N/W support for spirited babies.

[campbellchick]

Hey Charlotte, I'm so sorry to hear about your days being so inconsistent.  I am having the same problem with Holly and her napping so am wondering if it is the 2-1 nap switch.  Her napping sounds about the same as what Charles is going through.  she started napping only 45 mins - 1hr in the mornings and taking a 1-1.5hr nap in the afternoon some days, then other days her napping was normal, then other days she has been refusing her afternoon nap entirely It is very confusing.  I think she is about to switch to 1 nap (which would sure make life a whole lot easier for us) but not sure if she is ready for such big a times just yet.  I am a bit confused as to what to do.  But this weekend we have inadvertently done just 1 nap both days.  Yesterday she slept from 11.30am (usually her morning nap is around 10am) until 2.30pm  then today she did from 11.30am - 3pm    I am thinking I might now take the risk and ask daycare to keep her on the 11.30am nap time for this week and just see how she goes.  During the past week with her naps being all over the place, she was starting to take up to 30 mins to settle for her naps, then over 1hr to settle for bed.  She normally settles straight away for naps and bedtime.  So anyway, in summary (sorry about all of my rambling in the process) I wonder if Charles might be starting his transition?  It does seem that some spirited lo's make the 2-1 transition quite early.

Anita - I'm sorry you are going through the same thing.  Maybe it is the same case for you?  I hope your days don't end up starting at 5.30am though - you will end up an exhausted wreck....  from what you have said below, I wonder if your dd is just OT.  Even if she has been having some short naps some days, then has a day of normal naps, she might still have the OT built up, therefore causing the NW's and the EW?  I wonder if it is worth you keeping a diary for a few days and adding up her total amount of sleep each day?  That should then tell you if she has OT building?

Anyway, big hugs to both of you again.  I hope your days/nights have gone well this weekend. xoxo

[anitad67]

i have always thought she was OT till recently.  for the last week, each day she got a good day naps, she would get a bad night.  on those days she didn't nap much, her sleep was better (relatively only of course).  with her 5:30 am wake up i can't stretch her first nap too late.  but without that how i can get her to 1 nap    totally confused...

[A pair of Charlies]

Hey Kerrie 

It's the 2-1 transition, but I'm hoping we're in the really early days. He can't do the A time.

My instinct is that the 5am wakings are OT. If I let him, he'll sleep a few hours in the morning or a few in the afternoon (I wake him from both naps at the mo). If he has 1 1/2hr in the am, he's hard to get down for a nap in the avo - he suddenly becomes capable of a 4hr+ A. It is frustrating. I've tried cutting that first nap down, but we still get the EW which is what makes me think OT. But when we did the 2.5 / 3 hr day naps, he had started the EWs....so I had figured UT.

Urghhhh. Just don't know what to try. As his days are so varied, I can't get a consistent thing going. And these neverending colds and teething don't help. Starting tomorrow, making a few changes: switching to goats milk (see if these colds are an allergy to cows...) for me and him, giving him a bottle of 4oz EBM after his bedtime BF (to rule out hunger, thirst), and starting back on the 1hr am and 1.5hr pm, but starting the am nap earlier, and going to pick him up when he can't get back to sleep and try shh patt etc, even if he sleeps in my arms. Tut tut, I know. Except of-course that he has sing and sign tomorrow am so his nap will be from 9-10 and so the whole day goes kablooey.  Also trying to bring that bedtime closer to 7pm to bring a straight 12 hr day (DH away for a few days so this helps).

I tried something different today which was after I caved in and fed him at 6.40 am (he'd woken at 5.15), and he got up with DH to party and have breakfast after his feed, we put him down at 9.15 for an hour. Then his next nap was 2.30 pm for an hour. Sadly, bedtime got pushed to 7.30 due to boys getting too giddy...but wondering what the earlier nap will mean. DH put him down awake, babbling without any fuss (no tired signs at this point either) and he went to sleep on his own within 5 mins....so clearly tired but not showing it....so OT EWs.

Urgghhh. I don't know. Will check on the 2-1 switches again for ideas.

Thanks - and so sorry that you are having issues, and that I'm useless and can't offer anything but hugs and ~~~~sleep at the right times~~~~~ vibes.

Charlotte

Anita!!    Let's make a pact that our LOs never date. Can you imagine the mayhem? They'd be partying all night, dicing with danger (both fearless).... and so stubborn. They can never meet. I already wonder if they're telepathically coming up with ideas between them. As soon as one of us gets one thing sorted, the other becomes immune to the same method / approach. Perhaps that's why they don't sleep. They're on some baby telepathic FB. 

Sherry: Hope you're doing okay with your transition. 

[campbellchick]

Hi Charlotte, I wish I could help you some more but I also feel a little helpless on the 2-1 switch.  Hunter did it so differently and even then, it took us months to get through it...  He was like your ds and would get soo tired early on in the morning and just couldn't last until lunchtime for a nap, but then he started refusing his afternoon naps, so he would end up having 6-7hrs + of A time.  It was such a horrible time for me because I was also sleep training Holly at the same time and transferring him to a big boy bed    Maybe this transition with Holly will seem like a breeze compared to that  .  I wish I knew what advice to offer you about the EWs.  Do you think they are OT or UT or is it dependent on what day it is?  I think it is hard to work out how much sleep they need overall, but sometimes I think that is the key.  If you knew that magic figure you could split the two naps to make sure he got enough/not too much and tied it in with his maximum A times.  I totally kwym about out of the blue longer A times.  Holly has been doing that to me lately too.  She can suddenly handle 5hrs A time without much fuss for her age!  But surely that is just too much...  She just doesn't show any tired signs though.  Anyway, it is very confusing, but I hope you get through it.  I hope he can stick to 2 naps for a while longer for you and I hope the EW's stop too...  That must be the worst!!!  xoxo

[anitad67]

Charlotte, i agree, they can't meet!!  they are already coordinating!  if i didn't give birth to her myself i would have wondered whether they were twin. lol.

i agree the magic number of total sleep is the key.  i am right now totally confused whether i should let he sleep more during the day or less.  last week each day she got 2.5 hour sleep during the day her nights were horrible.  other days with scarily few nap time went better although also got EW.  this got broke as she only got 1h45 min nap and also kinda waking up every now and then although she settled herself back down.  maybe she is OT and the first few days of good nap made her feel it more??

[campbellchick]

Anita, I agree that is a possibility.  I know myself if I have such a huge sleep deficit the more I sleep, the more tired I actually feel...  Have you ever had a good sleep phase with her?  Just wondering because that is how I work out if my lo's need more, less or average amounts of sleep at their age.  I know both of mine need more than the average, so if they are suddenly only sleeping around or less than the average recommendation - I know we are going to hit OT big time in a week or so... 
I agree that your two lo's shouldn't get together later in life - imagine how much energy would be coming out of that pair!!! 

[A pair of Charlies]

He settled himself at 5am today, then woke up at 6. I gave up by 6.40 and we got up - which isn't too bad for recent weeks really. Still had a weird 11.30pm NW. Gave him water, which he necked like he'd been dreaming he was in the dessert, then straight off to sleep.

So today I thought I'd take a different angle and treat him as if OT. So up BF in bed til 7am, then A up until 9am and then put him down for a nap. DH nearly keeled over in shock at how early and that he actually went straight off to sleep. For 1 1/2hr. Then kept him up til 2.30pm, and gave him 1 1/2hr. Put him in bed for 7.30 (later than I wanted) ...and he was acting OT. Whimpers, rubbing, yawning, flopping...it's getting the extra sleep I think. He took 2oz from a bottle at bedtime plus BF.

Will see how tonight goes. If STTN, then I'll do this for another few days and then drop down to 2 1/2hr day sleep...

I will find that magic number!!!

[campbellchick]

Great news Charlotte - I hope this means he is catching up on his OT.  Give it a few days, then fingers crossed he will be a well rested little bubba again and go back to sttn xoxo

[anitad67]

just the opposite for me here!  she woke up at 4am and sat there like totally awake.  i gave in and took her to my bed and she did fall back to sleep till 5:30 am.  then just flipping around and by 6:10 she is done lying down.  DH just got back from his trip so i can't really just hold her down like i did this past week.  she didn't behave tired and i put her down at 10 am.  slept for an hour.  then i tried to put her down at 3 but probably that was a bit late as she fought quite hard as OT.  weird she refused to nap a few days back with 3h45min but today 4h was just too much.  woke up in half an hour crying and i took her to my bed again and slept for another half hour or so.  put her to bed at 7:10 and she fell to sleep around 7:30.  both afternoon nap and night she cried longer than the last few days and tried to grab my hand again.  sad 

we never got real good sleep and almost always got EW.  back when she was like 2 month she started waking up around 5~5:30 am happily kicking her legs on the crib till i woke up.  then a lot of things happened, milk, surgery, etc etc and her sleep became real bad.  these days actually were the best for a long time so i am not really complaining but just want to figure out how to improve more...

[campbellchick]

Hi Anita, I just have a quick comment for now about the A times.  Holly is exactly the same.  Some days she can handle almost 4 hours of A time with no tired signs and other days she struggles to make it to 3hrs.  It can be very very confusing, which is why I have generally always gone with watching her tired signs to put her down over the clock.  I tend to think it is a spirited baby trait...  Also, I think your dd's sleep habits have developed like my ds's did.  He had colic really badly until 3 months (would wake almost hourly through the night screaming in pain) and during that time he developed a dummy addiction - after the colic, he kept getting sick with colds/flus etc. so he was always a terrible sleeper (I think it ended up being out of habit) and the dummy addiction didn't help.  He didn't start sttn until he was almost 2 years old.  Up until I decided to pin the dummy to him so he could find it himself at 15 months (he was lazy) I was still getting up to him up to 6-8 times a night to replace it (silly mummy).  But we eventually got there with his sleep then of course Holly wasn't a great sleeper either - so I've had over 2 years of sleep deficit built up and I think I'm still trying to over come it.... 

But anyway, really big hugs to you.  I'm not sure what advice to offer you apart from the usual 'stick to your guns and be persistent' if you are going to do some sleep training with her.  How do you put her down for a nap now?  Does she settle herself most of the time and just have short naps?  Do you think the EW's are just due to OT? 

[mollydolly]

Hi there i'm in desperate need of some help.
My spirited LO is 17 weeks and a terrible sleeper. We've followed the same wind down routine every day since beginning of December which consists of a relaxing bath, massage, feed whilst listening to white noice in the dark, sleep, bed c.7.30pm (still in our room) but every night is different and she goes from one extreme to the other. For e.g. 4 nights ago she went through from 7.30pm to 6.30am but more often that not we have a nightmare with repeated wakings.
She wakes at random times...last night she woke at 8.30pm - managed to settle her again quickly, 9.30pm - took a bit longer, 10.30pm - she was not going back to sleep. Ended up feeding her at 11.30pm but still awake and didn't manage to get her back to sleep until 1.30am. She then went through till 6.30am and I woke her for the day at 9am (never know whether to wake her or leave her).
She's stopped going back to sleep after a feed in the night now. Monday night she woke at 3am and didn't go back to sleep until 5am.
DH is a great help but we both get sooo frustrated with her and just can't understand where she gets her energy from.
She's very spirited and it's hard to get a good sleep out of her in the day apart from a morning nap which I tend to wake her from after 2hrs and then she may have another nap or two during the afternoon but she gets OT very easily. Our EASY looks something like this:
E 8
A 8.20
S 9
E 11
A 11.20
S 1.30 (not consistent)
E 2
A 2.20
S 4.30 (not consistent)
E 5
A 5.20
E 6
A 6.20 includes bath and wind down
E 7.20

Has anyone experienced these repeated wakings and can offer any advice?
Her NWs have got worse and it's like she's a newborn again....can't see this ever getting easier.

[Jenbutterfly2]

Hey mollydolly - I just want to send you some hugs and let you know that I could have written your post a month ago!  My DS is very spirited and we are still experiencing NW's.  I think there is a big developmental growth spurt at 4 months that sends babies into sleep regression.  My LO was waking a lot and not napping well in the day (he rarely had a 2 hour nap ever - most were 30-45 mins).  I'm happy to report that he is starting to nap better and we are now tackling nighttime sleep with a bit of sleep training.  Everyone here told me that LO's sort their day time sleep from months 3-6 and after the naps are sorted the nighttime sleep is supposed to get better around the 6 month mark (I'm still waiting and praying for that day to come).  That's probably what you don't want to hear right now considering that you potentially have 2 months of little to no sleep, but it does go by fast and every little bit helps I promise.  Especially when you can catch a nap in the day!

My advice to you is to stick with a flexible schedule (as best you can for a spirited one) and wind-down routine at night because it is setting the stage for longer naps/better nights.  Whenever I got frustrated at my LO I had to step back and ease up a bit on my expectations and the schedule.  Basically you just have to go with the flow sometimes.  It's hard coming to terms with the fact that our LO's don't seem to need as much sleep as other babies.  I still struggle with it!! 

Hang in there.
Jen

[anitad67]

i actually have no idea why she wakes up early all the time.  she is not really hungry as she is still very picky about breakfast.  if i get her up she can play happily till 8 or 9 without feeding.  even then she just gets really happy to see the milk, not that she complains for no milk.  i tried to delay the milk so she eats more solid but no such luck. 

the sleep signs are misleading.  tonight she was playing happily without any sign of tiredness till i forced her into bedroom.  then all of a sudden she started rubbing her eyes etc and fell to sleep in like 10 mins.  i was worried that she would be too energetic and hard to put down 

[sherry lynn]

Anita - sleep signs are still very very unreliable here. We finally just made the jump to 5 hours A time. He was up from 4:45 am until 10:45 am the other morning. No one single tired sign. Asleep with in 5 mins!!! Other mornings he's yawning and rubbing his eyes at 2 hours A time. CRAZY BABIES!! That's all I can say

Molly, you started with the E up there, what time does the day generally start, or more specifically what kind of A times are you working on right now.
My instinct tells me that those A times in the afternoon are WAY too long.

[anitad67]

last night was horrible.  her day time naps were ok.  1.5hr in the morning and 1 hour in the afternoon.  we got about 3 hr A before bed.  so i was hoping for a better night.  she went to bed around 7 pm and woke up in an hour just screaming miserable.  i went in and after a bit i thought she settled herself so came out.  in about 5 mins she started again and this time just wouldn't stop.  i finally picked her up and by then she just screamed and screamed till she threw up all over.  took a while to clean up the mess and took even longer to get her back to sleep.  she just wouldn't lay down.  doesn't help with DH still gets the poor baby syndrome.  then she woke up around 11 pm and 1 am.  11 pm was bad but settled eventually.  1 am she just jumped up and down in her crib wanting me to pick her up.  finally i gave in (thought she might be hungry after throwing up) and gave her 4 oz milk.  she settled after that but woke up 5 am again just wouldn't settle.  sigh.  don't know what's wrong and what i should do.