I need help badly

[Janeen1234]

Hi, my name is Janeen and my baby is Carson.  He will be four months in four days.  Over the last two weeks he has taken to waking up in the middle of the night and staying awake.  At first it was to practice his new sounds and to play.  We DID not play with him.  We kept it dark and did not encourage it but it still continues.  This doesn't happen every night but most nights.  I am so sleep deprived.  We tried CIO but that was not for us.  I bought the baby whisperer book and have implemented the PU/PD, shush, and pat.  We have been at this for four days.  He now is able to fall asleep in his crib with me there and is comfortable.  The screaming has lessened when I do this method because he now understands it.  It really works.  However, it does not put him to sleep in that 12/1 to 3/4am window frame.  He is a good napper and always has been.  I am working on getting him into a daytime schedule.  He is pretty much following the book recommendations on his own with some guidance from me.  He goes to bed at 8pm (asleep at that time) without a hitch.  Again, it is just later in the night that he wakes up.  I do the dreamfeed at 11.  Well, now he wakes up for his dreamfeed!!!  I don't know what to do about that either.  After the feed most of the time he will go to sleep for a bit and then wake up at his habit time of 1am.  It takes him forever to go back to sleep with the shush and patting.
What could be causing this middle of the night waking?  He no longer tries to engage so much during this time or talk.  He seems like he tries to go back to sleep but can't.  Sometimes he will fall asleep five minutes and then jerk awake.




Here is the answers to the questions posted:

What’s his/her daily routine? Wake up around 7/8am, play, nap within an hour to two, sleep for 45 minutes or hour and a half (lately it has been hour and a half), wake up, play, eat, and back to sleep again after about three hours of wake time, and this repeats itself until 7pm.  At 7 we have family time and play until 730.  He nurses, has bath, nurses again, and is out until 12 or 1am (now he has taken to waking up for dreamfeed that I started on Monday night at 11pm).

What’s nap routine?  Nap now consists of taking him to his room, making it darker, telling him it is night night, reading a book, sitting quietly for a bit, swaddling, give him his binky, and pat to sleep.  He does well with this.

How long are naps?  naps are now 1-2 hours.  Yesterday it was three hours but today I made sure they were no longer then two.

What's bedtime routine? Time? see above

Do you bottle or breastfed?? breastfeed

How much? or how long? At least five to six times a day

If breastfed.. one side or both?? (at each feed) sometimes it is one and sometimes two. 

How many wakes per night? wakes at 1am, 430, and 7/8.  Sometimes he falls asleep after the 1am feed and sometimes not.  I am trying to eliminate that feed by dreamfeeding so now he wakes himself up at 11pm for the feed.  Ughh

What’s your LO like when waking at night? How long is he/she up? He is silent for a bit, then fusses, and after ten minutes will cry.

When you go to him/her is she fussing or crying? Or is it a mantra cry? fussing and sometimes crying if I don't wake up fully at first.

What have you tried to settle?? we tried rocking, walking, CIO.  We now only do the shush and pat.  I don't do pu/pd as much cause he gets really angry and settles better with just patting and binky.

What do you do for A time and how long is it? I think this is alone time?  I have it from 8-12 every night.  I talk to my DH, get on the internet, read, clean up, watch tv, etc.

Are there developmental issues such as teething or milestones?  He has learned to make different sounds, laugh out loud, and grab toys

Have you introduced cereal? Why, how much, and how many times a day? (for LO’s under 6 months) NO

Do they have a prop? If so what is it? eliminated them, he does have a binky

Do they have a lovie? yes, but does not sleep with it.

After doing this I see he has had loads of changes within the last week.  He was moved to his own room and we are doing the sleep training.  However, this night waking has continued for the last two weeks and has not gotten better?

Thanks

[Colin Macs Mom]

Hi Janeen, welcome to BW! It looks to me like you are doing absolutely fantastic, especially for having a lo only 4 months and also having just begun the techniques. You are definitely on the right track and it really is great that your lo is responding so well after only 4 days.  good for you!! I love the name Carson too!

Here are few questions/suggestions/babble -

It is quite normal for a 4 mo old to still wake in the night. The issue really is determining if it's a waking for a purpose, or just an age-related waking, if that makes sense. I see that his awake time each cycle is three hours, is that correct? That is quite a long time for a 4 month old. Are you certain that he can handle that? Some los can, but it's not so common. He might be getting overtired, and that's why he's napping longer and then waking at night. I would try cutting that time back unless you are certain that he can handle three hours.

When you are going in at night, is he full-on crying? An I Need You cry rather than just a cry? It can be so easy to go in too soon and interfere with their self-settling without realizing it so I want to be sure that you are giving him a chance to learn to self-soothe and settle on his own.

It's also quite normal for a 4 mo old to still need a night feed. I wouldn't try and eliminate the 1am feed yet, it's likely that he genuinely needs it. I would move the dreamfeed forward to 10pm though.

Really glad to hear that you didn't keep with the CIO. I'm sure you know that BW doesn't support that at all, as it breaks the trust between parent and child. He needs to know that you will be there when he needs you. Depending on how long you tried it for, you may be seeing some trust issues at night and if so, that trust will need to be rebuilt with your lo - which means going to him when he needs you. 

[Janeen1234]

Thank you sooo much for responding.

I am confused if the 1am is really a feed or not.  I was thinking he really didn't need it if he just had a dreamfeed at 11pm.  I thought they went longer at night.  Maybe I am just expecting to much from him? 
I dont know why I wrote that he stays up for three hours.  He stays awake for two hours before sleeping again.  Yep I just checked the schedule I am writing out and it is two hours of awake before he needs to go to sleep again.  I am confused when the book said that he should be going in four increments.  What does that mean then?

He really was not on a schedule before so that is why his naps are just now extending longer.  I am paying attention more to when he needs to sleep and reading cues better.  Before we were pretty much hitting the mark but not as much as we are now.

At night he does not full on cry.  It is whimpering for sometime before it is full on crying.  Its hard to be awake and listen to it.  I get impatient and want to get started getting him back to sleep.  Need to work on that.

I wanted to add that before when he would wake up for those long periods of time he would eat and still just lie awake.  After eating he would start cooing and practicing sounds.  Then he would start crying and I would try to settle.  Its nerve racking really.  Any reason why this is continuing for so long?

If he goes to bed at 8pm should I still do the dream feed at that time.  Before I started the dream feed he would naturally sleep from 830 to 130.  Now that is a thing of the past since we implemented the dream feed?  He is waking up for the 1am feed regardless of the dream feed.  He is also waking up for the 11pm dream feed now.  Ughhh

Thanks!

[Janeen1234]

Meant to add that we did full on CIO one night.  It was the most awful experience of my life and I will NEVER do it again.  I think all of us cried that night.  My DH went and got him and put him in bed with us.  He has not slept with us since he was a mere hatchling.

There doesn't seem to be any trust issues with it though.  He does want me to stay but sometimes can fall asleep on his own but has been awhile.

[Colin Macs Mom]

Yeah, that CIO thing really is awful I don't know how people can do that to tell you the truth. That's more work that doing the sleep training I think.

I am confused if the 1am is really a feed or not.  I was thinking he really didn't need it if he just had a dreamfeed at 11pm.  I thought they went longer at night.  Maybe I am just expecting to much from him? 
I dont know why I wrote that he stays up for three hours.  He stays awake for two hours before sleeping again.  Yep I just checked the schedule I am writing out and it is two hours of awake before he needs to go to sleep again.  I am confused when the book said that he should be going in four increments.  What does that mean then?

Two hours between those feeds isn't a lot of time, that's true - I would think he could go longer at night. We never did a dreamfeed as it disturbed his sleep too much, but he had a night feed at 3 or 3:30 am until we weaned it at 6.5 months. That's why I was thinking that if you did the DF at 10:00 then it would be three hours between the feeds which would be more reasonable. Or, you could try and resettle him at 1 and then feed him later in the night.

At night he does not full on cry.  It is whimpering for sometime before it is full on crying.  Its hard to be awake and listen to it.  I get impatient and want to get started getting him back to sleep.  Need to work on that.

  My DH is the same way - one little noise and he's convinced DS is awake and needs attention. Believe me, I know how annoying it is to listen to that, but if you don't, he won't learn to self-soothe and put himself back to sleep.

I wanted to add that before when he would wake up for those long periods of time he would eat and still just lie awake.  After eating he would start cooing and practicing sounds.  Then he would start crying and I would try to settle.  Its nerve racking really.  Any reason why this is continuing for so long?

My DS used to do that too! So frustrating. I never did figure out the why part for sure. I do wonder though if it has something to do with the flow of things that we teach them - meaning that after eating is A time. That would mean that it's necessary to teach them that if you eat at night you go back to sleep as opposed to during the day.

If he goes to bed at 8pm should I still do the dream feed at that time.  Before I started the dream feed he would naturally sleep from 830 to 130.  Now that is a thing of the past since we implemented the dream feed?  He is waking up for the 1am feed regardless of the dream feed.  He is also waking up for the 11pm dream feed now.  Ughhh

I would suggest ending the dreamfeed. It can be a beautiful thing for many people, but for some it can also make things worse. It did for me - it just made DS angry to be woken and it disturbed his sleep patterns for the rest of the night and he woke even more.    Sounds like that might be what's happening for you too, especially if was sleeping until 1:30 before.

[Janeen1234]

I too am thinking that dreamfeeds might not be the answer for us.  He is waking up for them and all.  We will see how tonight goes.

Good news though.......
I let him talk to himself and do his mantra cry and he put himself to sleep!!!!!!!!!!!!!  He has never ever done that before.
For two naps today he put himself to sleep too.  I turned on his baby einstein aquarium, gave him some rubs and left him alone.  He hardly did any talking or fussing.  He went right to sleep on his own.  This is so HUGE for Carson.  I am stinking thrilled.

[Colin Macs Mom]

YAY!!!! That is fantastic!!!!!! You're really doing a great job!