Tough To Wind Down

[Jenifer]

My 8 week old daughter takes SO long to wind down for both naps and bedtime (it can take 45+ minutes!).  She will yawn, have droopy eyes and even go out for a few minutes .. only to open her eyes wide and start the whole thing all over again!  (Most of the time she's opening her eyes because her arms or legs have moved involuntarily - I can feel it even when she's swaddled.)

I rock with her in her chair with a soother in her mouth and pat her back until she falls asleep.  If I don't do this, she will suck her hands, wiggle, arch her back, cry, look around, etc. and end up winding herself up (not down!) ..  Even in the car she will cry and cry until she falls asleep.  Seems like she wants to fight going to sleep or something.

Is this typical for this age? 

I plan to start trying to put her into her bed more awake around 3 months, hoping to teach her to go to sleep on her own.  But from what I see so far, it doesn't look like she can do it herself yet.

[estherofi20]

hi there

i would deffinetly suggest to STOP, rocking her now, 'cause by the time she is 3MO she will be totally dependant on you to rock her to sleep, so the sooner you start as you mean to go on is better... better for her... and better for you (i'm just telling you this 'cause i've seen the other side of the coin, the side where a baby who weights 26pounds needed to be rocked to sleep, imagine the backpains of the mother, and the poor kid who couldn't sleep unless rocked, 'cause that's the way her parents taught her to sleep, this happened to my niece and it was really painfull to watch). So what i would do is, keep swaddling her, and if you want to rock her a bit as part of the wind down routine, ok, but put her in the crib AWAKE, its really important for her to know that she is in the crib and that she learns to sleep independantly. I know that some babies, have difficultys going to sleep, this used to happen to my DS, i remmember doing the pat-shushing up to 45min to an hour just to get him to settle, but don't get discouraged, it can be done, it it will be easier once she learns to sleep independantly. Just to give you an example, my DS, went from needing 45min-1hr pat-shushing, to just placing him in the crib and leaving the room, it takes a lot of patience, time, and hard work, but it will pay off in the future!!!

But from what I see so far, it doesn't look like she can do it herself yet.

she will never do it by herself if you don't teach her how to do it!

hope this helps

[Jenifer]

Well, thank you for the advice.  I knew what I needed to do but I just didn't think she was developed enough to get herself to sleep.

We had a rough day - she didn't want to nap and when she did it was immediately following a feed (and only for an hour).  She was all backwards today!  So, by bedtime she was good and tired.  I read her a few pages of her book and I noticed her eyes were getting heavy.  So, I swaddled her and laid her in her crib, pat her back about 10 times and she was out like a light.

I know she can do this - she's done it before.  Its when she's not tuckered out that she can take 45 - 60 minutes to wind down - that's the part I wondered if it was excessive.

I will try to get her back on track tomorrow (eat, activity THEN nap), and try to get her to nap from a more awake state.

Questions:  How long did it take you to "teach" your son to go to sleep on his own (to where you could just put him down and walk out)?  Do I pat her back until she's out cold?  How do you go from patting to just walking out (how do you know they can just do it on their own now)?  Is 8 weeks too young to expect independent sleep?

[estherofi20]

How long did it take you to "teach" your son to go to sleep on his own (to where you could just put him down and walk out)?

ok... in my case the worst part was probably from 4 weeks old to 10 weeks old, after the 10 weeks, he started to need less pat-shushing, and just like a miracle, by 12 weeks, he didn't need the pat-shushing at all!!!

Do I pat her back until she's out cold?

I didn't pat-shush  him unless he was upsett.... and believe me HE WAS upset!!!!! LOL... so when he got calmer, i slowly decreased the pat and the shush, until he was totally calmed with his eyes closed, starting to sleep, but i stayed a few minutes in his room, until i was sure he wasn't going to cry again ('cause this happened more than once, when i thougth he was asleep, and left the room, and POW!!! crying again, and start ALL over again the pat-shush process )

How do you go from patting to just walking out (how do you know they can just do it on their own now)?

He stopped needing the pat-shush, i could tell this 'cause he got calmer faster, and then if i placed him on the crib he wouldn't cry at all, so that's when i knew he didn't need it anymore, and left the room, of course there where days, when he got agitated and did need some pat-shushing, but nothing like the begining!!! just a few pats and that was it.. And i did swaddle him until 4MO

Is 8 weeks too young to expect independent sleep?

well, in my case, 8 weeks, was too early for him...

I know sometimes it is frustrating!!! but believe me, it will work!!! Hang in there!!!
hope this helps

[Jenifer]

Well, here's something I've noticed in the last few days of trying to get her sleep on track:

We have a good bedtime routine and she generally goes to sleep well.  She may cry a little bit at the beginning of storytime but settles rather quickly.  I can swaddle her and put her down when her eyes are just getting heavy and she goes to sleep (with a little patting and a soother).  She may stir once or twice but then goes down and I don't hear from her until the middle of the night feeding (and then she goes down well after the feed).

Naptimes are a whole other story!     She does not want to be swaddled and basically fights going to sleep.  She will look like she wants to fall asleep in her swing or in the rocking chair and the minute I go to move her to her crib she is WIDE awake and then screaming while I'm swaddling her / patting her.  At this point, it can take an hour of patting her / picking up / putting down to get her to finally go to sleep. 

I should mention that in the early weeks I would just leave her nap wherever she fell asleep (ie: her swing, stroller, bouncy chair) - but it seems if I do that now she wakes up early.  If I try to put her to bed at this point, she screams, etc.

I think her naps are not "quality naps" because of all the fighting and upset and so come bedtime she is good and tired and goes down without much of a fight. 

So, what do I do?  Do I insist that she nap in her crib swaddled?  I can't take an hour of screaming 3 x a day - I'll go batty! 

I'm also torn because most will say she should be in her bed for naps and then I read posts of people who's babies won't sleep anywhere but their bed (which poses a problem for travel / visiting / going out / etc.). 

[estherofi20]

ok, jenifer, could you post your day, to see how long she is awake and all? 'cause maybe from what i'm getting is that you need to get her a bit earlier to her crib for naps. i'll post my DS's routine at that age:

7:30am nappy change and feed
8:00am activity
8:30 sleep
10:30 feed
11:00 activity
11:30 sleep
1:30 feed
2:00 activity
2:30 sleep
4:30 feed
5:00 activity
5:30 sleep (catnap)
7:00 bath and massage
7:30 bottle and book
8:00 bedtime
11pm DF

and he used to wake at 4-5ish am for another feed

I'm also torn because most will say she should be in her bed for naps and then I read posts of people who's babies won't sleep anywhere but their bed (which poses a problem for travel / visiting / going out / etc.).

well... not necesarily, my DS can sleep in his stroller and in his car seat, but he does sleep much better in his crib, so i totally respcet that, and i do prefer for him to sleep in his crib, 'cause then he is a much happier baby. And i guess that, just think that this happens only for the first year of his life (not even just the first months, when babies need more naps), is really not that much, you'll have tons of time to go out and about with your LO, i know at first its a bit frustrating to be at home, just teaching her how to sleep independantly, but this won't go on forever, believe me. i remmeber this used to upset me a lot, 'cause before my DS was born i was never home and allways out and about, well now things are easier 'cause his A time is bigger, but i guess it depends on what you want. from my experience, implementig EASY was a totall lifesaver, and it helped me understand my baby a lot more, and to know why was he crying and all.

[Jenifer]

Well, her start time could be anywhere between 7am and 8am (I'm struggling with waking her to start her day) .. but here goes:

8:00 am - feed
8:15 am - activity (diaper, chatting, swing)  She gets tired pretty quickly and starts yawning around 8:30.  I try to keep her up a little longer otherwise she wants to get up around 10am (which throws of the eat, activity, sleep routine - turns it into EASAE)
8:45 - 9:00 am - sleep  She will get drowsy in the swing.  If I pick her up she will wake up and be a bear to get back down (in her crib).  If I leave her there she will sleep for 1 - 1.5 hours
11:00 am - feed
11:15 am - activity
12:00 - 12:30 pm sleep  For this cycle she is more awake and doesn't start to yawn until around 12:00 and won't go down easily either.
2:00 pm - feed
2:15 - activity  This is where we may run a couple errands or go for a walk.
3:00 - 3:30 pm sleep (either in the carseat or the stroller)
5:00 pm - feed
5:15 pm - activity
7:15 pm - cat nap
8:00 pm - feed
8:15 pm - bath, story, music, bedtime
10:30 pm - dreamfeed
around 4am - night feeding

Today however, she only napped for 45 minutes midday.  She cried and cried!

[Jenifer]

I should also mention that sometimes she fusses through a nap - usually the dinner time cat nap - and goes without one altogether.  Which is why I think she goes to bed so well in the evening -- she's tired!

It also seems like on her naps she is only able to go one sleep cycle (45 - 60 minutes) and is unable to put herself back to sleep -- and often times looks and seems wide awake after only one sleep cycle.  At night she does not have this problem.


I'm interested to hear what you think.

[estherofi20]

ok... hmmm... let's see
- i would suggest to try to make her play a bit in her crib instead of the swing at 8:30 and let's see what happens
- also at 12pm if she yawns for one time, take her to the crib, don't wait for the 3 yawn (with my DS the third yawn was his last ok moment, without any breakdown, any momment later i would be in it for bad!)
- as for the sleep cycles, i do remmember my DS woke at the 45min mark, and i had to do pat-shushing for a while to get him to sleep another cycle (this was MOST disturbing when he usually started crying while i was in the middle of bath, on many ocations, i had to leave the shower with a bit of shampoo in my hair ), nowadays if he wakes up he'll go back to sleep, i know this is really anoying 'cause you feel you are working double, but it will pay off.

hope this helps!

[Jenifer]

Thanks for your suggestions. 

Playing with her in her crib is a good idea - I hadn't thought of that.  I guess I figured the crib should be kept for sleep.   She has a mobile on her crib that she loves and sometimes gets distracted by it when its time to go to sleep .. I wonder if play in the crib will confuse her - is it social time or sleep time?   Did you have this problem at all with your son?

I suppose I can put her in there and talk to her and see where that goes.  And, I suppose I'll just have to eat my breakfast after she falls asleep (I did that during swing time).   

Did you find you had a tougher time winding down your son when you started at the first yawn?  I find my daughter can take forever if I start then (going in and out of sleep, crying on and off).  Mind you, by the third / fourth / fifth yawn she gets real upset and fights it when I try to put her down too .. so there's no winning.

All in all, I guess my girl is doing ok.  We're taking baby steps toward independent sleep.  Just four weeks ago I stopped her sleeping in my arms at night and moved her to her crib .. so she's doing well given all the change.  Its just sometimes she fights it and fights it and I get discouraged.  Its tough to see the light at the end of the tunnel sometimes but I know it needs to be done.

PS: Glad to hear I'm not the only one running out of the shower ...   

[estherofi20]

jenifer, you are SO NOT alone on this!!!! {{{{{HUGGS}}}}

if the mobil on her crib gets her distracted, remove it when its time to go to sleep, i do this allways with my DS, its part of our wind down routine (play in crib a bit, then take the mobil out and store it elsewhere, give him his lovey, close the curtains, tuck him in his blanket and give him his paci, and leave the room), so trhat way she will know that the crib is a funn place to be, but also her "sleep santuary" if you wanna call it like that. i'm sorry about the breakfast thing, yeah... tha's what i used to do (eat it cold when he was already asleep ), but now i do it while he plays 'cause his A time is much longer, but don't worry you'll get to that point.

Ohh no, with my son if i got past the third yawn, i was in for it big time, so that was a no no in my case, so would suggest to start the wind down at the first yawn.

All in all, I guess my girl is doing ok. We're taking baby steps toward independent sleep. Just four weeks ago I stopped her sleeping in my arms at night and moved her to her crib .. so she's doing well given all the change. Its just sometimes she fights it and fights it and I get discouraged. Its tough to see the light at the end of the tunnel sometimes but I know it needs to be done.

yes you are, and you are teaching your DD the best gift she could ever get... independant sleep!!!! and i know how frustrating it can be, but it will pass, and you'll both be very happy!!!!
{{{{{{{HUGGS}}}}}}}

[Jenifer]

Thank you so much for your advice.  She has been going down better the last couple days.  Still fighting me sometimes, but all in all better.  I'm realizing that we won't always move forward and that sometimes we will take a step or two back to get where we need to go ..

[estherofi20]

You're welcome jenifer!! glad i could help you a bit!

[gnatliz]

Jenifer, glad to hear things are going better.  I totally understand.  Naps have not been great with my little one either. 

The posts made me think of a question.  I'll give you some background first.  My 9 week old daughter is still working on going to sleep independently.  I have just started the easy routine this week.  Next time I'll definitely start sooner.  Anyways, when I put her in the crib she always cries for a bit.  She is able to put herself to sleep with some comforting from me, usually pat/shh.  Should I play with her a bit in her crib so that she associates fun with it and then maybe it won't be so scary when it is time for sleep?

[estherofi20]

gnatliz, hi, i would deffinetly suggest you let her play in the crib sometimes by herself and sometimes with you!!! she will see her crib as a fun place and also a secure place to be.
good luck