Author Topic: unable to satisfy 15-week old  (Read 3158 times)

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Offline Maeve

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unable to satisfy 15-week old
« on: May 25, 2006, 13:54:54 pm »
Hello, this is my first post.
I am breastfeeding a 15-week old mellow fellow, as I was callling him up until recently. Until he was 8 1/2 weeks old he was a fast (10 mins, right from the start) feeder, who also spat up a lot and put on phenomenal weight, on average 12 oz a week for the first 6 weeks, once he stopped losing it. He had always woken no more twice at night. And he seemed very content.
Then, about 7 weeks age, he had what seemed like a growth spurt, waking early for feeds. But it never really settled down. I think I have eliminated other causes and that it must be a problem with my milk supply. For example, the first 2 weeks of the period coincided with a lot of disruption, so I waited to see if the return of routine would help. In fact it got worse, and began to affect his nights, as well as his days. So his 2 10-minute night feeds (and my joy of rarely losing more than half an hour's sleep) worsened. He has by now had every sort of a night imaginable. I thought it might be primarily a sleep problem, but he often falls asleep without a problem, and does still at times have his long 2 to 3 hour morning nap. I even did a pregnancy test, because I read that that can be a cause of unexplained problems with breastfeeding. I got him weighed and was gaining a normal (last time 5 oz a week) amount, not the huge amount that made me think his spitting up was caused by overfeeding. So I got Gaviscon, for reflux, which has improved things, but more in the laundry department. I went back to demand feeding as if he was a newborn, although as a newborn I frequently had to wake him. I even tried feeding him less frequently. Nothing has helped.
A few things make me think it is a supply problem. One is that I feel less full. And one night I was out 2 1/2 hours past a feed, and didn't feel engorged. Also we have been struggling to get him to drink formula and the first time he did was 2 nights ago when he woke at 8 pm when the next feed was scheduled for 10, but that previously would have been at 1 am if I didn't wake him. And he drank 4 oz of formula and had about 5 minutes at the breast. When his now 2-year-old brother had a week like this at 4 months old he went on solids and it did the trick, but at 2 months he was too young. I have just decided not to go back to work until 2007, and no longer need to get him to drink formula so soon, but it is formula or baby rice I fear, unless anyone can help.
I might add that he does seem to need a lot less sleep than he did. And he seems more unsettled than grumpy. The buggy or sling don't put him to sleep when he is like this, although the car seat does.
I am not posting a routine, because that has gone.
Any suggestions?
Thank you.
Maeve, mother to:
Con, full of fun (22nd may 2004)
Cathal "I'll do it" (9th february 2006) and
Sophie 'so far so good' (31st august 2007).

Offline Samuel's mum

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Re: unable to satisfy 15-week old
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2006, 21:00:09 pm »
Sorry if this is a daft question but have you spoken to a lactation consultant/breastfeeding counsellor? I do feel it would be worth doing if you are committed to breastfeeding long-term. Helpline numbers are on this page and the calls can be free. Your local La Leche League is also a free resource with trained LLL leaders available. Even if you pay for a lactation consultant it will still be cheaper than several months of formula feeding.

I know this sounds like a 'cop out' but you say you have eliminated other issues and a concern over supply is something that should be taken seriously. A trained counsellor could talk you through a pumping regime or the use of supplements for you. They may conversely have another answer (it is common at your point to stop experiencing 'fullness' and have less issue with engorgement).

Obviously solids are not an option as ideally you would want to wait until nearer 6 months and the more you use formula the more your supply will decrease.

So calling an expert is my suggestion!
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Offline Maeve

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Re: unable to satisfy 15-week old
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2006, 10:40:05 am »
Yes, thanks, I am waiting to hear from La Leche.
I think, because he was a big baby, 9 lbs when born, 6 months will be too long to wait, and I am not overly concerned about not making it to the full 6 months. And I know, because he is my second, that engorgement is less of an issue, but with his brother, if I had skipped a feed I would have known about it!
But I wanted to be sure that I had indeed eliminated other possibilities. Do you think there is something I might have overlooked?
Thanks for the input.
Maeve, mother to Cathal (mellow fellow, but hungry) and Con (full of fun).
Maeve, mother to:
Con, full of fun (22nd may 2004)
Cathal "I'll do it" (9th february 2006) and
Sophie 'so far so good' (31st august 2007).

Offline andrea21

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Re: unable to satisfy 15-week old
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2006, 11:18:07 am »
Hi Maeve,

I had a very similar problem.With my DD I had that much milk was like to melons joined together but my DS I didn't have as much milk,or the quality either.My Ds wouldn'tīt feed well either,I would change shirts just about after every feed and he was always puking up after feeds too.
He settled down than about 14 weeks he started to feed every 2 hours during the day for 2 weeks and he was crying in between the feeds to.
So after 2weeks of crying and feeding all the time I decided to try him on Formula.The first formula wasn't nice but he drank i,but now he is going really good with it.

I was concerned too as he was sleeping thru from 7 weeks from 9pm-7am,but after about 3-4days on the bottle he slept the whole night thru.
Now he feeds at 7,11,3,5.30,7.30pm then to bed the whole night.

I was ready to give up feeding too,I was enjoying it either.
I just wanted to say I had the same problem and going onto Formula worked for my DS  but might not work for you.
But everything you say sounded so much like what I had.

Hope this offers some advice
Andrea....



Offline daisymelan

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Re: unable to satisfy 15-week old
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2006, 11:56:49 am »
One thing I noticed is the three hour day time nap.  That could really be hurting his night time sleep.  I would wake him to help disrupt this routine (I know, that's painful!)

Also, my breasts didn't feel full much after the first month or two.  But my son kept gaining weight... and if your son is, I would think that your breasts are just behaving differently this time around.  If he has wet and dirty nappies and is gaining weight, then I would relax and worry about getting him back on some kind of a routine.  Since you are doing feeds every two hours, try to stretch it to every 2.5 and add 15 minutes every few days.  Perhaps the "Getting Back on Track" forum would be able to help you a bit better with that.

Also, be rest assured that all the good stuff in breastmilk is absorbed very quickly, so even if they spit up, they are still getting the good stuff they need.

Sounds like you are doing very well and your son just hit a rough patch.

HUGS!
Mom to O (July 20/05) and L (Dec 25/06)

Offline Maeve

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Re: unable to satisfy 15-week old
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2006, 12:03:52 pm »
Thanks  for your replies.
Andrea, it does sound similar, and he has eventually drunk some formula, mind you he has never slept through the night!
And I know what you mean, Jodie, about the 3-hour nap, and I do hate to wake a sleeping baby, but the thing is that nap had become inconsistent anyway. I am getting him weighed today, and we'll see. He seems fine, but I'm going crazy! But if his weight is still okay, and now that he has one formula feed at 10--11 pm, I'll assume his problem is the disturbance in the routine. Strange though to have a baby who gets more like a newborn the older he gets!
He will be 4 months soon. Does anyone know whether solids or exclusive formula is better from 4 to 6 months? Because exclusive breastfeeding has definitely bitten the dust!
By the way, his 2-year-old brother still has a 2--3 hour nap every day, but then only sleeps from 9 pm to 7 or 8 am.
Maeve

Maeve, mother to:
Con, full of fun (22nd may 2004)
Cathal "I'll do it" (9th february 2006) and
Sophie 'so far so good' (31st august 2007).

Offline andrea21

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Re: unable to satisfy 15-week old
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2006, 13:38:36 pm »
I think these days they say 5-6months for solids.With my DD she was 4.5months when started her on it and she was ready.
My Ds is now 5.5months and he has cereal every morning for last 2.5weeks and is starting on lunch now.
I personal think it depends on the child too,he was 4kgs when he was born and 8kgs at 4 months and cause he was changing to formula I hung off giving him solids until he was going with the formula.
He has bottles at 7,11,3,5.30,7.30pm and to bed until next moning.
He has cereal at 8am and starting solids at 12noon now.
I was going to hold off giving him lunch for another week but he kept on moving his lips and looking at you every time you eat,so he was ready for more food.

With sleeps,my DD was really good sleeper during the day but always woke during the night and early in the morning until she was about 7months,but my DS doesn't sleep alot during the day normal 3 one hour sleeps a day but he sleeps the whole night,so not going to try and change that as he is happy.

I no there is a thread in starting solids selection about when to start solids and what to look for.I found that handy.

Hope this is some help...

Andrea...



Offline daisymelan

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Re: unable to satisfy 15-week old
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2006, 14:55:20 pm »
It is recommended not to start solids until 6 months for many different reasons.  You can still do bfing and formula or even make it back to straight breastmilk if you choose.  But make sure you are educated about the different options. 

No need to add soemthing new to the mix because it could just cause more troubles. 

Let us know how you make out at your apt.
Mom to O (July 20/05) and L (Dec 25/06)

Offline CaedensMama

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Re: unable to satisfy 15-week old
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2006, 16:17:37 pm »
It is recommended not to start solids until 6 months for many different reasons. You can still do bfing and formula or even make it back to straight breastmilk if you choose. But make sure you are educated about the different options.

No need to add soemthing new to the mix because it could just cause more troubles.



Ditto on this! No need to start anything else besides breastmilk till AT LEAST 6 months - you can go longer too!

The only other thing I thought of is something in your diet - maybe try elimating dairy or soy or wheat and see if it makes a difference. Sometimes an allergy on their side will affect their eating.

And he may jsut be growing up a little more too and developing "an attitude" of some sort - more of a personality I guess!

It is very rare that a mother cannot fully satisfy her baby with her milk alone. There is usually some other cause making her or a dr think this is the issue and the real issue is an allergy, something else in the mix or whatever - more then likely IT IS NOT YOU and you can nurse your baby as long as you like.

Not "feeling full" at this point is totally normal and doesn't indicate an issue.

Another thought - have you had your first period since he was born? I got mine back when he was 2 1/2 mo old :o and noticed very obviously a day or two before I would start he would be fussy and I found that the milk changes in taste and the supply may be a little low for a few days right around that time. Not low enough that you would need to supplement, but that you may notice him wanting to eat a little more frequently.
So, your body may be gearing up for that as well!

Also, are you on birth control? I know there are some that aren't great for breastfeeding, so maybe take a look at that.

LaLeche League is a great group and I would highly recommend them and they should have some good thoughts and encouragement as well. For sure get in touch with them!
Jen
Mama to:
Caeden (6/05)
Colm (3/07)
Alannah (11/08)
Tadhg (8/10)
and Ailish due Sept 16, 2011

Offline Maeve

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Re: unable to satisfy 15-week old
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2006, 13:49:42 pm »
Thanks for the replies. The not feeling full was after missing a feed, not in general. And in Ireland, where I live the recommendation for solids is 6 months, but from 4 months on if he seems to need them sooner. My first baby was 4 months, in fact a few days before.
Yesterday he was weighed and he is doing fine, 75th centile for weight, 98th for height, so he is a big hungry baby. And I think I have now ruled out any other possibility other than hunger. I know he would survive fine with exclusive breastfeeding for the next 2 months, but I wouldn't, so I will start the solids next week, and if that doesn't help, formula. Of course we have by now got a few bad habits to iron out, but he is easygoing, so I think once he is not as hungry we will all be happier! I hope I am not jinxing myself by saying that!
Thanks again
Maeve
Maeve, mother to:
Con, full of fun (22nd may 2004)
Cathal "I'll do it" (9th february 2006) and
Sophie 'so far so good' (31st august 2007).

Offline CaedensMama

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Re: unable to satisfy 15-week old
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2006, 16:43:20 pm »
Maeve - hope things continue to work out - sounds like your little guy is a great size, don't think there is anything to be concerned about there! We have been in the 5-10% on the charts for awhile. Here is some info I found on introducing solids, there are some concerns about doing before 6 months, but you know your baby best!

From LaLeche League's website -  http://www.lalecheleague.com

When should my baby start solids?

Human milk is the only food that healthy, full-term babies need for about the first six months of life. The composition of human milk varies according to the time of day and the age of the baby, so that each mother provides the milk that meets her own baby's unique needs. Human milk provides immunity factors for as long as the baby nurses, and many of the health benefits of breastfeeding continue well into childhood and beyond.

Most solid foods are lower in calories than human milk, of lower nutritional value, and can be difficult for young babies to digest. Introduced early, they can cause unpleasant reactions and even trigger allergies. These problems can be avoided by waiting until your baby is ready for solids. Some parents have found introducing solids before baby is ready to be a waste of time, energy and money.

Your baby is starting to get ready for solids when:

    * he is about four months old
    * he becomes more sociable, playing and holding "conversations" with you during a nursing session
    * he has a growth spurt and nurses more frequently for a while
    * he imitates the chewing motions you make whilst eating -- he is practicing!

You will know that he is really ready to start solids when:

    * he is about six months old
    * he can sit up without any support
    * he continues to be hungry despite more frequent nursing which is unrelated to illness or teething
    * he has lost the tongue-thrusting reflex and does not push solids out of his mouth
    * he can pick up things with his finger and thumb (pincer grasp)

Babies who are ready for solids can usually feed themselves. Mothers often report that they knew their babies were ready when they picked up food from a plate, chewed it, swallowed it, and wanted more.

Listen to your baby! Babies with a tendency to allergies may refuse solids until later in their first year. As long as they are growing well and are happy and healthy, there is no need for concern.



From the kellymom website - http://www.kellymom.com


Why Delay Solids?

Health experts and breastfeeding experts agree that it's best to wait until your baby is around six months old before offering solid foods. There has been a large amount of research on this in the recent past, and most health organizations have updated their recommendations to agree with current research. Unfortunately, many health care providers are not up to date in what they're telling parents, and many, many books are not up to date.

The following organizations recommend that all babies be exclusively breastfed (no cereal, juice or any other foods) for the first 6 months of life (not the first 4-6 months):

    * World Health Organization
    * UNICEF
    * US Department of Health & Human Services
    * American Academy of Pediatrics
    * American Academy of Family Physicians
    * American Dietetic Association
    * Australian National Health and Medical Research Council
    * Royal Australian College of General Practitioners
    * Health Canada

Most babies will become developmentally and physiologically ready to eat solids by 6-9 months of age. For some babies, delaying solids longer than six months can be a good thing; for example, some doctors may recommend delaying solids for 12 months if there is a family history of allergies.
Reasons for delaying solids

Although some of the reasons listed here assume that your baby is breastfed or fed breastmilk only, experts recommend that solids be delayed for formula fed babies also.

    * Delaying solids gives baby greater protection from illness.
      Although babies continue to receive many immunities from breastmilk for as long as they nurse, the greatest immunity occurs while a baby is exclusively breastfed. Breastmilk contains 50+ known immune factors, and probably many more that are still unknown. One study has shown that babies who were exclusively breastfed for 4+ months had 40% fewer ear infections than breastfed babies whose diets were supplemented with other foods. The probability of respiratory illness occurring at any time during childhood is significantly reduced if the child is fed exclusively breast milk for at least 15 weeks and no solid foods are introduced during this time. (Wilson, 1998) Many other studies have also linked the degree of exclusivity of breastfeeding to enhanced health benefits (see Immune factors in human milk and Risks of Artificial Feeding).

    * Delaying solids gives baby's digestive system time to mature.
      If solids are started before a baby's system is ready to handle them, they are poorly digested and may cause unpleasant reactions (digestive upset, gas, constipation, etc.). Protein digestion is incomplete in infancy. Gastric acid and pepsin are secreted at birth and increase toward adult values over the following 3 to 4 months. The pancreatic enzyme amylase does not reach adequate levels for digestion of starches until around 6 months, and carbohydrate enzymes such as maltase, isomaltase, and sucrase do not reach adult levels until around 7 months. Young infants also have low levels of lipase and bile salts, so fat digestion does not reach adult levels until 6-9 months.

    * Delaying solids decreases the risk of food allergies.
      It is well documented that prolonged exclusive breastfeeding results in a lower incidence of food allergies (see Allergy References and Risks of Artificial Feeding). From birth until somewhere between four and six months of age, babies possess what is often referred to as an "open gut." This means that the spaces between the cells of the small intestines will readily allow intact macromolecules, including whole proteins and pathogens, to pass directly into the bloodstream.This is great for your breastfed baby as it allows beneficial antibodies in breastmilk to pass more directly into baby's bloodstream, but it also means that large proteins from other foods (which may predispose baby to allergies) and disease-causing pathogens can pass right through, too. During baby's first 4-6 months, while the gut is still "open," antibodies (sIgA) from breastmilk coat baby's digestive tract and provide passive immunity, reducing the likelihood of illness and allergic reactions before gut closure occurs. Baby starts producing these antibodies on his own at around 6 months, and gut closure should have occurred by this time also. See How Breast Milk Protects Newborns and The Case for the Virgin Gut for more on this subject.

    * Delaying solids helps to protect baby from iron-deficiency anemia.
      The introduction of iron supplements and iron-fortified foods, particularly during the first six months, reduces the efficiency of baby's iron absorption. Healthy, full-term infants who are breastfed exclusively for periods of 6-9 months have been shown to maintain normal hemoglobin values and normal iron stores. In one study (Pisacane, 1995), the researchers concluded that babies who were exclusively breastfed for 7 months (and were not give iron supplements or iron-fortified cereals) had significantly higher hemoglobin levels at one year than breastfed babies who received solid foods earlier than seven months. The researchers found no cases of anemia within the first year in babies breastfed exclusively for seven months and concluded that breastfeeding exclusively for seven months reduces the risk of anemia. See Is Iron-Supplementation Necessary? for more information.

    * Delaying solids helps to protect baby from future obesity.
      The early introduction of solids is associated with increased body fat and weight in childhood. (for example, see Wilson 1998, von Kries 1999, Kalies 2005)

    * Delaying solids helps mom to maintain her milk supply.
      Studies have shown that for a young baby solids replace milk in a baby's diet - they do not add to baby's total intake. The more solids that baby eats, the less milk he takes from mom, and less milk taken from mom means less milk production. Babies who eat lots of solids or who start solids early tend to wean prematurely.

    * Delaying solids helps to space babies.
      Breastfeeding is most effective in preventing pregnancy when your baby is exclusively breastfed and all of his nutritional and sucking needs are satisfied at the breast.

    * Delaying solids makes starting solids easier.
      Babies who start solids later can feed themselves and are not as likely to have allergic reactions to foods.

Hope that helps!
You are doing a great job - keep up the good work!
 :) :) :) :) :)
« Last Edit: May 30, 2006, 16:44:59 pm by CaedensMama »
Jen
Mama to:
Caeden (6/05)
Colm (3/07)
Alannah (11/08)
Tadhg (8/10)
and Ailish due Sept 16, 2011

Offline Maeve

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Re: unable to satisfy 15-week old
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2006, 08:45:49 am »
Thank you so much for the info. I know 6 months is the reccommendation, but to be honest, it seems to me he has been 'looking' for solids since 2 months. I can remember him gazing at our food from early on. And I know I could delay, but we have no history of allergies, and our public health nurse agrees he is developmentally ready. He has become so hungry, for whatever reason, that I have discovered that reverting to new-born style demand feeding, and adding one bottle of formula, has caused him to be happy on a 2- to 3-hour schedule day and night. He sleeps worse now than when he was born. But to be honest, I would not maintain that, with him sometimes waking so often at night that lots of bad habits crept in, and I would give up breastfeeding altogether if baby rice wasn't an option.
That'll teach a small woman to have a baby with a big man (I am 5 foot 2, and our son Cathal is on the 98th for height, I always feel I have to explain to people that my husband is tall, because they can't believe our baby's size if they see him with just me!).
By the way, small though I am, apparently I was so hungry, that, being none the wiser in those days, my mother gave me baby rice at 6 weeks! Someone did put her straight and she stopped, but apparently I loved it!
Maeve, mother to:
Con, full of fun (22nd may 2004)
Cathal "I'll do it" (9th february 2006) and
Sophie 'so far so good' (31st august 2007).

Offline CaedensMama

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Re: unable to satisfy 15-week old
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2006, 14:34:41 pm »
Sounds good!

Jsut have to ask - where do you live? I love the name Cathal and is the Con short for Conor? They are great Irish names, my DH is 125% Irish ;) - I wanted to put the name Cashel in the running for our next one but DH wasn't too thrilled with it. Rock of Cashel was one of my fav places in Ireland!
Jen
Mama to:
Caeden (6/05)
Colm (3/07)
Alannah (11/08)
Tadhg (8/10)
and Ailish due Sept 16, 2011

Offline Maeve

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Re: unable to satisfy 15-week old
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2006, 14:43:17 pm »
Thank you!
Yes we live in Ireland. Con is actually short for Cornelius (!) and is an 'old man's' name in Ireland. I think Conor is another version, and lots of people who have Con as a family name (like me and my husband) use Conor for the next generation. But we liked the old-fashioned one. Cathal is an Irish name, apparently derived from Cath, meaning battle (appealed to my husband, that bit!) I am guessing you are not Irish yourself, so just so you know, it is pronounced to rhyme with 'bottle' only with 'h' instead of 'tt', if that makes sense.
Maeve
Maeve, mother to:
Con, full of fun (22nd may 2004)
Cathal "I'll do it" (9th february 2006) and
Sophie 'so far so good' (31st august 2007).

Offline CaedensMama

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Re: unable to satisfy 15-week old
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2006, 14:50:48 pm »
That's fun!
No, I'm not Irish, though its a good thing, I like the irish names and all!
Jen
Mama to:
Caeden (6/05)
Colm (3/07)
Alannah (11/08)
Tadhg (8/10)
and Ailish due Sept 16, 2011