21 mo old --one nap too many but still needs it?

[imsmum]

Margot is 21 months and after having a pretty regular 10 hour night/2 hour nap schedule for a while now her sleep seems to have gotten very mixed up after having a cold about 1 month ago.  We seemed to get through the night wakings etc and to have gotten back on track.  And then she totally shocked me by sleeping from about 8:15 to 7:15 for 2 nights in a row.   She napped on those days as well for about 1 h 20 min but on the second day she seemed a bit wired to go down for the nap and that night she didn't go down until 9 and was up at 6:30.  Since then her nap has been between 1.5 and 2 hours but she is still just sleeping 9.5 hours at night from 8:30 to 6.  She wakes up crying from both her nap and nighttime sleep and resists her nap, crying etc.  but then crashes. She still seems a bit wired at night and has some difficulty settling.  We have kept a very consistent routine, nap at 1 and we start her bedtime routine at 7 and in the crib at 7:30.

I've been trying to trouble shoot  this, and the following comes to mind:

--2nd year molars--haven't seen any signs,
--too light--we have black out blinds, they don't fit snugly so there is some lght, but not really any more than 10 days ago!
--too warm--it's been really hot here the last couple of days, we have a/c on, her room is at 25 C(about 76 F) at night, she's in footless jammies with a light sheet and her one blankie which she will not do without, isn't sweaty or anything when we go in the morning
--developmental, at this age some lo's can start napping inconsistently so maybe her night sleep is being effected instead of her day sleep
--schedule, needs tweaking?

She really can't nap until after 12:45 when her older sister goes to school or later than 3:15 when her sister needs to be picked up.

I would be happy to go with this routine but she seems so clearly miserable on her w/u's and trying to get down. any advice/insight much appreciated!
--

[sacmommy]

I don't necessarily have advice for you, but I've definitely got sympathy. I've been going through a similar situation for the past several months. I think Karina started doing this around 25 months or so, so a bit older than your lo, but otherwise the same type of thing. She used to nap something like 1-3, and sleep 7:30 - 6. Now it's more like nap 1-3 (or even less, I wake her up every day, so some days I experiment with just a 1 or 1.5 hr nap to see if it will help!) and then we put her down at the same time at night as before, but she often doesn't fall asleep til 9 at night!!! My best guess at this point is that she just doesn't need as much sleep right now. However, I don't want to drop the nap because I think what happens is they go through phases where they need more sleep and then the nap's critical to get them through.

On the flip side, it sounds like Margot maybe isn't getting as much sleep as she needs since she's crying when she gets up from sleeping. It definitely could be those 2-yr molars. I think it's hard to see them poking up, and it takes quite a while for them to come through (like months). I've also been wondering if Karina's molars are bugging her (I can see them now, but just barely).

Sorry I can't help much. I think the most important thing is to be as consistent as you can with your sleep routines and try to ride it out.

[imsmum]

Thanks Rose  I'm sorry to hear you've been riding this horse for a few months now.   

Well Margot screamed like anything going down for her nap yesterday but did fall asleep for her nap fairly quickly but then only slept 1 h 10 minutes.  She slept from 8:10 to 5:45, so an earlier bedtime doesn't seem to help us, only shift our day earlier.  So yesterday she had a grand total of 10.75 hours sleep.

On the one hand she is showing all those classic signs of needing to drop a nap--shortened night sleep, resistance to napping, but I am also reluctant to drop the nap--I mean she's not even 2 yet, there's no way she can go 13 hours without sleep!  I'm also reluctant in case this is something due to teething etc., although I've tried pain meds; they haven't helped.

I'm curious---how is Karina when she goes down for her nap/bedtime?  Other than the resistance in the last couple of days to her nap--which lasts about 10 minutes, Margot drops off for her nap quickly, in about 5 minutes.. Night time is a different story--she chatters away for an hour or more!  And I take it you didn't find the shorter nap changed the night sleeping at all?

[Florencia]

Manolo is doing exactly what Margot's doing this past couple of weeks (have they been talking on the phone or what?)

I've restorted to wi/wo to lenghten the nap and for night sleep and have been seeing some success (slight success dare i say)... he will go back to sleep for his nap, he's tired i can tell by the crying and rubbing eyes. The first couple of days i stayed with him during the whole "nap lenght", that is he woke at the 1:10 mark and i stayed till the 2:15 mark. He did go back to sleep. The following days i would just wi, comfort, wo... and he's going back to sleep but still wakes crying after 2 weeks. THe nights are pretty much solved but i think it's because he's been able to go back to sleep for the nap and hence, he's not overtired by night.

I guess it has to do with age, development (i also thought about molars and also can't see anything), I see this as a phase and I'm determined to help him go back to sleep and show him what's expected of him (that is, trying till the time is up either for nap or waking in the morning, if that makes sense) and cross fingers for him to get it LOL ... i know, crappy advice just wanted to let you know we're exactly on the same boat and i placed my bets on developmental. I too think they're too young to drop the nap even if they seem to be quitting it. Let's see how the weekend goes!

Good luck!

[sacmommy]

Sorry, I haven't been checking the board much recently! I can't tell if the nap length is helping Karina go down better at night. Karina never fusses at naptime or naptime, she'll just hang out and chat and not sleep. She's napping fairly regularly. When she does miss a nap, I put her down at 6:30 (an hr earlier than bedtime), and she goes right to sleep for about 12 hours. Sometimes I think she actually sleeps more if I skip the nap! But I haven't been tracking and counting hours to see if that's true. I track for a few days and see what happens.

Hope things have improved for you.

[imsmum]

Well we seem to have made some progress.  Margot has gone back to going down easily for her nap and it has lengthened but it is very inconsistent.  One Sat she napped for one hour and on Sun for 2!  When she naps for only 1 hour she won't go to sleep any earlier although I try.  On Sat I put her in her crib at 7:05 and she didn't fall asleep until 8:40 but was so overtired that I needed to stand with my hand on her.  It's like her natural sleep time has become 8:30 regardless of how her napping was that day.  She is sleeping between 9.5 and 10 hours at night so I figure she is only averaging 11 to 11.5 hours but she is now waking happy from both naps and night sleeps.  I figure that she must be getting enough sleep overall because when she doesn't she will quickly start with the night wakings. 

Thanks for your support ladies.  I guess our lo's are just shaking things up a bit for us and we'll just have to go with it, like the rest of toddlerhood!

[imsmum]

Well today Margot asked to to down 1/2 hour early for her nap.  Unfortuately, the nanny didn't comply so I can't say if it would have made any difference!! Anyone had any esperience with the nap moving earlier and whether this has increased/decreased total sleep time?

[sacmommy]

Moving the nap earlier used to make a difference for us, but now seems insignificant. Yesterday, Karina went down at 11:30 instead of her usual 12:30 or 1 p.m. nap time, and she didn't fall asleep until 9:30 p.m.!!!

[Harrisonsmummy]

Sometimes I have put Harrison down slightly earlier for a nap and really doesn't make much difference to him, other than him being more tired by the end of the day!!

Like Margot he seems to have dropped off the night time sleep at the moment, we are getting a lot of 9 3/4hrs, and I am not sure if it is still virus in his system or what. naps are back to "normal" ie 1 3/4hrs and generally no crying, and he is waking up happy in the morning. Not sure exactly what time - DH thought he heard him bumping around this morning at 5.15am - but he is quietly sitting there at 5.45am when we go in, so not sure!

Still as has been said before I can't make him sleep - he goes to bed at 7.00pm, asleep by 7.30pm, any later and he would be overtired at the moment......

I keep having a niggling thought - would it be easier to lose the nap?!! Or chop it right back to an hour. I am sure he would adjust - perhaps that would be better?

[imsmum]

Justine--I have that same niggling thought--hence, the subject line!  Rose, I think you said something similar, that you thought maybe Karina slept longer on the days with no naps.  I can't help thinking that we are at that awkward stage where they still need a nap but the nap interferes with having a long night's sleep, which reinforces the need for a nap, and so the cycle goes.  I think that they are too young to go a full 12 to 13 hours on a regular basis and that will likely happen is we'll start getting some occasional no nap days (well, I guess Karina has already been having those), and they will evetually drop off entirely.  I'm reluctant though to  not offer the nap in case she needs it but I hope that is the right thing--that she would not be better off without it if it means more total sleep. The shorter nap for us doesn't seem to mean an earlier bedtime--just a more overtired lo so I'm letting Margot sleep as long as she wants for naps, she seems to go down at 8:30 regardless, but I'm tempted to try to earlier naptime, which I may be able to do shortly since my older dd will soon be finished school and at swim camp so Margot won't have to wait for her to leave before nap--yippee!