4.5 month wakes twice same time every night

[jane mcgregor]

Hi new to this site,
                         hope i am doing this right. I have a 4.5 month old  little boy who always wakes at 2 am, i usually get him back to sleep within 15 mins holding his hand through the cot and putting his soft music on.Then he wakes at 4 am but i always have to pick him up as he starts babbling first then crying within 15 mins.He normally goes to bed at 8 and is df at 10.30 . sometimes i give in and feed him although he's not hungry,( as he only takes 3oz) , but it gets him back to sleep, tried water that doesn't work.He then wakes up at 6.30. i am shattered ay suggestions it seems like a habit to me but how do i break it if it is..

[chell]

Hi Jane and welcome to the boards.You must be feeling exhausted. Waking at the same time each night is an indication of habit, rather than hunger. You really need to avoid using a feed to get your lo (little one) back to sleep, as this will become a prop, and he will always need your input to get back to sleep. Have you tried gradually watering down the feed? There is a link which I will try to find for you.
To get him back off to sleep, you will need to use either pat/shush, pick up/put down (PU/PD) or a combination of both. It can will take time to retrain him, but with patience, persistence and consistency, you'll do it.

[chell]

Here's that link: https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=46907.0

[jane mcgregor]

Hi Chell,
         thank you for your advise,he is not waking up hungry he just seems to wake up. I usually do the rubbing of the back,holding his hand,the ssh ssh.that usually + sometimes the music gets him back to sleep at 2,it's  more the 4 o clock i struggle with, he wakes up very alert and usually try water to get him back off to sleep first if that fails he only takes 2 to 3 oz of milk and then goes to sleep till about 6 30.It would be ok and not too bad if he went from 10.30 when df to 6 .30 it's the waking up inbetween  how can i try put a stop to it. jane

[CLJK]

Although I am still up 2x a night with my DS (he never tends to wake at the same time, so I am not convinced he is not hungry at this stage), I am quite comfortable with letting him go six hours b/w his last feed and the first middle of the night feed.  So he nurses at 7-ish and then to bed, so our rule is I don't go in to put him back to sleep unless it is around 1 a.m. or later, and then I feed him.  Any time he wakes before then, I send in DH to put him back to sleep.  If I go in all he wants to do is nurse, and I don't want to have to fight him on that and I don't want him to think everytime he wakes up he's going to get fed.  I think it works out pretty well as now he is very comfortable with DH putting him back to sleep.  I take the post-1 a.m. shift, unless DS wakes less than about 3 hours b/f his last feed - then I send DH in again!  That doesn't happen often, though.  Is there someone else who can help you get your DS back to sleep so you don't have to resort to feeding him?  This method worked very well for my first son, too.

Now, if I could only get DS to drop at least one of his nighttime feedings, I would be doing much better myself.  I keep telling myself at the 6 month mark we will start to wean him from night feedings . . . .     

[chell]

Hi Jane, I am bumping this one, and will get back to you as soon as I can.

Chell

[chell]

Hi just wondering how its going.  I wanted to add that you need to be completely consistent in your approach - if you decide to water down the feeds, or are going to just stop, you musn't revert to feeding him, otherwise it just won't work, he'll know that eventually you'll give in and it will be that much harder again to get him back to sleep.

[jane mcgregor]

Hi Chell,
           been slightly better, still waking a couple of times in the night, but usually can manage to get him straight back to sleep by putting his lullabys on ,on one of these cot mobiles, if that doesn't work i just sit him up slightly without lifting him and give him a drink of water so touch wood things are getting better. only thing now is he's waking up between 5 and 6 am  quite happily playing but won't go back to sleep. it would be good between 6 and 7  cause by the time i get to bed which is about 11 pm i only get about 6 hrs sleep He won't take a dummy he's not a bit interested. can you also tell me when should i drop the DF ,he gets that at 10 30 pm. look forward to hearing your comments. jane

[chell]

It sounds as though you are doing really well. It is great that you are able to get him to go back to sleep straight away. We never did a DF, but Tracy says it is dropped at around 7-8 months, once solids are established. Can you post your routine, and I'll have a little look to see if there is anything we can do about the early wakings.

[jane mcgregor]

Hi Chelle, thanks for replying. Callum  is now 5 months old, he has been on solids since 3.5 months the health visitor suggested  it as he is such a big boy at the last weigh in 4 weeks ago he was 19 lbs.His routine seems to vary from day to day here is the last 2 days.

up:    5.15                                                        day 2,        up:         5.30
3oz:   6.00 (all he will take)                                                  2 1/2oz:  6.15
sleep: 6.15 (3 1/4hrs)                                                         sleep:      7.00 (1 3/4 hrs)
up:      9.30                                                                       up:         8.45
ceral:   9.45                                                                       ceral:       9.30
3oz:    11.00                                                                      3oz:        10.30
sleep:  11.15 (1 1/2 hrs)                                                      sleep:      10.45 (1 1/4 hrs)
up:      12.45                                                                      up:         12.00
feed:    1.30 (1 full jar)                                                         feed:      1.00 (1 full jar)   
sleep:    2.45 (1 1/4 hrs)                                                      sleep:      2.30 ( 30 mins)
up:       4.00                                                                       up:         3.00
feed:    4.35 (full jar)                                                            feed:      4.30 (1 full jar)
bath:    7.00                                                                        sleep:      5.00 (half an hr)
6 1/2oz: 7.30                                                                       up:         5.30 
bed:      7.45                                                                       bath:     7.15
df:       10.30                                                                       5oz:       7.30
                                                                                          bed:      7.45
                                                                                          df:        10.30

look forward to heaing back from you, Jane 

[chell]

Hi Jane, it looks as though Callum is finishing off his 'night time' sleep during the first nap of the day. Early wakings can be due to over tiredness or the first nap of the day being too early, which I think applies to your lo.

You could try to change this by gradually delaying her first nap in increments of 15mins, every few days, until you have reached 9/9.30 am. This will also have the knock on effect of pushing his naps forward, so that he is not up for quite so long in the evenings, after his last nap and before bedtime. The awake time a 5 month old can handle comforatably is about 2 hours, before becoming overtired. You want to be aiming for 2 naps of about 1.5 -2 hours, plus a cat nap at eh end of the day, to get him through till bedtime. You could also bring bedtime forward a little, so he goes down a bit earlier, if this fits into your day too. It is good to go by his cues, but it may be worth trying to structure his routine a bit more, so that his nap (and feed) times are at the same times each day.

HTH! 

[jane mcgregor]

Hi Chell ,
              once again, thanks for your advise, but before i go any further i wondered if you could send me an example routine of the last bit of advise you gave me.
 For instance if he was to have his first sleep at 9am  and slept 1.1/2 hrs then stay awake another 2 for his age that would be  another sleep around 12.30 then he was to sleep another 1,1/2 hrs which would take him to 2, then 2 hrs again would take him to 4  thats his 2 naps so at 4 how long do i let him sleep for ? and what time is the best time to put him to bed ?.If he went earlier would he not wake earlier ?
 In the middle of that he has to have 3 meals,not very keen on his milk really, have to coax him to take it, and i have no hope unless there is about 2.5 / 3 hrs betwen his dinner and his bottle going to bed.
Then  do i still dream feed.?
 Last couple of mornings not been  too good woke yesterday at 4.15 and this morning at 4 .30,took me an hour on both occasions to get him back off to sleep. Sorry for all the questions hope you can help, your advise is greatly appreciated.

[chell]

Hi, don't worry about asking lots of questions, that's fine, sorry you've had to wait a while for my reply. Do you have Tracy's last book TBWSAYP? If you do have a look on page 34..."4 hour EASY" that's the kind of thing you want to be aiming for. Remember though that it is a flexible routine, so you don't have to follow it exactly. You see they can have a catnap between their last nap and bedtime, which helps them to make it to bedtime without becoming overtired, which usually makes it difficult to settle them. Also check out page 38 at the bottom, this may be helpful.

No, if he goes to bed earlier it doesn't follow that he will wake earlier, often it has the opposite effect, particulalry if they are overtired. Alot of people have about 7.30 as a bedtime, but it depends on your lo, and your lifestyle too. With Jacob, he is in bed by 6.30, this is because he has an early sleep phase, which means he wants to go to bed early and wake early. (It used to be 5.30-5.30!). If I try to stretch him to say 7.30 he will wake earlier, plus probably have a restless disrupted nights sleep, as he was not well rested, before going to bed. When making any changes, it is important to do them slowly; With changing times to routines, its best done in increments of 15 mins every few days, so that they can adjust.

I know what you mean about fitting the feeds in. Why do you think he doesn't like his milk? Have you ever noticed any kind of reaction to it...such as reddening of the skin, worsening or flare up of eczema, change in his behaviour? How is weaning going? How much does he take at the DF?

[jane mcgregor]

Hi Chell,
           once again thanks for your help.Only read Tracys book BWCCC, the other one is ordered i have to collect it on saturday,so i will   make a point of looking at the pages you have pointed out.
          As for Callums milk he just doesn't seem to keen on it.When he was born he took it ok apart from he never drank as much as he was supposed to in each bottle,but the last 6 weeks or so he doesn't seem to be interested.
         I can only get him to take 3 oz in the morning & he  has to wait 45 to 60 mins after getting up to take that.Then he won't have anymore till bedtime &when he's DF, but the amount has increased slightly the last couple of days by 2 oz,he now takes 7 oz at bedtime,maybe this is because  his  routine has been alot better last couple of days,though still getting up really early.
        Weaning is going fine he has 3 meals a day (full jar).Will not drink  milk  with them(,have tried several times),has to be juice or water.
         His DF, he takes 6oz,probably more if i'd let him the last couple of nights(he's emptied thebottle).
         
         Here is his routine for the past couple of days.Please let me kow what you think. Jane 


         1st routine                                                                                            2nd routine
sleep is stagered due to been  away in the car                                               sleep better been at home all day

up          5.30                                                                                         up          5.15
3oz         6.30                                                                                         3oz         6.00
b/fast      7.15 (full jar)                                                                              b/fast     7.00 (full jar)
sleep       7.45    (2 hrs)                                                                            sleep       7.40 (2 hrs)
awake     9.15                                                                                         awake     9.40
lunch     11.00 (full jar)                                                                             lunch    11.00 (full jar)
sleep     11.30  (30 mins)                                                                          sleep     11.40 (2 hrs)
awake    12.00                                                                                        awake       1.40
sleep       1.30 (20 mins)                                                                           dinner       3.00 (full jar )
awake     1.50                                                                                         sleep        4.15 (30 mins)
dinner      3.15                                                                                        awake       4.45
sleep       4.00 (30 mins)                                                                           .
awake     4.30                                                                                         .
bath       6.30                                                                                          bath        6.30
7oz        6.45                                                                                           7oz         6.45
bed        7.00(asleep for 7.30)                                                                    bed        7.00 (asleep for 7.30)
DF          10.30                                                                                         DF          10.30



                                                                                                                                                     

[chell]

Hi, that's good that you have brought bedtime back a bit. Did he used to wake for a feed at about 5am? It may be that 10 hours at night is all he needs, but I still suspect that the last part of  Callum's sleep cycle has become separated in the form of his first nap. You may need to gradually push his first nap even later. This may work on it's own, but if he is becoming overtired, then you would need to use pu/pd to send him back off, first thing in the mornings.
 Regarding his milk feeds,  I think as long as he is not underweight, then I wouldn't worry too much. I may ask one of the feeding mods to take a look.

Oh yes here is the page for 4 hour EASY: