Questions on continuing the night-waking battle

[JKL]

Hi!  A few quick questions as I continue to try and fight my son's crazy night wakings (hopefully, this makes sense--I'm back in my sleep deprived fog!)!  Chase is 4.5 months old.  We are doing a 3.5 hour EASY (in the process of getting there, at least).  For a child this age, roughly what amount of time should I expect him to be able to stay up after his last nap?  Right now he wakes at 4:30 or 4:45 pm, and we put him in bed at 7:30 or 7:45.  I think this is too long, but any earlier and his eating gets crazy (feeds too close together before bed so he doesn't eat well and seems to wake up more because of hunger).  Also, he seems to be awake for the day at 6:30am , but it is so hard to tell because he wakes up so much at night (I never know when the "final" wake up should be!)  Is this messing up his "clock" because he is not down for 12 hours??  Thanks!


Jen

[JKL]

Just thought of another question (believe me, I have a million!)  In general, what are some things that might cause a baby who can put himself to sleep, and can transition through sleep cycles (at least sometimes) during the day, suddenly start waking up during every transition at night???

[Kimberly®]

I think at his age 1.5 hours is the max wake time. I'm not 100% on that but thats what I think.
If you could send me an outline of your day, your entire routine, including naptime, bedtime, nap routine, and bedtime routine, feeds, when and how much, I can get a better idea of whats going on and maybe help you iron it out a bit.

causes for waking; teething, growth spurt, to much daytime sleep (unlikly at his age) needs more daytime food.

Ask whatever you like and we'll try to answer them as best as we can 

[BabyBsMommy]

Jen -
I know you pm'd me but I thought I'd reply specifically to this post.  I think that your son should be able to stay up longer than 1.5 hours before bed unless he is really overtired, for example, maybe his afternoon nap was cut quite short.  When this happens with Brenden, we aim to put him to bed at least a half hour earlier, say 7 instead of 7:30 which means to make sure he is asleep by 7 he would be in bed by 6:45.  Brenden, who is also 4.5 months, usually goes from about 5pm - 7:30pm for his last wake up.  Sometimes, if he misses his catnap, he gets grouchy earlier, other times (like this past Thursday when I was up from 5:15 - 8:15 because we were out) he is happy right up until bedtime!  2.5- 2.75 hours seems like his magic number for now, until something else changes!  As for when to start his day, I got some good advice from Kelly, one of the moderators.  She said to make a point not to let him know that it is time to start the day before 7, based on the bedtime you and I both seem to have for our sons.  She said that even if it means feeding him at 6:15 and putting him back down to chat to himself for 15 min to get to 7, do it.  Make sure you keep the room as though it is still night, dark, curtains or blinds closed, whatever.  I too didn't know when to tell when he was ready to start his day because of all of the wake ups.  I have been following this advice for a week now and it has slowly improved.  At first it was 6, then 6:15, then 6:30 and finally today 6:45.  I haven't actually fed him any of these times because it has only been about 2.5 hours or so since his middle of the night feed but I have gone in to pat/ssh him back down as late as 6:30.  I was advised to not let him sleep late, as tempting as it would be, even if he has a bad night but letting him go until around 7:15 won't screw things up.  For example, a few days ago he woke at 6:15 and was fussing, at 6:30 I went in and patted him, he fell asleep at about 6:55 and I woke him up at 7:15.  Apparently, this will not only teach baby that this is when the days starts but it will start to program his internal clock, which I think is happening based on him sleeping a little later each day now.  As for the night wakings, I think looking at your routine would help, too - could be based on being up too long before bed coupled with some bum naps?  When we were transitioning Brenden from 3.5-4 hours is the time when we had the worst night wakings and the craziest feeds before bed so maybe it is part and parcel with the transition withing EASY?

[JKL]

Thanks for replying, guys!  Here is our info

How old is your child?                4.5 months

What’s his/her daily routine?        See below

What’s nap routine?                   Strip down to diaper, pull the shade, walk slowly around the house while I sing quiet songs to him (ab
                                               out 2 times around, in his room turn off lights, watch fisher price aquarium till he starts arching, turn                                             on fan and music, swaddle and put in crib. 

How long are naps?                   From 30 min to almost 2 hours.  Different all the time!

What's bedtime routine? Time?    I am playing around with the times, but right now, bath at 6:00, then massage, story, turn off lights, long BF, cuddling with Mom, turn on music and fan, swaddle, and in bed awake between 7:15 and 7:45.  He has to sit up after he eats for a while or he will spit up everything,

Do you bottle or breastfed??      Exclusively BF

How much? or how long?           10 minutes during the day, but before bed and at night, up to 30; trying to nurse to sleep, I think!

If breastfed.. one side or both?? (at each feed)  1, except at night when he will take both sometimes

How many wakes per night?        From 3 to as many as 7 or 8!

What’s your LO like when waking at night? How long is he/she up?  Cries and cries.  sometimes, acts starving.  sometimes, acts like he wants to go back to sleep but can't.  Sometimes, I can give him the paci and he goes right back to sleep (for a while), sometimes, he will eat and then fall asleep while I'm holding him because I can't lay him flat right away (I know, but what can I do--if he spits up in bed, he's wide awake again).  I always wake him up for 2-3 minutes before putting him back in his crib.  Sometimes, he will stay up for over an hour--like he thinks it's daytime.

When you go to him/her is she fussing or crying? Or is it a mantra cry?  Real crying usually, though I'm guilty of going in to a fussy cry because I don't want him to get fully awake.

What have you tried to settle??  Paci!  P/S stopped working about 3 weeks ago.  Haven't tried pu/pd--I'm scared it will make things worse!!

What do you do for A time and how long is it?  Trying to stretch to 1.75-2 hours.  A variety of things:  walks, tummy time, singing, vocal play, playgym, chewing toys, bouncer seat. books, playing with Dad.  Actually, not much independent time, now that I think of it...

Are there developmental issues such as teething or milestones?  Has 2 teeth breaking through, but we've had sleep issues from day 1.

Have you introduced cereal? Why, how much, and how many times a day? (for LO’s under 6 months) No

Do they have a prop? If so what is it?  paci

Do they have a lovie?No

I'll post my routine later...

Thank you!!!!!!

[Kimberly®]

Once I have your routine I'll have a clearer picture, but it looks like overtiredness at the moment. I'll see what I can tell you once I see the routine in full though

[BabyBsMommy]

Have you tried elevating his mattress?  If not, I wonder if that would allow him to relax after a feed on his own in bed.  You could try it and just sit by and watch to see if he's ok or not..... just a thought.

[JKL]

Hi! We do have the mattress elevated, and it helps a little.  I tried a week ago to put him down after he ate and he spit up through his nose, but i think he can go down after 15 or 20 min instead of 30--that's a little better.  Anyway, here's our routine at the moment.


                                      **Up at 6:30/6:45 am
E  7:00
A
S Between 8:15 and 8:45, so that total awake time is 1.75-2 hours
A  Till 10:30, depending on nap

E  10:30
A
S  12:15/12:30, or 1.75/2 hours from when he woke up last
A  Till 2:00, depending on nap

E  2:00
A  Till 3:30
S  Till 4:30/4:45 (I usually have to wake him up here)

E  4:30/4:45
A  Till 5:30
A  Walk 5:30-6:00
A  6:00  Bath, massage, story
E  6:30/6:45
S  In bed awake by 7:30/7:45

Thank you!!!!

[BabyBsMommy]

I'm no expert by any means but I wonder a few things, having seen your schedule.
1.  Is your son in bed until 7 when you feed him or is he already up for a bit?  If he is happy in his crib, you could leave him there until a bit closer to 7.  He will have had some low key time that likely won't affect the A time after he eats so he can stay up longer and you won't have to include that first fifteen min - half hour as part of his A time.  Kelly, one of the moderators, suggested this to me since I was putting my son down around the same time as you do.  According to her, this also tunes their inner clock into knowing that their day doesn't start until 7 and also teaches them to be a little independent and not to expect someone to rush into them right away.  This has worked really well over the past 10 days or so, he was waking around 6 grumpy but now he doesn't wake until 6:30-6:45 and is content in there until 7.  If he starts to fuss a bit, I just go in and leave the room dark but unswaddle him so he can play a bit but I make sure I don't talk to him so he knows it's still quiet time.  If he does wake up earlier, I have found he puts himself back to sleep, if only for 15-30 min.
Anyways, this may help because maybe he isn't tired enough when he goes down for his first nap AND it will help bump everything along a little further in his day so his catnap can be a little later and not quite so long which may help him from being overtired at bedtime.
I've read in quite a few places that for whatever reason, babies tend to have a bit of a shorter A time before their first nap but can go a little longer in the afternoon.  I find this is true with Brenden.  He is usually tired by 8:45 but sometimes I can keep him going to 9.  I usually try to put him down for his catnap after 2 hours but he can happily go 2.5, it's just if we wait until after 5 for his catnap, he's not tired enough at bedtime, he needs a good 2-2.5 hours of A time before bed.  Does he give you clear signs that he's tired before you put him down for his nap or would you be able to distract him with some quiet play or a little more walking around the house to stretch things by 5 min or so more every few days?  I found when I was trying to get Brenden to 2 hours of A time that putting him in a snuggli and walking around the house doing some chores before naptime got a little more out of him.

[JKL]

Hi!  If my son wakes up around 5 am and it has been over 3 hrs since his last feed, I'll feed him and put him back to bed, and he'll sleep till I wake him up at 7 (at the latest).  But, if he hasn't eaten since 2 or 3, he will wake up on his own between 6:15 and 6:45.  He'll lay in the crib for a few minutes chattering, but then starts to cry.  Sometimes I try unswadling him and turning on the mobile, just so I can get a little more sleep, and he will watch it and be happy; most of the time, if I unswaddle him, he cries, like , "Hey!  I'm unswaddled, now get me up!"  What you are saying makes sense, though.  I'll play around with it.  So far, with this attempt to transition to a 3.5 EASY, I'm finding that he can actually handle a longer A time in the morning (but his firstnap is 30-45 min!) , and then shorter as the day goes on. I just put him down for his third nap after trying to extend A a little (he was showing sleep cues after less than an hour and a half!), and he cried and cried in the crib because I think he was overtired???  I feel like he's constantly running a sleep deficit, especially at the end of the day, and then I have to wake him from his last nap because it took him so long to go to sleep.  But if I try to put him down earlier, a lot of times he will fall right asleep but wakes up in 30 minutes!???  I'm having a hard time finding a routine that works!

[JKL]

Karita,

Can you have a look at my routine?  I am getting ready to tweak it, but wanted your input first.  Thank you so much BabyBsMommy--I think you've helped me start to see what needs to be changed!!!!

[Kimberly®]

OK I've looked over your routine and first want to tell you that I too had a LO who spat up through the nose when put down after a feed, however I still put her down right away in the middle of night or she'd be up to long and be overtired. The first few nights I watched her for about 15 minutes, then I left her be. I always had an extra blanket or 3  in the crib so all I had to change was that in the AM, when your LO spits up they will most likely be fine. Watch him for 15-20 minutes to start. I think you may find that even if he spits up he isn't bothered by it. This saved my sanity and got me sleep.

As for your routine. I suggest you move AM nap to 8 as he is actually up at 6 I think thats a good time for nap# 1 try moving nap 2 to 1, and then a cat nap about 4:30(no more then 45 minutes)  Start bedtime routine about 6, then into bed by 7. In the AM if he's overtired it will mess up the rest of your day, and in the evening if he's up to late he'll be overtired and your evening is a mess as well.

HTH

[JKL]

Thank you!  Let me tweak and try it out; I'm sure I'll be back with more questions!