naps is too much and 1 nap is not enough.

no i don't work, so i have NO problem putting her to bed at night!! 

[Harrisonsmummy]

Traci, yes harrison is tired when he isn't getting as much sleep as he needs. When we are ina good phase he gets 12hrs in 24 - broken into 10.25 at night and 1.75 in the day.

I found to setle him at night I would sit in his room and gradually work my way out over a period of time He bobs up and down, but generally takes 20 minutes to settle, unless he is overtired when he can take 40 minutes! Then I know we have pushed him too far and are in for a troublesome night.

The earlier nights do seem to help, so keep trying. Although I don't work DH does the bedtime routine and he groans when I tell him we are on for an "early". However even 20 minutes can make all the difference!

[imsmum]

Hi Traci--I'm also from TO. 

Margot has always gotten less sleep than "average"--she's spirited and I think that comes with the territory.  She used to be getting 10 hours at night plus a 2 hour nap but lately the nap has been getting shorter and shorter so that it's only about 1.25 hours. Her night sleep had also gone wonky with several nights of 9.5 hours and a few of 11ish--as you said, this heat hasn't helped. 

Margot will NOT typically look tired when she wakes early but may be cranky at first, will play happily but becomes easily wired and then will get that crashed out exhausted look later on. So just because Cole wakes happy that may be more of a temperment thing than a measure of  whether he's getting anough sleep.  I think you have to look at has behviour the rest of the day, b/c they can show they're tiredness at different times in different ways. 

Having said that I have long resigned myself to the fact that Margot's average sleep is 1 to 1.5 hours less than other children her age.  I know if she's not getting enough if she starts waking at night or if she is particularly wired at sleeptimes--ie. not just her usual chattering but yelling, jerky movements etc.  So I think you have to go with what you know of your child, keeping in mind the average sleep requirements, to determine if he's getting enough sleep.

Know the challenge of trying to do an early sleep time.  Margot absolutely REFUSES to go up to her room until her older sister leaves for school at 12:45   even if she's only slept 9.5 hours at night and was up at 5:45!  Night isn't so bad because we've gotten into a routine of going upstairs and brushing teeth right after dinner.  We do jammies but then she wants to rock her babies in her room for quite a while so our windown routine at night can be very lengthy!  I usually don't have a problem getting her into her crib by 7:30, sometimes earlier--in fact, she will cut short a story and lie in my arms in the rocking chair when she wants the lights out!   Work certainly does throw a wrench into things--I'm constantly ducking out early in order that we can do dinner and the bedtime routine at an early hour.  Thank goodness for an understanding boss! Again I think it is a temperment thing, spirited types have a harder time transitioning, so Margot does better with a longer wind down period at night but surprisingly will not go upstairs for her nap until she is ready to drop!  Again go with what works best for Cole.  As a mother of a 5 year old I found you have to be more and more creative and can rely less on books for advice because personality starts coming more and more into play.  That's why this site is fantastic--so many creative parents helping us to troubleshoot our problems!!

[Jess-J&E]

Hi ladies,
  I just wanted to jump in here and share hugs with you all, waking at 5:30 and having short naps is no fun at all.  We have been getting up before 6am for about a year and a half.  No matter what I do I can't change it so I think I just have an early bird on my hands too.  It seems that it is ME who is unhappy with it not Ethan
 
I have been so obsessed with this 13 hour a day thing for so long and have just decided to let it go.  I went to the library yesterday and from what I read in about 10 different books.....the grand conclusion is....is depends on your child.  The average in the books ranged from 10-14hrs of sleep in a 24 hour period.  That is a huge range so I suppose this magical number is a guess anyway.  Basically they all said it depends on how your lo acts with the amount of sleep they are getting (even the ones who focused on 12 hours at night and a 2 hour nap said that some need more some need less)

 Not much help but it actually has (FINALLY) helped me relax a bit about Ethan's sleep.  He just doesn't need as much sleep as many other kids I guess.  Even with 11.5-12 hours a day we are still right within the average!   I suppose if you think about adults the ideal 8 hours is too much for some and too little for others.  Kids are the same I guess.  Ethan doesn't ever look tired either, unless of course he is ill or is getting over and illness then the amount of sleep is definitely not enough for him. It is certainly a delicate balance for kids with lower sleep requirements.

We had a 6:45 bedtime for about a year and then a 1.5-2 hour nap during the day.  The early bedtime never led to later wake-ups for us but it did get him more night time sleep.  Now that we are approaching 2 he is really hard to settle before 7:30 and is still as reliable as a rooster at 5:30 or so.   Naps are anyone's guess but are from 1hr---2.5 hours, I just never know.  Then there are the surprise no nap days. 

My theory about difficulty settling is that they are just too busy and too aware of what is going on to want to sleep right now, especially now that it is light at 7:30pm.    Just as some others said the spirited ones have a hard time with transitions and settling down, they are always ready to go go go!   Fun and a complete joy all day but sleep times are tough.

Well I think I am just babbling but wanted to share support.

Jess

[Colesmom]

thank you all so much ladies.  it is so helpful to hear what others are going through.  And Jess, you are soooo right.  Cole is such a happy little guy even if he only gets 45 min. in the day and 9 or 10 at night.  Not that I'll use that as an excuse not to try my best to give him more than that...but I really do need to stop worrying and start enjoying my little guy.   by the way, Cole also is an early riser.  I wouldn't mind so much if he slept right through from 8-5:30 or whatever but we have the night wakings also.  I've started taking him on the couch with me if he needs it and I'm not going to worry about it.  Afterall, I need my sleep and my sanity too!  He's been sick over a month now since starting daycare and now a horrible bum rash (broken skin).  I just can't seem to get him healthy enough to hope he can sleep through!

He is generally textbook for sleep he certainly is touchy/spirited!

[Jess-J&E]

Gosh Traci you have all three!  Night wakings, early wakings and a short nap- wow!    We have had our share of night wakings over the last two years so I am right there with you....and if taking him on the couch helps then I see nothing wrong with it.  In my humble opinion you have to do what works for you and if it isn't by the book and you aren't harming your LO then go with it.  Your rest  (and his!) is what is important right now, when you get him all better then you can worry about the other stuff.

Just a few things I wanted to say too......does he have all of his teeth yet?  This is prime time for eye teeth and molars so that could be causing the wakings if he is hurting.  Ethan always had a rough time with his teeth and those seemed to be the worst for waking at night, most nights he wanted to cuddle for a bit and then he was fine but it must have really bothered him. It went on for a good month or more.  Not until they were all in did things really settle down.  Also about the diaper rash, has he had diahrea at all with being sick?  When Ethan was sick and was pooping more than usual he got a nasty diaper rash that I could not get to go away.  I eventually called the doctor and one time it ended out being a yeast infection!! I didn't even know that boys or little kids could get them.  It looked extremely painful and red with little bumps everywhere, it might be worth checking out.  Traditional diaper ointment won't help you.  The second time I forget what it was but it was caused by the diahrea virus and they told me to get Lotramin (I am not sure what you have in Canada but it is the same stuff used for jock itch and I think even athletes foot!  yuck I know...but it helps with fungal infections).  Check with your doctor but a diaper rash that keeps getting worse and more inflamed might be more that the "traditional" rash.  I don't know, just trying to help....

Have a happy early morning tomorrow
Jess

[Colesmom]

hey Jess-thanks for the tip. went to the walk in clinic Friday and my little man has ear infections in BOTH ears.  got prescription cream for his bum and antibiotics.  i was a little rushed there so i'm taking him to his regular ped this afternoon.  and yes, we've had diarrhea since last wednesday.  first semi-solid poop this morning so i'm keeping my hopes up that things are turning around. 

off to nap myself as sleep was BRUTAL this weekend.

ttfn