14 month old staying up late

[twins_2005]

Hi everyone,

I have 14 month old twins, and one of them (my son) has been going through some interesting sleep issues in the past month or so. About every 1 1/2 weeks, he stays up really late for a few days in a row - until 8:30 or 9 pm. (He usually goes to sleep for the night around 6 - 6:30 pm.) He just hangs out in his crib -  babbling and rocking. He doesn't complain and doesn't act excited (most of the time). Whenever I go in to check up on him, he seems fine.

He started staying up late when he started walking around a lot. I thought it was the excitement of walking that was keeping him awake, but I would think he'd be over the excitement by now.

He seems REALLY sleepy and weepy during the days that he looses sleep. When he goes back to his normal routine, he seems much better rested.

Does this indicate that I need to adjust his schedule a bit, or is it just a phase he’s going through? I'm reluctant about having my twins on 2 different sleep schedules. My 14 month old daughter loves her sleep, and is doing great on her schedule right now.

Here's their normal schedule:
* 9 am nap (lasts 1.5 hrs for my daughter; 50 mins for my son)
* 1 pm nap (lasts 1 hr for my daughter; 50 mins for my son)
* Sleep at 6 - 6:30pm; wake up at 6:30 am

(My son has always needed less sleep than my daughter, and has always taken shorter naps no matter what schedule I’ve had them on.)

Any suggestions or ideas?

Thanks!

[Florencia]

Hi!

By looking at your schedule, and given your son's age it looks to me that he might be overtired and that's why he's having trouble relaxing. He might giving you the signs that he's ready to switch to one nap (most short nappers switch early to one nap a day and they seem to sleep for longer periods then). But you also mention that he's doing this every other week, not in a regular basis. Maybe you can try putting him down for a nap 15 mins later than he's used to (specially for the second nap) and even if he sleeps for 50 mins then, he'll be less tired by bedtime. What's your wind down routine like? sometimes extending the bedtime winddown helps to get them drowsy easier.

They both are in the age for teething their molars, which can also play an important role on sleeping outbursts. Have you checked a sign of them? maybe with some pain releifers you might solve the puzzle.

I'm not sure that changing the schedule abruptly would be a solution for you guys because of her sister's sleeping, and i'm aware that if something aint' broken better not fix it.

You can also try some wi/wo to help him go to sleep during bedtime, but this will only work if he's crying for you. If he's happy playing quietly, then we have to think about something else to help him wind down and relax and go to sleep without getting overtired.

I'm not sure if i was of any help. there's another board of MULTIPLES, where you can also ask for help that is provided for moms with twins or more and you can get some good tips there too.

Let me know what you think about extending his awake time for the second nap and if you see that it's not helping, we can come up with something more.

Good luck and keep us posted!

[twins_2005]

Hi Florencia,

Thanks for your suggestions. I'm putting my son down 15 mins later today for the second nap. I'll see if that works after trying it for a few days in a row.

Also, here are answers to some of  your questions below:
- Yes, he is getting his molars in. I see 2 of them poking out, but since he doesn't cry in his crib, I'm not sure if he's in pain.
- My wind down routine for the evening goes like this... dinner, bath, reading books, place in crib to sleep. The whole routine from the bath to the placing in crib lasts about 45 mins... since I bathe one child at a time. I read to them for about 15 mins. I've done this since the kids were about 6 months old.

I think you might be right about him being overtired. Although he doesn't act wired or anything, I think he's having difficulty falling asleep. I had also tried pulling up his bedtime by 15 mins a couple of days ago, but he doesn't always grab the opportunity to go to sleep earlier. When he's REALLY tired after a few days of staying up late, he does finally go to bed by or before 6 pm.

Thanks again!

[Florencia]

no need to thank ok?

Sometimes teething pain is not expressed as clear upsetting or crying. Sometimes is more like difficulty to relax (which is the exact case for your ds). Some kiddos are just like that, though cookies that are not broken down easily (good thing for him in the future). Since he's not expressing his pain clearly it can get confusing, but i can assure you it's there. 2 molars at a time are like a real bad headache and his brain gets programmed to be "on guard", that's just how nature works, so we have to work on giving him the oportunity to relax or relearn how to relax.

That's why i think pain meds at the beginning of bedtime routine (if your ped ok's them) will get you somewhere. Also if possible, lenghten the time of the routine where he gets drowsy (maybe 5 extra mins of cuddling or an extra book) so he can get where he needs to drift off.

I'll be waiting to hear how the late nap went.  And to hear about your progress. Good luck!

[twins_2005]

Oh, I see. I didn't know that about teething. Well, so far, the shifting of the nap has not made a difference. But, a couple of days ago, I did give him some Tylenol in the evening just to see if it would help. That night he went to sleep around 6 pm and woke up refreshed in the morning. I didn't really make the connection until now, after reading your email. Maybe that's why he's weepy and cranky during the day too... Poor guy! I'll give it a try again, and see how it goes.

[twins_2005]

The situation seems to be getting worse. He's starting to skip his second nap. He's done this 2 days in a row... and he did it once last week. Before this, he had never really resisted his naps.

Yesterday, after skipping his second nap, he went to sleep by 6 pm (bedtime) and slept well throughout the night. Today, after skipping his second nap, he slept at 6 pm again, but woke up at 7 pm and stayed up in his crib until 9:15 pm. He didn't cry at all. He just played and rocked. I have been giving him pain meds, but it seems to me that they are probably not solving anything as far as his sleep goes.

Any ideas? Basically, he now has 6 - 7 + hours where he is awake... whereas before, he had a *maximum* (worst case) of 4.5 hours of wake time between sleep periods. Could he be changing his sleep pattern so abruptly?

Thanks for any suggestions!

[Nikki~Nathanamp;Danielle]

Just to jump in here...

I hate to say it, but it does seem based on your last post that he perhaps is ready for one nap. My dd was dropping her 2nd nap and we had the same issues as you, so I put her onto one nap and it was just what she needed. You do seem to be in a bit of a spot though with having two schedules, but I guess no different to when my dd was a baby on 2 naps and ds was still napping kwim?  What I did to get around the two different nap times was to put dd who was still on 2 naps down for her 9am nap as usual but I would wake her by 10am so I knew she'd be tired again by 12.30pm when ds would go down for his nap. So perhaps you could keep your ds up until 12.30pm if you think he could handle it and put him down then and your dd the same time or slightly after if you think she may not be quite ready for it yet - you will hopefully have at least 1hr overlap where they are both napping. One thing you may notice when you switch to one nap is to expect the one nap to instantly be longer, but I have found that it can take a week or two until the nap consistently becomes one long nap as their body needs to change to the new routine.

HTH

[twins_2005]

Thanks, Nikki. I hate to admit it, but I think you might be right. I've been reading some of the other posts on this board, and it seems my ds might be ready for 1 nap. I really like your suggestion about how to deal with the 2 different schedules too. I'll give it a try. Fingers crossed!

[twins_2005]

Hi all,

I still haven't tried the one nap thing with my son. I'm concerned about him being even more overtired once I try the transition. I'm afraid that he might drop to one nap and STILL got to sleep really late... hence, losing more sleep. I just can't figure out why he's staying up so late all of a sudden! He's done this EVERY night now for the past week. His new self-proclaimed bedtime seems to be 9 pm! A huge difference from 6 pm!

What have your experiences been with this sort of thing? Would he go back to an earlier bedtime if I eliminate one nap? I don't want him to be on one nap if he's staying up so late.

He's started to go to bed about 6 -7 hours after his 2nd nap. If he's missed his 2nd nap, then it's about 8 - 9 hours of awake time!  Sounds like a lot for a 14 month old, no?

I hope he goes back to sleeping 13.5 - 14 hours a day... instead of 10ish!

Some reassurances would be great. Thanks again.

[imsmum]

When dd transitioned to one nap she was so ready to be go to sleep by around 6 :30.  I think you only have to worry about a late bedtime if you try to put him to bed too late and he is overtired. 

Baby Whisperer Solves All Your Problems sets out a method of gradually shifting to one nap if you are worried about making the change all at once which involves slowing pushing the am nap back until it starts to lengthen.  Until then you continue to offer 2.  You may want to check that out.  Good Luck!     

[Florencia]

I think the more you wait to do the transition, the more overtired he'll be and the harder the transition will be. I haven't seen any problems around here with late bedtime when transition to one nap, the most common problem is that the nap is short and it's solved with an early bedtime.

I'm not saying it is a smooth transition and it will magically work, but since you're trying so hard with the 2nd nap with almost no results, i think it might be worth a shot to the one nap a day approach. Remember we'll be here for you in case things don't turn out as well and quick as expected. Good luck!

[twins_2005]

Thanks, imsmum and Florencia! I did order that book on-line about a week or so ago, and it should be here any day now. I'm eagerly awaiting its arrival.

[Harrisonsmummy]

Your other option is to transition both at once! Although it is hard to keep them awake until lunchtime, it is easier than making them sleep early. Many children transition earlier than they would be naturally ready if they are in a nursery, their bodies do adjust to a different  schedule and your dd will probably move to one nap in the next month or so......

Harrison was on two naps a day until January, but due to AP I had to walk him for his 2nd nap of the day. One day I walked around and around and he would not sleep! That was the last time he had two naps, it took a couple of weeks for him to adjust and early bedtimes but otherwise fairly smooth sailing.

Just a thought......

[twins_2005]

Yes, I was contemplating that as well - transitioning my dd along with my ds. I think transitioning my ds will be easier than transitioning my dd. I'll have to see how she handles it. If she throws fits - which she does when she's tired (oh boy!!) -  I'll keep her on 2 naps a while longer.

[twins_2005]

Hi,

I finally have plunged into the 2 - 1 nap transition for my twins. I figured that I'd give it a shot with my daughter too. Surprisingly, my daughter is handling it very well. (Fingers crossed!) She's still sleeping 14 - 14.5 hrs a day; her sleep is just reorganized. My son was doing well for 3 days, and is experiencing some bumps along the way now.

I'm basically pushing out the morning nap by 15 - 30 mins. It used to occur at 9 am, and I've pushed it out to about 10 am now. I'll push it out to 10:30 tomorrow.

The thing is... my kids don't take the afternoon nap now... even though I do still offer it. My daughter sleeps ~ 2 hrs during her 10 am nap, so I don't feel so bad. But my son sleeps only an hour, and is up around 11 am. I put them down for bed around 5 pm.

My daughter does fine and sleep right away. My son did do just fine and slept right away for the first 3 days of the transitioning process. However, last night, he woke up from his sleep at around 6:30 pm and stayed up until 8:15 pm. I was worried that he was going back to his 9 pm bedtime again. Today, I set him down around 5:15 pm, and he took a long time to fall asleep. He finally slept around 6:50 pm. He did take a catnap today (from which I woke him up) -- from ~ 2:55 - 3:05 pm.

Do you think he's overtired? I thought a bedtime of 5 pm sounded reasonable. They usually wake up around 6/6:30 am.

What amount of time should they be awake between their sleep? I'll be pushing out the morning nap even more tomorrow, so the time he's up between his nap and his bedtime will be less than it is now. I've been reading the messages on this website and have even read the sample toddler schedules... but have found that the range can be anywhere between 4.5 - 6.5 hours. Is there a recommended A time for babies this age? Or is it something that could vary from baby to baby?

Thanks so much again!

[Harrisonsmummy]

I think it varies from lo to lo! Some can handle long am wakes until nap. H can make it (with help) from 5am to 12.30pm and still get a nap in. But if he goes to bed later than 5hrs after theend of nap we have struggles to sleep and eventually night-wakings.

Some on the other hand, if they are too tired in the morning won't nap, but can take a much longer afternoon, although they do seem to be in the minority. I think it is because the nap recharges them so they aren't so tired at bedtime and don't get that meltdown going on.

It is "just" a question of finding what works best for you! (or them I should say!)

[imsmum]

I agree 100% with Justine.  I do think that the A time after nap is particularly short when they first go to one nap.  I know a lot of the sleep experts recommend no longer than4.5 hours so your ds is probably overtired if he's got 7 hours of a time after his nap regardless of his bedtime being only 11 to 12 hours after the morning wakeup.  I'd either keep offering him the cat nap as you push the am nap back or just take the plunge and push his nap back to 12.

[twins_2005]

Hi,

I really don't know what I'm doing wrong.   I've pushed out the mid-day nap to the middle of the day (the kids fall asleep between 11:30 and 12), and I make sure the bedtime is around 4.5 hours after them waking up. My son sleeps anywhere between 30 mins - 1 hr (MAX) for his nap. My daughter sleeps about 1.5 hours. She sleeps well at night though (around 12.5 hrs)... but still, she's getting less sleep now than she used to with 2 naps. That's another issue though... and I'm not really concerned about that since it doesn't seem to be a big issue right now.

Now, this is what really concerns me... I put my son in around 4:30 - 5 pm for his bedtime. Some days, he falls asleep and stays asleep until 6 - 6:30 am. Some days, he treats his bedtime like a NAP... and sleeps from 5:30 pm - 6:30 pm, and stays up in his crib until 8:30 - 9 pm! Other days, he doesn't go to sleep at all until 8:30 pm or so. I'm so confused because he ACTS tired. I was going to put him in bed around 5:30 pm yesterday (because I want to try to move closer to their original bedtime), and he was so cranky and weepy, and kept making the baby sign for "sleep"... and so, I put him in bed only 4 hours after being awake... and he still stayed up... and went to sleep about 8 hours after being awake.

I really don't know what I'm doing wrong. Here's his day:

wake up 6 - 6:30
nap 11:30 - 12 (lasts 30 mins - 1 hour)
bedtime 5 (but he doesn't actually sleep until a much later time)

I keep wondering if I should go back to 2 naps... ? But that system was broken too. 

Also, I was wondering -- how long should I keep offering my kids the earlier bedtime? Like I said, their nap is not long... and so, I've stuck to the earlier bedtime. So, do I stick to this until they lengthen their naptime? Is there anyway to encourage a longer naptime?

Thanks again!!

[Florencia]

I would say that this is all part of 2-1 nap transition. My guess is that since your dd seems to be an angel sleeper, she'll adjust to a longer nap as time goes by and you'll be able to go for a later bedtime then.

With your son, just keep things consistant and he should be able to understand it's bedtime for good and also adjust to a longer nap that allows him to go down later for bedtime. Meantime is early bedtime for both while they adjust.

I don't think it would be helpful to go back to 2 naps for either of them. DD seems to be well rested and have the amount of sleep she needs given her age. DS seems to be a tough cookie and it might take him a good extra 2 weeks before he gets the dynamics straight. Just keep up the good job, and i know it sounds like too much work but i guarantee you it will get better as you remain consistant.

Good luck! it sounds to me as you're dealing just fine with it.

[twins_2005]

Thanks for the encouragement, Florencia! The transition period is confusing and difficult, and it helps to hear that I should just keep at it. Also, thanks for the clarification on when to start the later bedtime. It makes sense!

[twins_2005]

Hi. It's me again. I’m confused once more. 

I really am planning to remain consistent with my son’s bedtime. The only thing that’s really throwing me off (now) is that he has been staying up until around 8 pm for the past 6 days. It’s confusing me because for the past 1.5 months, the time he decides to fall asleep has been different/inconsistent. But for the past 6 days, he’s been falling asleep consistently around 8ish pm and getting up around 6 am or so. He used to sleep from 6 pm - 6/6:30 am. I still place him in his crib around 5:30 pm – which is roughly 4.5 hours after he wakes up from his nap. He takes one nap for about 1 hour… sometimes 1.5 hours. Today, he slept 2 hours! Phew! So, on average, he’s been sleeping about 11.5 hours. He doesn’t seem inordinately tired anymore (like he used to when he first started to reduce the number of hours he sleeps). (Or maybe I'm just getting used to his new behavior...)

I had a couple of doctor visits for the babies this past week, and the doctors said that maybe he needs only that much amount of sleep. I know that could be true. It just seemed so drastic to me for him to SUDDENLY reduce the amount he sleeps from 14 hrs to 11.5 hours. One day - 1.5 months ago - he started sleeping a LOT less. He’s been going back to 14 hours every now and then.

Like I said, I do want to keep at it, and keep his bedtime consistent, but I just can’t help questioning whether or not his new self-proclaimed bedtime is just 8 pm. What do you think? I'm afraid that if I make his bedtime 8 pm, he could get overtired. Also, I'm afraid that if I put him in at 7:30 - 8 pm, he might just stay up until 9 pm or so. 

Also, what is interesting is that he welcomes bedtime. He starts yawning around 4:30 pm. He even helps me put away the books after reading time, and he happily goes to his crib. He just hangs out for a really, really, really long time (like 2 hours) after he's been placed in there before finally going to sleep!

Thanks again so much for your support and encouragement through this very confusing time!! I really appreciate your help!

[imsmum]

Is nap time still at 11:30 or 12?  I found with my lo that even if the nap is early so she is tired at the usual 5 hours after nap wakeup she cannot go to sleep until it's been at least 13-14 hours after she wakes in the morning (unless she is feverish--then she'll go down early) so she actually does better with a later nap or else she is overtired at bedtime and will not sleep as long at night or if this happens a lot have the dreaded night wakings!  Like your little guy she is usually up at 6 but doesn't nap until 1 and then is asleep by 8 (but she is 2 so she probably doesn't need as much night sleep as your little guy)  So I would actually try to push the nap back a bit and keep up with an early bedtime (although maybe make it closer to 6 or 6:30) HTH

[twins_2005]

Thanks, imsmum, for the suggestion. The kids and I were sick for about 1 week, and so, I'm finally getting back to focusing on the nap and bedtime. For about a week or so, ds was sleeping wonderfully. His body needed that extra sleep to recover. Now that he's feeling better, he's back to his antics... confusing his mama, and sleeping at all sorts of odd hours. Ugh! (I was still working with a 11:30 am naptime.) Well, it seems that something is just not jiving with him as far as timing of nap/bedtime goes. I'll try what you suggested and see how it goes. I feel bad for my poor dd who has to go along with all this shuffling around of their schedule. LUCKILY... she doesn't complain much about it.

Thanks again!

[twins_2005]

Hi there! I'm getting really discouraged now.  I've been pushing our my kids' nap to 12 pm... but their nap always becomes shorter when I push it out in the day. Even earlier, I had tried to aim for a 12 or 12:30 pm nap, but it always seemed that they took a longer nap when it started around 11:30 am. What do you think? Do shorter naps occur initially when you try to push out the naptime a bit? My son, for example, has only slept 40 minutes today.... after sleeping not even 10 hours last night. So, that's a whopping total of 10.5 hours for the day.... down almost 3.5 hrs from what he used to sleep before all this began.

My son still seems sleepy and cranky during the day. His eyes are red and glassy... Is this normal? I didn't think so. He often comes to me and lies down on my lap and hangs out there for a few minutes. He never used to do this. He's so much more whiny. I think I'm getting really discouraged now. The advice I get from medical professionals is not very helpful. Some say to stick to the schedule and let him hang out in his crib if he's not complaining. Others say to change his bedtime to 8, and let him take a long nap during the day. Oh sure! If he only took a decent nap during the day! Others tell me that it's normal for children this age to take ONE 15 - 20 minute nap and not sleep too much during the night either. Well... maybe he's suddenly become one of these kids.   

Any suggestions? Maybe I just have to face things... I might just have a child who likes to sleep at a vastly different time every night... although I think that's crazy! Lately, the time he falls asleep has varied from 6:30 to 8:45... There is no pattern. Sometimes it's 6:30, sometimes it's 7, sometimes it's 7:40, sometimes 8:15, sometimes 8:45... you get the idea. I really don't know what to do for him. He's tired, but he doesn't sleep.

I'm sorry... I know I sound frustrated. I feel that he needs more sleep based on his behavior. But because he stays up even when sleep is offered to him, I'm beginning to think that he's becoming a wide-eyed lil' guy!

I'm so glad this website exists and there is a great group of people to support us through various things. Thanks so much! Any ideas are really appreciated!

[mom2william]

Hi Twins 2005,

I have been following your saga because I too have moved my DS to one nap and am having issues.  I don't know if you think your DS is having all the problems he is because of switching to one nap or not but I think that's why we're having problems.

I am so frustrated with our switch to one nap.  It has gone on for about 3 months but that may be due to my indecisiveness and his body just really going back and forth on the 2 nap 1 nap thing.  My DS is having bedtime issues, too.  I try to put him down early as he seems tired in the late afternoon.  I try putting him to bed sometimes as early as 6:00pm (based on how long he's napped and when he got up.  Usually around 5 hours from the time he got up from his nap)  But a lot of times, he won't go to sleep until 8:00pm!  Somedays he'll go down easily at 7:00pm or earlier.  It's a crapshoot, I tell you!  Last night he screamed and cried for 45 minutes while we tried getting him down.  He finally calmed down and went to sleep around 7:25pm. 

My son gets up around 6:30am-7:00am (He's started sleeping a bit later in the morning, yay!).  I've been trying for a nap around 11:00-11:30am, too.  He doesn't have 40min. naps like your little guy but he sometimes sleeps about an hour, hour and a half which I don't feel is that long but I'll take it.  But, since a lot of times he's up around 1:00pm from his nap I try to put him to bed early so he won't get overtired but he then won't go to sleep!

My suggestion would just try and be as consistent as you can when you do put him to bed for the night.  My DS sometimes won't go to sleep, either, even when I know he's tired but he'll just stay up in his crib talking away.  I figure he's at least "resting" even if not getting all the sleep I think he needs.  You sound like me, obsessed with sleep!    My DH says I need to think about something else!  Well, he doesn't have to be here all day dealing with it!   

As for what the doctor says about sleep, I personally don't think they know a darn thing about babies and sleep.  I've NEVER had good advice from our pediatricians office on sleep issues.  I just try to read all I can on sleep (like I said, I'm obsessed!) and do what I can to help my DS get all the sleep he can but he doesn't always cooperate!    Although it's not a BW type of book, "Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child" is a great book as far as info on toddlers and babies and sleep. 

I'll keep reading along and hopefully someone out there has some better advice for you in this struggle!

Suzanne
__________
William born 3/23/05

[Harrisonsmummy]

It sounds like you are having a nightmare! H gradually increased his naps from 1hr 20 to 1hr 50 and now can sleep 2hrs average. It has taken 7 months to get to much longer naps, but about 3 to get to 1hr 50mins.

essentially it sounds like you are just constantly fighting the effects of overtiredness, that's what causes the short naps and taking ages to get to sleep and early wake-ups! Why do some have this "wired" effect, and other manage to sleep when they are tired? It is such a frustration!

If you can handle early bedtimes (for some it is a struggle with DH's , work committments etc) I would stick with the earlier nap for a while and maintain a super early bedtime 4.5hrs max after awake time for a couple of weeks, come what may! When H was very tired and too wired to settle (normally when had a tiring day) I would even resort to a hand on his back until he settled.I didn't do this every night, only when he still seemed jumpy after 20 mins or so.  My reasoning has always been do what it takes to get them to sleep when they are overtired, the longer they are awake the worse it gets and because everything else is so much easier when they are rested!


The other thing I resorted too if H had a very bad night and was really tired was to give a catnap as early as I could (8.30/9am - he's an early bird) for 30/40 mins. Suprisingly when they are tired you may just get a couple of naps in for a day or two max, and boost his reserves enough to give you a clear run at pushing the nap back a bit.

You will get through this, just hang on in there! As for the sleep obsession, I thing most people on this board have a degree of that (LOL) - you are in good company!

[twins_2005]

Thanks, Suzanne and Harrisonsmummy, for your advice! I got a real kick/laugh from that "obsessed with sleep" comment!  Ha ha! It's so true... and like I said, I'm so glad this website exists so that I can communicate with people who understand and share my concerns.  My husband also tells me to think of something else... but this weekend, I finally have started to get him around to my side. My daughter -- who was the model sleeper in our house -- is now following her twin brother's footsteps by starting to stay up late too... and have night awakenings!   She's the one who cries a lot when she's overtired (she hasn't done so thus far though). So, things are probably about to get really crazy around here. EEEK!

To top it all off, we're just about to take a vacation.... MUCH needed for me! I'm really looking forward to getting out, and getting a bit of a helping hand from the friends and relatives we're visiting. I'll try to protect the kids' sleep as much as I can... but at the same time have fun too... since we haven't seen everyone for a really long time.

I'll stick to the schedule that works for them... do the extra soothing, like Harrisonsmummy suggested... and see how it goes. Thanks again! Wish me luck!

[Katet]

I've just skimmed through & forgive me if I've missed some vital parts... I too have a 14mo & the transition to 1 nap has been lots of short naps, grumpy whingy child... often helped by playing outside, or putting music he can dance to on or going for a walk in the pram... I also did a 15min cat nap in the Am for a while to get him through the hard early weeks

I think a set bedtime has helped us, but bringing it forward if he had an early waking & short nap... I kind of do the maths... woke at 6am, slept 1 hour, 7pm = 12 hours awake... so needs a 6pm bed time... now (most of the time) he sleeps 7.30pm-7am & 12/12.30- 2.30/3pm
On a different thing, my ds#1 stayed on 2 naps until 21 months & even then & now at 3yo will take himself to his room for a "chill out", maybe your ds needs the "space to unwind" before he can sleep, have you tried letting him play in his cot with toys books at times during the day.
Another thing I really noticed messed things up in the early days (apart from teething... big issue) was the meal timing & the timing of poos... they often caused him to wake early.
Not sure if any of that helps, but thought I'd put it out there

[imsmum]

Not sure if this will help anyone but I also had about a 4-5 month saga sorting out the 1 nap with my dd.  When I looked back recently it seemed that part of the problem was that my dd was going down too early for her nap!  She would nap at 12:30 for 1.5 hours, usually sleep around 7:30 be up most of the night and then wake for the day at 7 am.  I also had a very similar frustration of at first simply not being able to get my dd down any earlier for the night.  I think I was focusing so much on the A times between wakeup and nap and nap and bedtime that I didn't look at the overall picture--that she simply was not ready to go to sleep less than 12 hours after she woke for the day regardless of how tired she was.  Then for a few days she pushed her own nap back to 1 but we kept the same bedtime of 7:30.  No more night wakings but we got up at 5:30 to start the day but Iwas happy with 10 hours solid sleep for her.  When the early wakings started her nap went back to 12:30 and so we were stuck on a 7:30 -5:30 night with a 12:30 nap for a long time until a very fortuitous time change.

I think it is a bit like that sticky I think on the general sleep board (actually I'm not sure itif it's still there) about how Tracy helped an infant get over 45 minute naps by actually pusing naps back a bit.  Not sure if this will help anyone else but that seems like what worked for us.   

[twins_2005]

Hi everyone,

I wanted to THANK YOU all again for helping out with the sleep issues my son went through! Your advice and encouragement has helped us tremendously!

It has been a long 6 - 7 months, but I think my son (now 18 months old) is finally settling down! Knock on wood! Now, he sleeps about 12.5 hours in a day (11 - 11.5 hrs at night, and a 1 - 1.5 hr nap). He now has very few night awakenings... whereas before, he used to wake up for 1 - 3 hours every night! He doesn't sleep 13 - 14 hours like he used to before he turned 1, but I'm still very happy with the hours that he does get! The 12.5 hours he gets is a lot better than 10 - 10.5 hours in a day he used to get in the past few months.

I do the following now:

- He's in bed around 6 pm (a bit earlier if he woke up earlier from his nap). He falls asleep between 6:30 - 7 pm.

- He wakes up around 6 am.

- He naps from about 12 pm - 1/1:30 pm.

**I always leave my kids in their room from 12 pm - 2 pm (minimum) no matter how long their nap is. So, even if they wake up earlier, I keep them in their room until 2 pm. I'm not sure if this is a good thing or not. Any thoughts?
I started this to try out the "quiet time" tip that Katet suggested. (Thanks, Katet!  ) I found that the extra rest really helped my kids remain fresher during the day even if they're just playing quietly and not napping during that entire time period.

My question to you all is: Is 12.5 hours a day enough for a child his age (now 18 months)? I know a lot of toddlers (including his twin sister) get more hours of sleep in a day. But since he seems well-rested, I believe the amount he's getting is probably sufficient for him. I do wish that he'd take a longer nap during the day. But compared to the 30 - 40 minutes nap he used to take during the past few months, a 1 - 1.5 hour nap seems a whole lot better. (I tried different times for the nap -- earlier and later, but found that 12 ish worked the best for the kids.)

Thanks once again!

[Katet]

My only comment would be the "always"... I know someone whose dc can't leave their bedroom before 7am, that rule has been in place for years (since 18mo I think) ... but if that dc wakes up early even if she is crying out/ crying carrying on all she gets told is "it isn't 7 you can't come out" Now of course the child knows they can't come out no matter what.
If he is happy playing on his own then that is great, gives a break to all & teaches independence too... but when they get upset I think it negates it all & then is a problem as you send a mixed message about "rest & relaxation" KWIM

On the 12.5 hours, I read an article on sleep needs a while back & it  said, some children (mostly boys) tend to be "low sleep needs"  or "high sleep needs" compared to the "average" , while girls tend to fall closer to average.... so sounds like he is a low sleep need child

[twins_2005]

Hi Katet,

That's interesting about the article you read. It seems to match what's going on with my kids at least.

Yes, I agree with you about the "always" part. Oops, I didn't mean it so definitively.  My kids play quietly and contently in their rooms after they get up from their naps -- a true blessing (hopefully, one that will last a while longer ). When they sound uncomfortable, are crying, etc. (which is quite rare), I go to them/get them out... because it does defeat the purpose of resting. Plus, they cry so infrequently when they are in their rooms, that I always figure that something must be wrong when they do cry.

I did find that the extra rest got them through the hump of transitioning to one nap though. Earlier, I'd feel guilty leaving them in their room for the extra rest. But when I saw the great benefit the rest had on their mood and on their ability to sleep only once in the day, I became a believer in resting. It really turned things around for my kids (especially my son) during the transition.

Thanks for your input once again!