Author Topic: a little confused now.. (Read 2827 times)

mljlmr · « **on:** June 12, 2006, 14:12:47 pm »

I posted this on the general sleep issues board but thought id post it here too.

First off, this is DD's routine.
6/6:30-up
eat
8/8:30 nap (1/2hour or 45 min max)
10:30 eat
10:45 or 11-1ish-nap
2;30 eat
3:30-nap (maybe 1/2 hour or 45 minutes max)
6:30-eat
then bed after feed.

I posted last week that maybe she needs to switch to 2 naps, since the 1 and 3rd naps are short. But lately i have noticed that my problem is this. SHe wakes between 5 and 5:30 and shes in and out of sleep till about 6, sometimes 6:30. So when she gets up, i start her day at that time. Ive noticed that shes very tired after an hour of being up. She eats, plays a little, then fusses. This lasts maybe 45 minutes, and then shes all tired and cranky again. So the last few dyas that i have put her back to sleep at this time, and she has slept for an hour or hour and a half, which means she "gets up" at 7:30 or 8 now. Obvioulsy this will mess up the schedule we already have. any thoughts? is she overtired at the 8:30 nap and thats why shes not sleeping long? How do i count the in/out sleep? any suggestions? anything would help, thanks!

corrina01 · « **Reply #1 on:** June 12, 2006, 15:37:28 pm »

How old is your DD?

mljlmr · « **Reply #2 on:** June 12, 2006, 15:41:11 pm »

im sorry shes 4 1/2 months old!

corrina01 · « **Reply #3 on:** June 12, 2006, 19:30:52 pm »

Quote (selected)

is she overtired at the 8:30 nap and thats why shes not sleeping long?

Yes it is, since she has been up at 5am.

When she wakes at 5am/5.30am is she hungry? If she is, treat this as a nightfeed, put her straight back to bed. There is a growth spurt round about the 4 month mark, maybe early wake up is due to this.

What time do you want to start the day?

Her dinnertime nap is it always a 2hr nap? That is good if it is.

How long is she able to stay awake for before getting tired or fussy? As the afternoon 'A' time is 2 1/2hrs. Is this right? If it is, then she is overtired for the afternoon nap.

BoBoG · « **Reply #4 on:** June 12, 2006, 20:30:06 pm »

Hi there, I hope you don't mind that I've joined in - but I too am a little confused with our sons EASY. He'll be 4-months on the 20th and I'm thinking that we should/can (?) start making the transition into a 3.5 or 4 hours routine. He's been on a 3-hour routine since about 6 weeks old and he's been doing fine with it. Soon after we started him the routine he started sleeping through the night from about 7:30-8:00 p.m. until about 6:00-7:00 a.m. The odd night we woke to feed but otherwise he slept through without a problem. We struggled with 30-45 minute nap problems for about 3-4 weeks but this has improved quite a bit for the past 2 weeks. What I've been noticing is that he's waking earlier and earlier though for the past 2 weeks - waking at 4'ish a few times and mostly waking during the 5 a.m. hour - and I've been offering him a feed and he takes a full breast feed every time. This morning he started talking at about 5:15 a.m. - it turned into a little fussing and when I went in and tried to just settle - it didn't work. I offered a feed and again he took a full feed. I put him back down and he eventually fell asleep on his own at 6:30 ..... sleeping until 9:45 a.m.!!! I really struggled with this as I didn't know if I should have woke him up, if not by 7 or 7:30... but atleast by 8 in order to give him his first feed of the day. Well I decided to let him sleep 'cause the words "never wake a sleeping baby" kept ringing in my ears. I gave him his first feed within minutes - he seemed to have been doing fine - not crying and was not fussy at all.... just smiling and clearly well rested! Today was the first day that I lengthened his activity and feed time ... his activity was 2 hours, he slept for only 45 minutes, fed again at 1:30 had 2 hours of activity, slept for 40 minutes... he just woke up, I used PU/PD to get him down and he's been down so far for 10 minutes.....

Is this all too much too fast? I was looking at the BW's guide for transitioning (extending first by 15 minutes) - but I'm wondering if it'll be too much to make a bigger jump -extending by 30-minutes?? If you extend the feed times by 30 minutes - to 3.5 hour intervals... does everything else just follow the new feed cycle? How and when do you drop a nap from 3 to 2?? that's worries me the most 'cause we're JUST starting to recover to better naps (he's improved to having three 1 - 1 hour and 15 minute naps in a day,, and an early evening 15-25 minute cat nap) - I'm worried that he won't be able to sleep the 1.5-2 hour stretch only 2 times a day?? do you have any advice to pass along?

I'd really appreciate it....

corrina01 · « **Reply #5 on:** June 12, 2006, 20:55:06 pm »

BoBoG Could you post his routine.

They normally drop to 2 naps around about the 7 months, some can be early as 6 months and some can be late, like my DD. She went down from 3 naps to 2 at 8 1/2 months.

BoBoG · « **Reply #6 on:** June 12, 2006, 21:15:56 pm »

hi thanks for getting back to me so quickly.... up until today he was on this routine (feeding every 3 hours - activity/up for about 1 hour and 40 minutes and then sleep until the next feed). keeping in mind that he's been waking during the 5:00 a.m. hour for the past few weeks, which I treat as a night feed - he always takes a full feed ..

first feed of day is usually 7:00 (depending on how long he sleeps for after his 5'ish feed)
A 7:30-8:30
S 9:00-10:00

E 10:00
A 10:30-11:30
S 12:00-1:00

E 1:00
A 1:30-2:30
S 3:00-4:00

E 4:00
A 4:30-5:30
S 6:00-6:30'ish

E 7:00
S 7:30/8:00.....

Just to be clear.... the A includes his feeding time right? Well we got through this nap -he woke up twice during it but slept 35 minutes, then 15 minutes, then 30 minutes. The first thing that comes to mind... was/is he ovetired from all the activity and inadequate sleep??? Well I'm going to give him his feed now... I'll check in, in a little bit.... thanks,

mljlmr · « **Reply #7 on:** June 12, 2006, 22:53:21 pm »

Thank you corrina for your suggestions. She eats during the night around 2 or 3, so she can last till 6 or 7, but lately she has woken around 5 or 5:30, and i try to put her back to sleep. So when she wakes the first time (5 or 5:30) treat that as the "up" time if she doesnt go back? She can stay awake without being cranky for 2hours 15 minutes to 2 1/2 hours. Morning time is shorter, as i said, she gets cranky within the hour of being up.
She is teething horribly, so i know that can play a part. thank you for your help!
yes, her 2nd nap is always the longest, most of the time 2 hours long.

corrina01 · « **Reply #8 on:** June 13, 2006, 05:48:05 am »

mljlmr

Oh the teething.

If it is any consolation my DD always suffers with short naps when she is teething, and wakes up at 5am

corrina01 · « **Reply #9 on:** June 13, 2006, 09:44:03 am »

BoBo

Quote (selected)

Just to be clear.... the A includes his feeding time right?

Yes it does.

Is he cranky/or fussy with the 2hr 'A' time?

If not, I would move him on to a 4hr EASY,

So it would go like this

7am Wake and feed
9am Sleep for 2hrs
11am Wake and feed
1pm Sleep for 2hrs
3pm Wake and eat
5pm Sleep for 30-45mins
7pm Eat then bed

Have you been giving him a dreamfeed?

BoBoG · « **Reply #10 on:** June 13, 2006, 11:29:28 am »

what would you recommend if he gets up at 6 a.m.? He woke up at 6 today - talked for a while in his crib and then I fed him at 6:30. I think we can handle 2 hours of A.... but what about the 2 hours for sleep? Do I just keep doing PU/PD to extend it??

BoBoG · « **Reply #11 on:** June 13, 2006, 12:04:05 pm »

... sorry, I forgot to mention that I have never given him a dreamfeed.

corrina01 · « **Reply #12 on:** June 13, 2006, 19:18:13 pm »

If he wakes at 6am, you could either extend the catnap for 45mins-1hr and still have a bedtime of 7pm or put him to bed earlier say like 6.30pm. That doesn't necessarily mean he will be up at 6.30am, the overtired the babies are the earlier to bed you put them, they will still wake up roughly the same time.

Quote (selected)

Do I just keep doing PU/PD to extend it??

Yes you do. As you are going to change the routine slightly you will have to do PU/PD. Some babies go through the transition as if nothing has ever changed. It shouldn't take any more than a few days if your DS is put out about the change.

Keep us updated, if he can't handle 2hrs 'A' time then you will have to go onto a 3.5hr EASY.

HTH

BoBoG · « **Reply #13 on:** June 13, 2006, 21:14:01 pm »

Hi Corrina.... thanks for the input. Here's what's happened today - DAY 1 of 4-hour EASY:

6 a.m. - woke up
E - 6:30
A - 6:50-7:50
S - 8:10-8:45 (I think it was a phantom cry - I didn't rush in and it only lasted, literally 2 minutes...) THEN he settled and slept from
8:47 - 10:20 (yipee!!)

E - 10:30
A - 10:50 - 11:50 (BUT he was showing definite signs of fatigue by 11:30'ish - so I removed him from the room and just walked around the house with him for a bit.... and then did a diaper change and our wind down, which includes swaddle with one arm out)
S - 12:00 - 12:40 (had to use PU/PD - only 2 times though in order to settle him after waking, then I left him in his crib with his eyes open and he fell asleep on his own - yippee!!)
1:00 - 1:15 (again had to use PU/PD to get hiim to settle .... )
1:30-2:00 p.m. (at which point I stopped trying to get him back to sleep - he looked better rested than he did after the initial 40 minutes of sleep. I let him wake up slowly and slowly introduced A time...

E - 2:30
A - 2:50 -3:50 (again showing first signs of fatigue at 3:30'ish.... - so we removed him from active A and calmed things down - walking around the house for a bit)
S - 4:00 - 4:30 (woke up - wouldn't settle on own after 1 or 2 minutes so I did 1 PU/PD with a little shushing and he settled easily)
he's been sleeping since 4:40.... and it 5:05 now!!!

If you're on-line do you think I should wake him soon (as per your recommended 45 mins - 1 hour nap before bedtime)??

What do you think? see anything that doesn't look right??? I personally think that he did okay with extending his feed times BUT struggled a bit as the day progressed with the extending A times. I'm thinking that until he makes a true transition to the 4-hour EASY - I should not try to push his A time too much in order to avoid overtired - which is why I think he was waking during nap 2 and nap 3.

any thoughts?

12:50

corrina01 · « **Reply #14 on:** June 14, 2006, 08:57:06 am »

BoBo

You could transition him to a 3.5hr EASY, so his A times are 1.30-1.40 and the rest sleep.

My DD was on a 3.5hr EASY until she was 6 months, until I knew she was ready to go 2 hours 'A' time.

I'll post my typical routine when DD was about 4 months and I was trying to get her through the next sleep cycle at this time and she needed more naps

7am Wake and Feed
8.45am Sleep for 1.30hrs (total)
10.30 Wake and feed
11.50am Sleep for 1.35hrs
1.25pm Wake
1.30pm Feed
2.50pm Sleep 1.35hrs
4.25pm Wake
4.30pm Feed
5.35pm Sleep for 30mins
7pm Feed then bed

BoBoG · « **Reply #15 on:** June 14, 2006, 12:11:19 pm »

thanks for the routine... You know, that I stop and think about it... on the 3-hour feed cycle I was actually giving him (and he was okay with) about 1 hour and 30-40 minutes of A time.... that was more like the 3.5 hour EASY wasn't it??

So, I'd like to try to increase that perhaps only by 10-15 minutes rather than jump to 2 hours or so of A time (as per the 4-hour EASY). This way we'll slowly make our way to a full 4-hour routine.

Just to give you an update, he fell asleep by 8 p.m. last night and slept through to 6 a.m this morning. He talked for a while and then I went to start his feed by 6:30 a.m. He had A time until 7:45 (started to get fussy)...we did our wind down, and he fell asleep just by 8:00. What do you think about doing an almost-4 hour EASY in the morning, and then a 3.5 EASY routine for the rest of the day? This way we slowly start working on 1 cycle at a time? any thoughts?

corrina01 · « **Reply #16 on:** June 14, 2006, 13:13:46 pm »

By all means do this, if your DS can handle it.

Here is a little information about the transition. Your DS is working towards it.

Here are some signs of needing to transition:
1. Not taking as much at a feed (baby not as hungry at 3 hours)
2. Erratic Night Wakings
3. They are extending their awake times
4. Starts taking 45 minute naps

A window opens up during the babies 4 month, that means they can stay awake longer ('A' time) and go longer between feeds. Keep a diary of when they eat and how much, how much activity they have and how long they sleep for.

If they don't eat very much on the 3 hour mark and take shorter naps this is the time to transition.

The fourth month window sometime coincides with a growth spurt, but unlike earlier growth spurts this one not only involves giving more food during the day but also extending the 'A' time between feeds. If you don't adjust his/her routine then this is the month when sleep problems start appearing.

Most four month old babies can stay awake for up to two hours during his fourth month, but if your baby can only stay awake for 1hr 30mins to 1hr 45mins, then you will have to transition him/her to a 3.5hr EASY, until he/she can stay awake for closer to 2hrs.

If you are on a 3.5hr EASY then 'E' will be 7, 10.30, 2, 5.30 and then top up at 7.

Then you can transition baby's onto a 4hr EASY.

Below is a guide in three day increments on how to transition from a 3hr EASY to a 4hr EASY

Days 1-3 you just observe and awake time is 1.5 hours and feed every 3hrs.

Days 4-7 You only keep them awake an extra 15mins in the the first morning slot so we would keep them up 1.75hours BUT JUST FOR THE MORNING SLOT. all other awake times are the same at 1.5hours.

Days 8-11 You keep them awake another 15mins in the first morning slot so we would keep them up2hrs BUT JUST FOR THE MORNING SLOT. all other awake times are 1.5 hours.

Days 12-16 Obviously by now you cant add anymore awake time to the morning slot as we have alreay hopefully acheived the 2hr awake time and the morning feed should now be 4hr. So now we work on adjusting the afternoon awake time .

If you are on 4hr E.A.S.Y your 'E' times will be 7, 11, 3, 7.

BoBoG · « **Reply #17 on:** June 14, 2006, 15:57:17 pm »

Our son is certaintly showing signs of 3 and 4 below and doesn't show signs of being hungry at 3 hours. In fact, regarding the 45-minute nap problem we started having problems with this about 4 weeks ago .... and come to think of it - there were days when even back then he could stay up for an hour and a half to almost 2 hours!!

Maybe we should have started the transition weeks ago! $:-\$

Well it's all starting to come together for me / him now... his naps are getting longer - even if they're interrupted after the 30-40 minute mark (his morning nap for instance was 30 minutes - and then after another 'phantom cry' he settled himself after only 2 minutes and slept for an additional 1 hour and 15 minutes!!) - and he is definitely showing signs of development!! His second A of today was only 1 hour and 30 minutes and he seemed to settle to sleep without any crying (clearly not overtired or overstimulated, as he may have been yesterday with 2 hours of A, twice in the afternoon). So I'll take your advice and that of the BW and use the 3.5 hour EASY for now.

Now our son has been waking before 7 a.m. (around 5:30-6:00'ish)... and I'm able to hold of going in to get him for a bit so that I've been starting our first feed of the day at 6:30 a.m. Do you have any suggestions on how I can push his wake up time by just a bit? Even if he's up at 6:30 he can talk to himself for a bit and then I can start to feed by 7. Does this have any other effects on the routine? I give him a final feed/top up at 7 or the latest 7:30 - and he's usually in bed and sleeping by 8 or just after. We'd like to keep this time if possible, but I'm worried if it's pushing things a little late , especially if his day starts at 6 a.m. Yesterday I fed him at 6:00 p.m. (part of the routine feed time) and again at 7:30 p.m. just before putting him down for the night.... this also ensures that he still gets his 5 feeds of the day (which he's been used to for sooo long) and that he's gotten enough calories in for the day to sustain him for the night. Do you have any thoughts on this and whether we should start putting him down earlier, even if 1/2 hour earlier?? Will he then wake earlier in the morning? Other than having a different start time and subsequent feed times is there anything that doesn't/can't add up with the first feed of the day starting at 6:30 a.m.?? $:-\$

corrina01 · « **Reply #18 on:** June 14, 2006, 18:32:13 pm »

You should be putting in down either 30-45 mins earlier. He should not wake any earlier, babies go into a much deeper sleeper slowly than quickly if they are put to bed to exhausted.

Quote (selected)

Other than having a different start time and subsequent feed times is there anything that doesn't/can't add up with the first feed of the day starting at 6:30 a.m.??

Nothing at all, if you want to start the day at 6.30am you can. I started the day at 7am for 6 months, now I am back at work I start the day at 6.30am. It suits me and DD alot better.

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Author Topic: a little confused now.. (Read 2827 times)