common reasons for frequent waking in the am?

[seaflower]

What are the common reasons for frequent waking in the early hours (pass 12am) as opposite to all night waking or early night wakings (which is causes by overtiredness, right)?

I am more interested in general, but I have the specific DD's routine here, if somebody can also comment on that.
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=62315.0 (copied below)

Wake up 5 - 5:30am
breastfeed 6am (she usually moans until then and seems tired but can't get her to sleep)
solids 8-8:30am
nap 9:30-10am for 45 mins, sometimes 1.5 hour.

solids 12:30pm
nap 1:30-2pm for usually an hour (usually a bf beforehand)
solids 4pm (fruit)

dinner 6pm
bath 6:20pm
breastfeed and bed 6:30pm.

She is asleep by 6:45-7pm. Stays asleep until around 12am and then wakes up in the small hours regularily every hour or so. If I am in the room with her and catch her while she is sturring, and say shhhhhh she settles quick enough, if I leave her for few minutes she starts to cry and takes ages to settle her afterwards. Don't think it is discomfort at this stage, as it is repeating every night.

The improvement is that she sleeps 7pm-12am, which I am delighted with, but we are still exhausted from all the waking afterwards.

We have blackout curtains, the temperature is ok, she is like this regardless of teething or not. She used to brestfeed all night long few weeks ago, now goes witout food 6pm-6am, could it be that? She is eating LOADS during the day.

[teezee]

bump!

[andibig]

one reason i've heard is that some LOs go straight into a deep sleep at bedtime (instead of later into their sleep) and because of that come into their light sleep too early.

[seaflower]

one reason i've heard is that some LOs go straight into a deep sleep at bedtime (instead of later into their sleep) and because of that come into their light sleep too early.

Hm, that sounds interesting. Any idea how to swap the deep and light sleep?

[andibig]

hate to say it. but its usually when LO are v tired by the time they reach b/time.so when they go to sleep its normally straight into a deep sleep. (when it should be falling into a light sleep going into a deep sleep later on in the night and then coming into a light sleep in the morning) (hope that makes sense).
i think maybe a longer pm nap may help so that she is tired but not o/tired KWIM.
but i'm just guessing!!!!

[seaflower]

She is having her pm nap around 2-3 recently, in bed 6:30-6:40 and still waking. Will wait for another week to see if this is defenitelly not working and will try changing the naps a bit. She completelly refuses to nap longer in the pm, on the other hand regularily sleeps 1-1.5 hours in the am (and sometimes still wakes up tired and upset?!)

[andibig]

i know DD was very much like this at that age (early rising not the night wakings). i think the nap times are ok but maybe the am nap needs to be shorter so that the pm nap could be extended??? difficult though because of the night wakings.
i think also that it might be taking her a while to adjust to no b/f at night (which is brilliant btw) and is still learning how to resettle when she wakes.
will put my thinking cap for this one

[Zoey]

Does she use a prop to get to sleep in the beginning?  Paci, rocking, breast?  Also, is she about to do something developmental, standing, walking this sorta thing?

The sleep that happens in the first part of the evening say 7p-12a is very deep. From 12a-6a the sleep is lighter. When babies go through the sleep cycles every 45 mins, they wake slightly and start the next sleep cycle (we all wake slightly when we transition - adults do it every 90mins instead of 45min).  So, when the transitions happen in the first part of sleep (7p-12a) the waking is so slight, because the sleep was deep they can get back to sleep ok.  But, when the transitions happen in the second part of sleep (12a-6a) the waking is more because the sleep was lighter, causing them to wake more fully - and if there is a prop used, they won't be able to get back to sleep without it... and let you know they are awake LOL.   Does that make any sense?
 
If there isn't a prop then NM - but I saw she BFs at 630p, then is asleep by 645p - could your breast be a prop?

Hugs,
Zoey

[andibig]

opps
sorry seaflower may have given you wrong advice judging by Zoeys reply. hopefully she can be more help

[Kimberly®]

1 thing I always ask for older babies (9+months) is how much daytime sleep does your LO get.

Reason; While naps are importent and nightsleep feeds off of daytime sleep, there comes a point in a LO's infantcy when they need to have less daytime sleep. If for example your 3 month old is having 4-6 hours of daytime sleep then thats great and it should be encouraged, however, if that baby is 10 months lets say, 4-6 hours daytime sleep will be to much and your LO will start to wake early in the am. Its a matter of balence.
The first thing I would rule out is overtiredness. If you know that your LO is not overtired, then its time to look at the amount of daytime sleep. At 11 months your LO should be having about 3 hours. So 2 naps of 1.5, or for some its even just one nap of 2-3 hours (like my DD)

[Zoey]

*Giggle*  Sashas mummy, I don't think there is right and wrong - only suggestions and ideas!     I just through my idea out there to try and help as well.  This parenting stuff is like detective work!   

Good Luck!
Zoey

[seaflower]

I think you could be right! I've been thinking the same thing last few days as we do use lots of "interventions" to get her to sleep - music, rubbing her back, sometimes gentle talk or shhh. She has gotten into the habit of getting up in her cot and crying when she wakes up, and she doesn't know how to lie down. If I place her down she is ok, but for some reason it doesn't occur to her she can do it herself

I must visit the props boards and get some tips. She has never gone to sleep on her own. We are off on holidays in 2 weeks so hopefully won't undo the litle progress we've made!

Naps are kind of Ok, twice last week she did two naps 1.5 hours each! Most time is 1.5 hours am and 1 hour pm, and I CAN'T shift them around, she just can't settle in the pm. I am pretty sure she is not overtired. So will try and work on all props, I was going to do it anyway. Twice during the night I caught her while she was lifting her head to get up and just told her to go back to sleep and she lied back down on her own

[seaflower]

I posted a question on the props boards about stopping shush/pat as a prop, this is the link if somebody has advice how to approach it.

https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=65717.0

[seaflower]

I can't really find the answer to this in the book - do you do PU/PD for 1 year old, or do you do walk in-walk out? If she gets up in her cot but is happy what do you do - place hwe down again or ignore her and wait for her to cry? Thanks.

[Zoey]

8 MONTHS TO A YEAR - At this age you really don’t do any pick up as babies 8 months and up tend to soothe faster in the crib.

·   You wait for them to stand up or pull up and then you place them back down so they are looking away from you and not at your face.
·   If you feel they are truly frantic and need more you can pick them up for a moment but you put them straight back down.
·   At this age it’s important to use your voice even more.  Your baby will start to recognize what you are saying, eg. “I’m not  leaving you, you’re not alone, it’s nap time” etc.
·   At this age you may need to pair pu/pd with gradual leaving of the room.  First you stay in the room until asleep, then move a few feet from the crib, in a few days you move to the door, then out the door.

Here is the walk in/out post.  https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=65262.0   If you need help figuring out which to use, please post on the PUPD board and we can help you figure that out.

HtH,
Zoey

PS Can she get down when she stands up?  Practice this during A times, in the crib so she feels comfy do it alone.  My opinion.