Author Topic: Hello, new and needing help (Read 3386 times)

birdie3775 · « **on:** June 17, 2006, 21:53:24 pm »

Hello everyone!

I have a little girl who is 4 1/2 months old and sleeps terribly. She wakes up every 40 min during the night and sometimes even every 20 min. This has left both my hubby and I completely exhausted. I have no idea how to change her sleep habbits and have read many posts, so far nothing has worked. Her schedule during the day is generally the same... waking up at 8am up for an hour sleeps 2hours up for 2 hours sleeps a hour then a cat nap before bed which is around 8pm for her. I try to only feed her after her wakings. She often wakes up CRYING and I have no idea why. She's not hot, not cold, and just ate 20 min prior. We have started her on oatmeal but no prevail. I tried letting her CIO, but she just screamed for 20min never letting up. I am desperate and willing to try anything. Please let me know any suggestions you have! Thank you!

Colin Macs Mom · « **Reply #1 on:** June 17, 2006, 23:48:49 pm »

Hi birdie, I'm so sorry that things are so rough right now!! Hang in there!

I would definitely urge you to stop the oatmeal, unless DD's doc gave you the go ahead to start solids. At 4.5 it could very well be too soon for her, so she's not digesting it well and that can cause cramping, gas, and general upset. Plus, it's really a myth that solids will help a lo sleep better. There's not much in terms of calories, so it doesn't sustain them. It can actually make sleeping worse.

Also, it sounds to me like she is in a cycle of overtiredness. Can you post your entire daily routine, so I can get a better idea?

birdie3775 · « **Reply #2 on:** June 18, 2006, 16:40:28 pm »

Colin's Mom,

I hadn't planned on starting her on solids til 6 months, but the doc said to give it a try. She actually wanted me to give her solids 3 times a day already... but I thought that was a bit much.

Her schedule is:

8:00 am wake up
8:30 am feed
9:45 am nap
10:30 am wake
11:00 am feed -- and play time
12:00 pm nap
2:00 pm wake
2:30 pm feed -- and play time
4:30 pm nap
5:30 wake and feed
6:30 pm cat nap
7:00 pm wake and play time
7:50 pm dinner (which is now oatmeal for her)
8:00 pm night time sleep

Colin Macs Mom · « **Reply #3 on:** June 18, 2006, 17:25:55 pm »

I do think that your routine needs a bit of tweaking to prevent overtiredness. I would go for something like this -

8:00 wake
8:30 feed and oatmeal
9:30 nap
11/11:30 wake
12:00 feed
1:00 nap
3:00 wake
3:30 feed
5:00 nap
6:00 wake
7:00 feed
8:00 bedtime

You should definitely feed the oatmeal either and breakfast or lunch. Doing it for dinner could be a big part of the problem if it's causing gas or upset. If you do it earlier in the day it will give her time to get it out of her system.

ambersmum · « **Reply #4 on:** June 18, 2006, 18:50:02 pm »

wow, you're having a tough time! hugs to you!

just a thought, are you breasfeeding? If you are and you are so tired it is possible you've not got enough milk to fill her up at night. I'm not saying stop bf but possibly talk to healthcare prof about this possibility.

I would advise solids for breakfast or lunch not tea. Also, try 'tanking up' in the evening. I used to feed dd at 3pm, 5pm,6pm and 7pm to get as much milk as possible in before a 7:15 bedtime.

What do you do when she wakes in the night?
HTH
hope to hear from you soon
juliet

birdie3775 · « **Reply #5 on:** June 18, 2006, 22:41:25 pm »

Thank you so much for the suggestion Colin! I do think she is overtired. I've been taking extra notice to her naps today and yesterday and I think if she wakes crying she's still tired. Like today she got a good 2 1/2 hour nap and woke up happy.

Ambersmum - I do bf'd, but she is mainly getting expressed milk (she is teething and bites down and/or pulls away... it really hurts). So I get to see how much she is eating. However, she tends to want a little ALL day. So I'm also trying to get her eating a full bottle instead of a little bit here and there. When she wakes in the night I feed her usually. Last night she got up at 11pm 2 am 3am 3:30 4 4:30 5 ... etc. So she's actually starting to sleep better from 8 til 2, but the early morning hours are terrible.

Any suggestions why this is? Maybe if I can figure out the early morning problem I can get her to sleep better all around. I had no idea it was better to give her oatmeal earlier in the day! I gave her oatmeal for lunch today... I'll skip dinner. Thank you! I will also try to cluster feed her before bed. After you mentioned that it dawned on me that when she was first born she used to cluster feed and slept better.

Colin Macs Mom · « **Reply #6 on:** June 18, 2006, 22:48:26 pm »

Yeah, if she wakes crying that's definitely a sign that she's still tired. The teething might also be playing a role too so you might need some patience for that, but it does sounds like the primary thing is overtiredness. Let me know how the clusterfeeding goes!

ambersmum · « **Reply #7 on:** June 19, 2006, 11:44:09 am »

I was thinking about your situation and 2 things occured to me, one was that if you get the daytime naps sorted that may sort out overtiredness and therefore help with nighttime sleep. I used to do sh/pat to get dd to go back to sleep if she woke too early from her naps and was still sleepy. It was hard work, but worth it in the end!

The other thought was, do you feed her back to sleep when she wakes in the early hours? If you feed her a 3 and she wakes at 3:30 would something else get her off to sleep again if she's not really hungry?

Glad she slept well in the early evening, hope things improve soon.

birdie3775 · « **Reply #8 on:** June 19, 2006, 18:35:33 pm »

We tried to cluster feed her yesterday evening and she didn't want to. I am going to try again tonight though.

Ambersmum - During the day when she wakes I give her a bottle to help her back to sleep (I too used to hop in bed and nurse her back to sleep). When she wakes in the early morning I also feed her to sleep... is that a bad thing? I tried the sh/pat, but it seems that it always wakes her up more.

Colin Macs Mom · « **Reply #9 on:** June 19, 2006, 21:48:21 pm »

Definitely do NOT feed her to sleep. She will associate food with sleep, and you don't want to deal with that, believe me. She won't learn to sleep independently if she is dependent on a prop like food to get to sleep.

birdie3775 · « **Reply #10 on:** June 19, 2006, 22:00:27 pm »

Colins,

Well see, she's weird. When I first put her down at night she falls asleep fine on her own. However, during the days she has a really hard time going to sleep on her own. In fact, only about 1 nap a day she goes to sleep on her own. Though I feed her to sleep at night I always wake her to burp her so she's put down and falls a sleep on her own. Just during the day is tough for her. I tried letting her cry it out, but most the time it doesn't work.

I didn't give her oatmeal at dinner yesterday and I think she did better! She was in bed at 9 (we had dinner with family and got hom late $:-\$ ) woke up at 12am 3 am 5 am and 6 am... she was up until 7, but I just let her stay in her crib and she fell asleep completely by herself by 6:45 then slept til 8. I will definitely keep giving oatmeal for breakfast or lunch rather than dinner. I'm so glad you ladies mentioned that to me! I hope she'll also cluster feed too. I feel like we are making process!

Colin Macs Mom · « **Reply #11 on:** June 19, 2006, 23:12:48 pm »

Quote from: birdie3775 on June 19, 2006, 22:00:27 pm

Well see, she's weird.

LOL, aren't they all?!?!

Quote from: birdie3775 on June 19, 2006, 22:00:27 pm

When I first put her down at night she falls asleep fine on her own. However, during the days she has a really hard time going to sleep on her own. In fact, only about 1 nap a day she goes to sleep on her own. Though I feed her to sleep at night I always wake her to burp her so she's put down and falls a sleep on her own. Just during the day is tough for her. I tried letting her cry it out, but most the time it doesn't work.

My DS was the same way. He would sleep in his crib in his own room just fine at night, but during the day he would have nothing to do with it and would NOT sleep unless he was being held - meaning he was not going to nap independently if his life depended on it. I never did figure that out. Being spirited, he also really hates change and needs quite a long time to get used to anything new.

So what we did was over the course of about 2.5 months (ridiculous amount of time I know) was teach him to sleep on the couch in the living room (one of us was right there of course) and then moved him to his crib for naps. It was the strangest thing, one day I was trying to get him to nap on the couch and he was just screaming his head off, really angry. I was confused and frustrated, and getting mad at him so I put him in his crib for a moment so I could calm myself, and when I came back in he was asleep! And he's slept there ever since. I guess he was trying to tell me that's where he wanted to be.

Perhaps it would help you to try something similar for the naps? It sounds like she is capable of independent sleep, but has a hard time with naps like my DS did.

I must really encourage you though to leave the crying it out by the wayside. With BW we strongly believe that CIO breaks the trust between a lo and the parent. When they cry they need you! Depending on how often and how recently you did that, you might be experiencing a loss of trust with your lo, and if so that will need to be regained before the independent sleep improves. She needs to know that you will be there when she needs you.

Quote from: birdie3775 on June 19, 2006, 22:00:27 pm

I didn't give her oatmeal at dinner yesterday and I think she did better! She was in bed at 9 (we had dinner with family and got hom late $:-\$ ) woke up at 12am 3 am 5 am and 6 am... she was up until 7, but I just let her stay in her crib and she fell asleep completely by herself by 6:45 then slept til 8. I will definitely keep giving oatmeal for breakfast or lunch rather than dinner. I'm so glad you ladies mentioned that to me! I hope she'll also cluster feed too. I feel like we are making process!

Glad to hear that!! Sounds like perhaps the oatmeal was causing some sort of upset after all.

ambersmum · « **Reply #12 on:** June 20, 2006, 08:20:05 am »

Gald you feel there's some progress! You will make progress if you keep going with BW techniques. It is good that although she falls asleep on bedtime bottle you put her down awake. Going into cot awake is very important for learning independent sleep.

CIO is not a good method (although I've done it once in utter despair, so I'm not judging you at all). even if you are just in the room, with your hand on her tummy/back or wherever she knows you are there and mummy is helping her to sleep. The hardest part is creeping out of the room when she does get off to sleep. My advice on that is to wait until she is REALLY asleep, even if it means staying an extra 5 mins. If sh/pat is too stimulating ( with our dd she got to an age where is was too much, can't remember when that was) try modifying it with just sitting by the bed, with you hand on her instead of patting and try a quieter 'sh' or non at all.

Be encouraged, lots of us have been there and come out the other side with fantastic independent sleepers!

ambersmum · « **Reply #13 on:** June 20, 2006, 08:21:58 am »

just thought, about daytime naps is noise or light a problem? We use black outs at the window and when dd went thruogh a phase of being noise sensitive we used some sort of white noise to help.

birdie3775 · « **Reply #14 on:** June 20, 2006, 14:51:50 pm »

Last night was a set back

she woke up every hour on the dot again. No idea why. I don't like CIO, but unfortuantely with my DD she will NOT sleep in our bed, arms, living room, etc. She has to have her crib. I did sit there with her quite a few times and found that only prolongs her crying. If I leave the room she's asleep with in 2 min. DH and I tried everything else possible and this child stayed up 16 hours a couple of times when she was less than 2 months old.

Ambersmum - I started thinking that maybe light was a problem. However, the last two mornings she's fallen asleep in her crib even with the sun up. As for noise, it doesn't seem to make a difference. I tried complete silence and white noise. Either way her sleep is the same.

I tried to cluster feed her again last night and she wants nothing to do with it! I swear she eats a lot less in the evenings. Today I'm taking notice to how many ounces she's getting during the day. She eats the most in the mornings.

Colin Macs Mom · « **Reply #15 on:** June 20, 2006, 15:55:52 pm »

Hmmmm. You certainly do have an interesting lo! Do you know what personality type she is? Do you think that she is one of those los that needs less sleep or more sleep than the norm?

birdie3775 · « **Reply #16 on:** June 20, 2006, 19:08:45 pm »

She is very interesting! And keeps you on your feet! She is very particular about everything... the way she's held, the way she sleep, her food (you have a one second warning that she is hungry before she throws a fit) etc. Apparetnly DH was the very same way as a baby. She's my little angel though

I have no idea if she needs more or less than the norm. Right now it seems like she gets just the same as most babies her age.

I'm trying everything to get her to sleep better. I do think she is teething also, so that can be adding to our problem. She hasn't slept well since she was 1 month old

Colin Macs Mom · « **Reply #17 on:** June 20, 2006, 20:05:09 pm »

Yeah, my DS used to never give a sign that he was hungry until it was too late - he'd be fine, playing along or whatever, and then all of a sudden he'd be screaming his head off, inconsolable. We were obsessive clock watchers for a while there. If she's teething then that can definitely add to the mix - so keep at it for a few days and let me know if things work out.

ambersmum · « **Reply #18 on:** June 20, 2006, 20:19:56 pm »

Sorry you had a bad night, you must be SO tired!
It is good she likes to sleep in her crib! Falling asleep in your bed/arms is not a habit to encourage if your aim is independent sleep.

She falls asleep quicker if you're not there? Really in 2 mins? I don't think that is CIO. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong but I believe Tracy would say don't rush in, wait for a min to see if she really needs you or if she can settle on her own. CIO is leaving her to scream for a good while. My dd has just woken up at 9pm, for no reason I can think of, I've just come upstairs to listen (while I type to you) and she has got back off to sleep with no intervention, but she has been noisy for a few mins. I really don't believe that was CIO, just giving her a chance to settle herself. If she was escalating, or cried for a while, I'd go in, of course. Is your dd coming into her light sleep and crying to get herself off again?

Sorry the cluster feeding is not useful to you. I'd be interested in how much she takes over the course of a day. If she is overtired she'll not feed well in the evenings, just a thought.

hope some of this is useful, if not at least you know someone is thinking of you!!!

birdie3775 · « **Reply #19 on:** June 21, 2006, 03:16:49 am »

Quote from: ambersmum on June 20, 2006, 20:19:56 pm

hope some of this is useful, if not at least you know someone is thinking of you!!!

Thank you! The longest it takes for her to get to sleep when I first put her down is 5 min. So I guess that isn't CIO. We've only let her truely CIO once because the doctor said to see if she would put herself back to sleep (this is for the night wakings). It didn't do anything and I will not do that again. She has been in bed for a little while, so we'll see how tonight goes. She did seem to eat more before bed this time... I hope that helps!

ambersmum · « **Reply #20 on:** June 21, 2006, 13:19:22 pm »

hope last night was better! Are you in the uk, or US or somewhere else? Just wondered what the time difference was and when your night is in relation to mine!

birdie3775 · « **Reply #21 on:** June 22, 2006, 11:49:55 am »

I am in the US, mountain time.

Well, DH and I gave her formula instead of EBM last night. She only got up twice! That's a big difference from 6. Maybe formula holds her over longer? I know it doesn't digest as easily as breastmilk, but at this point DH and I are losing our sanity so it's a must.

We are going camping so I'll continue with the formula at night and hopefully it works out. I'll let you all know when I get back. Thanks so much for all the help!

Colin Macs Mom · « **Reply #22 on:** June 22, 2006, 15:48:10 pm »

to you Birdie, let us know how the camping goes! You're brave to attempt it with a lo!

ambersmum · « **Reply #23 on:** June 24, 2006, 10:56:10 am »

how was camping? The formular at night.... some poeple say it works a treat, others reckon it is no different! Hope it works for you.

birdie3775 · « **Reply #24 on:** June 29, 2006, 14:27:21 pm »

Camping went great, though it really messed with Lana's schedule. Her napping is generally short and often again. I'm kinda upset about that because it took a lot of hard work to get her on a schedule.. so here I go again!

Formula does seem to be helping at night. She still wakes often in the mornings but has extended to every 2 hours... generally. I really think had we not messed with her schedule things would definitely be on the up right now. She was even starting to put herself to bed in the mornings after waking.

I appreciate all the help that you ladies have given me. Thank you so much!

ambersmum · « **Reply #25 on:** June 29, 2006, 16:30:05 pm »

getting back on track should be easier second time round, holidays always mess up the shedule a bit, even with older ones!

you'll get there soon! I would concentrate your efforts on the naps for a bit, rather than try to sort everything out at once.

You sound really positive! THe trip must have done you good.

Post again anytime you need some support.

Colin Macs Mom · « **Reply #26 on:** June 29, 2006, 18:18:02 pm »

Great to hear!

birdie3775 · « **Reply #27 on:** June 30, 2006, 19:14:50 pm »

Thank you both!

Well she got up A LOT last night. DH took her many times... I lost count

I think it's because her daytime naps are so messed up now. She's napping only for 40 min about 3 times a day. I have no idea how to help her back to sleep because what I used to do was nurse her back to sleep (that's when she'd sleep in my bed). And since I can't get in her crib with her I'm at a loss

We were getting so close!!

Colin Macs Mom · « **Reply #28 on:** June 30, 2006, 20:06:16 pm »

40 min 3xday??

That is definitely where you need to start - good daytime sleep = good nighttime sleep. I'm sorry, I don't remember how old your DD is, but instead of reverting to nursing to sleep, I think it's time to start pat/sshhhh or pu/pd.

ambersmum · « **Reply #29 on:** July 03, 2006, 16:01:01 pm »

I agree with Colin's mum! sorry no time to write more. You will get there in the end!

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Author Topic: Hello, new and needing help (Read 3386 times)