14 month old staying up late

[Harrisonsmummy]

I think it varies from lo to lo! Some can handle long am wakes until nap. H can make it (with help) from 5am to 12.30pm and still get a nap in. But if he goes to bed later than 5hrs after theend of nap we have struggles to sleep and eventually night-wakings.

Some on the other hand, if they are too tired in the morning won't nap, but can take a much longer afternoon, although they do seem to be in the minority. I think it is because the nap recharges them so they aren't so tired at bedtime and don't get that meltdown going on.

It is "just" a question of finding what works best for you! (or them I should say!)

[imsmum]

I agree 100% with Justine.  I do think that the A time after nap is particularly short when they first go to one nap.  I know a lot of the sleep experts recommend no longer than4.5 hours so your ds is probably overtired if he's got 7 hours of a time after his nap regardless of his bedtime being only 11 to 12 hours after the morning wakeup.  I'd either keep offering him the cat nap as you push the am nap back or just take the plunge and push his nap back to 12.

[twins_2005]

Hi,

I really don't know what I'm doing wrong.   I've pushed out the mid-day nap to the middle of the day (the kids fall asleep between 11:30 and 12), and I make sure the bedtime is around 4.5 hours after them waking up. My son sleeps anywhere between 30 mins - 1 hr (MAX) for his nap. My daughter sleeps about 1.5 hours. She sleeps well at night though (around 12.5 hrs)... but still, she's getting less sleep now than she used to with 2 naps. That's another issue though... and I'm not really concerned about that since it doesn't seem to be a big issue right now.

Now, this is what really concerns me... I put my son in around 4:30 - 5 pm for his bedtime. Some days, he falls asleep and stays asleep until 6 - 6:30 am. Some days, he treats his bedtime like a NAP... and sleeps from 5:30 pm - 6:30 pm, and stays up in his crib until 8:30 - 9 pm! Other days, he doesn't go to sleep at all until 8:30 pm or so. I'm so confused because he ACTS tired. I was going to put him in bed around 5:30 pm yesterday (because I want to try to move closer to their original bedtime), and he was so cranky and weepy, and kept making the baby sign for "sleep"... and so, I put him in bed only 4 hours after being awake... and he still stayed up... and went to sleep about 8 hours after being awake.

I really don't know what I'm doing wrong. Here's his day:

wake up 6 - 6:30
nap 11:30 - 12 (lasts 30 mins - 1 hour)
bedtime 5 (but he doesn't actually sleep until a much later time)

I keep wondering if I should go back to 2 naps... ? But that system was broken too. 

Also, I was wondering -- how long should I keep offering my kids the earlier bedtime? Like I said, their nap is not long... and so, I've stuck to the earlier bedtime. So, do I stick to this until they lengthen their naptime? Is there anyway to encourage a longer naptime?

Thanks again!!

[Florencia]

I would say that this is all part of 2-1 nap transition. My guess is that since your dd seems to be an angel sleeper, she'll adjust to a longer nap as time goes by and you'll be able to go for a later bedtime then.

With your son, just keep things consistant and he should be able to understand it's bedtime for good and also adjust to a longer nap that allows him to go down later for bedtime. Meantime is early bedtime for both while they adjust.

I don't think it would be helpful to go back to 2 naps for either of them. DD seems to be well rested and have the amount of sleep she needs given her age. DS seems to be a tough cookie and it might take him a good extra 2 weeks before he gets the dynamics straight. Just keep up the good job, and i know it sounds like too much work but i guarantee you it will get better as you remain consistant.

Good luck! it sounds to me as you're dealing just fine with it.

[twins_2005]

Thanks for the encouragement, Florencia! The transition period is confusing and difficult, and it helps to hear that I should just keep at it. Also, thanks for the clarification on when to start the later bedtime. It makes sense!

[twins_2005]

Hi. It's me again. I’m confused once more. 

I really am planning to remain consistent with my son’s bedtime. The only thing that’s really throwing me off (now) is that he has been staying up until around 8 pm for the past 6 days. It’s confusing me because for the past 1.5 months, the time he decides to fall asleep has been different/inconsistent. But for the past 6 days, he’s been falling asleep consistently around 8ish pm and getting up around 6 am or so. He used to sleep from 6 pm - 6/6:30 am. I still place him in his crib around 5:30 pm – which is roughly 4.5 hours after he wakes up from his nap. He takes one nap for about 1 hour… sometimes 1.5 hours. Today, he slept 2 hours! Phew! So, on average, he’s been sleeping about 11.5 hours. He doesn’t seem inordinately tired anymore (like he used to when he first started to reduce the number of hours he sleeps). (Or maybe I'm just getting used to his new behavior...)

I had a couple of doctor visits for the babies this past week, and the doctors said that maybe he needs only that much amount of sleep. I know that could be true. It just seemed so drastic to me for him to SUDDENLY reduce the amount he sleeps from 14 hrs to 11.5 hours. One day - 1.5 months ago - he started sleeping a LOT less. He’s been going back to 14 hours every now and then.

Like I said, I do want to keep at it, and keep his bedtime consistent, but I just can’t help questioning whether or not his new self-proclaimed bedtime is just 8 pm. What do you think? I'm afraid that if I make his bedtime 8 pm, he could get overtired. Also, I'm afraid that if I put him in at 7:30 - 8 pm, he might just stay up until 9 pm or so. 

Also, what is interesting is that he welcomes bedtime. He starts yawning around 4:30 pm. He even helps me put away the books after reading time, and he happily goes to his crib. He just hangs out for a really, really, really long time (like 2 hours) after he's been placed in there before finally going to sleep!

Thanks again so much for your support and encouragement through this very confusing time!! I really appreciate your help!

[imsmum]

Is nap time still at 11:30 or 12?  I found with my lo that even if the nap is early so she is tired at the usual 5 hours after nap wakeup she cannot go to sleep until it's been at least 13-14 hours after she wakes in the morning (unless she is feverish--then she'll go down early) so she actually does better with a later nap or else she is overtired at bedtime and will not sleep as long at night or if this happens a lot have the dreaded night wakings!  Like your little guy she is usually up at 6 but doesn't nap until 1 and then is asleep by 8 (but she is 2 so she probably doesn't need as much night sleep as your little guy)  So I would actually try to push the nap back a bit and keep up with an early bedtime (although maybe make it closer to 6 or 6:30) HTH

[twins_2005]

Thanks, imsmum, for the suggestion. The kids and I were sick for about 1 week, and so, I'm finally getting back to focusing on the nap and bedtime. For about a week or so, ds was sleeping wonderfully. His body needed that extra sleep to recover. Now that he's feeling better, he's back to his antics... confusing his mama, and sleeping at all sorts of odd hours. Ugh! (I was still working with a 11:30 am naptime.) Well, it seems that something is just not jiving with him as far as timing of nap/bedtime goes. I'll try what you suggested and see how it goes. I feel bad for my poor dd who has to go along with all this shuffling around of their schedule. LUCKILY... she doesn't complain much about it.

Thanks again!

[twins_2005]

Hi there! I'm getting really discouraged now.  I've been pushing our my kids' nap to 12 pm... but their nap always becomes shorter when I push it out in the day. Even earlier, I had tried to aim for a 12 or 12:30 pm nap, but it always seemed that they took a longer nap when it started around 11:30 am. What do you think? Do shorter naps occur initially when you try to push out the naptime a bit? My son, for example, has only slept 40 minutes today.... after sleeping not even 10 hours last night. So, that's a whopping total of 10.5 hours for the day.... down almost 3.5 hrs from what he used to sleep before all this began.

My son still seems sleepy and cranky during the day. His eyes are red and glassy... Is this normal? I didn't think so. He often comes to me and lies down on my lap and hangs out there for a few minutes. He never used to do this. He's so much more whiny. I think I'm getting really discouraged now. The advice I get from medical professionals is not very helpful. Some say to stick to the schedule and let him hang out in his crib if he's not complaining. Others say to change his bedtime to 8, and let him take a long nap during the day. Oh sure! If he only took a decent nap during the day! Others tell me that it's normal for children this age to take ONE 15 - 20 minute nap and not sleep too much during the night either. Well... maybe he's suddenly become one of these kids.   

Any suggestions? Maybe I just have to face things... I might just have a child who likes to sleep at a vastly different time every night... although I think that's crazy! Lately, the time he falls asleep has varied from 6:30 to 8:45... There is no pattern. Sometimes it's 6:30, sometimes it's 7, sometimes it's 7:40, sometimes 8:15, sometimes 8:45... you get the idea. I really don't know what to do for him. He's tired, but he doesn't sleep.

I'm sorry... I know I sound frustrated. I feel that he needs more sleep based on his behavior. But because he stays up even when sleep is offered to him, I'm beginning to think that he's becoming a wide-eyed lil' guy!

I'm so glad this website exists and there is a great group of people to support us through various things. Thanks so much! Any ideas are really appreciated!

[mom2william]

Hi Twins 2005,

I have been following your saga because I too have moved my DS to one nap and am having issues.  I don't know if you think your DS is having all the problems he is because of switching to one nap or not but I think that's why we're having problems.

I am so frustrated with our switch to one nap.  It has gone on for about 3 months but that may be due to my indecisiveness and his body just really going back and forth on the 2 nap 1 nap thing.  My DS is having bedtime issues, too.  I try to put him down early as he seems tired in the late afternoon.  I try putting him to bed sometimes as early as 6:00pm (based on how long he's napped and when he got up.  Usually around 5 hours from the time he got up from his nap)  But a lot of times, he won't go to sleep until 8:00pm!  Somedays he'll go down easily at 7:00pm or earlier.  It's a crapshoot, I tell you!  Last night he screamed and cried for 45 minutes while we tried getting him down.  He finally calmed down and went to sleep around 7:25pm. 

My son gets up around 6:30am-7:00am (He's started sleeping a bit later in the morning, yay!).  I've been trying for a nap around 11:00-11:30am, too.  He doesn't have 40min. naps like your little guy but he sometimes sleeps about an hour, hour and a half which I don't feel is that long but I'll take it.  But, since a lot of times he's up around 1:00pm from his nap I try to put him to bed early so he won't get overtired but he then won't go to sleep!

My suggestion would just try and be as consistent as you can when you do put him to bed for the night.  My DS sometimes won't go to sleep, either, even when I know he's tired but he'll just stay up in his crib talking away.  I figure he's at least "resting" even if not getting all the sleep I think he needs.  You sound like me, obsessed with sleep!    My DH says I need to think about something else!  Well, he doesn't have to be here all day dealing with it!   

As for what the doctor says about sleep, I personally don't think they know a darn thing about babies and sleep.  I've NEVER had good advice from our pediatricians office on sleep issues.  I just try to read all I can on sleep (like I said, I'm obsessed!) and do what I can to help my DS get all the sleep he can but he doesn't always cooperate!    Although it's not a BW type of book, "Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child" is a great book as far as info on toddlers and babies and sleep. 

I'll keep reading along and hopefully someone out there has some better advice for you in this struggle!

Suzanne
__________
William born 3/23/05

[Harrisonsmummy]

It sounds like you are having a nightmare! H gradually increased his naps from 1hr 20 to 1hr 50 and now can sleep 2hrs average. It has taken 7 months to get to much longer naps, but about 3 to get to 1hr 50mins.

essentially it sounds like you are just constantly fighting the effects of overtiredness, that's what causes the short naps and taking ages to get to sleep and early wake-ups! Why do some have this "wired" effect, and other manage to sleep when they are tired? It is such a frustration!

If you can handle early bedtimes (for some it is a struggle with DH's , work committments etc) I would stick with the earlier nap for a while and maintain a super early bedtime 4.5hrs max after awake time for a couple of weeks, come what may! When H was very tired and too wired to settle (normally when had a tiring day) I would even resort to a hand on his back until he settled.I didn't do this every night, only when he still seemed jumpy after 20 mins or so.  My reasoning has always been do what it takes to get them to sleep when they are overtired, the longer they are awake the worse it gets and because everything else is so much easier when they are rested!


The other thing I resorted too if H had a very bad night and was really tired was to give a catnap as early as I could (8.30/9am - he's an early bird) for 30/40 mins. Suprisingly when they are tired you may just get a couple of naps in for a day or two max, and boost his reserves enough to give you a clear run at pushing the nap back a bit.

You will get through this, just hang on in there! As for the sleep obsession, I thing most people on this board have a degree of that (LOL) - you are in good company!

[twins_2005]

Thanks, Suzanne and Harrisonsmummy, for your advice! I got a real kick/laugh from that "obsessed with sleep" comment!  Ha ha! It's so true... and like I said, I'm so glad this website exists so that I can communicate with people who understand and share my concerns.  My husband also tells me to think of something else... but this weekend, I finally have started to get him around to my side. My daughter -- who was the model sleeper in our house -- is now following her twin brother's footsteps by starting to stay up late too... and have night awakenings!   She's the one who cries a lot when she's overtired (she hasn't done so thus far though). So, things are probably about to get really crazy around here. EEEK!

To top it all off, we're just about to take a vacation.... MUCH needed for me! I'm really looking forward to getting out, and getting a bit of a helping hand from the friends and relatives we're visiting. I'll try to protect the kids' sleep as much as I can... but at the same time have fun too... since we haven't seen everyone for a really long time.

I'll stick to the schedule that works for them... do the extra soothing, like Harrisonsmummy suggested... and see how it goes. Thanks again! Wish me luck!

[Katet]

I've just skimmed through & forgive me if I've missed some vital parts... I too have a 14mo & the transition to 1 nap has been lots of short naps, grumpy whingy child... often helped by playing outside, or putting music he can dance to on or going for a walk in the pram... I also did a 15min cat nap in the Am for a while to get him through the hard early weeks

I think a set bedtime has helped us, but bringing it forward if he had an early waking & short nap... I kind of do the maths... woke at 6am, slept 1 hour, 7pm = 12 hours awake... so needs a 6pm bed time... now (most of the time) he sleeps 7.30pm-7am & 12/12.30- 2.30/3pm
On a different thing, my ds#1 stayed on 2 naps until 21 months & even then & now at 3yo will take himself to his room for a "chill out", maybe your ds needs the "space to unwind" before he can sleep, have you tried letting him play in his cot with toys books at times during the day.
Another thing I really noticed messed things up in the early days (apart from teething... big issue) was the meal timing & the timing of poos... they often caused him to wake early.
Not sure if any of that helps, but thought I'd put it out there

[imsmum]

Not sure if this will help anyone but I also had about a 4-5 month saga sorting out the 1 nap with my dd.  When I looked back recently it seemed that part of the problem was that my dd was going down too early for her nap!  She would nap at 12:30 for 1.5 hours, usually sleep around 7:30 be up most of the night and then wake for the day at 7 am.  I also had a very similar frustration of at first simply not being able to get my dd down any earlier for the night.  I think I was focusing so much on the A times between wakeup and nap and nap and bedtime that I didn't look at the overall picture--that she simply was not ready to go to sleep less than 12 hours after she woke for the day regardless of how tired she was.  Then for a few days she pushed her own nap back to 1 but we kept the same bedtime of 7:30.  No more night wakings but we got up at 5:30 to start the day but Iwas happy with 10 hours solid sleep for her.  When the early wakings started her nap went back to 12:30 and so we were stuck on a 7:30 -5:30 night with a 12:30 nap for a long time until a very fortuitous time change.

I think it is a bit like that sticky I think on the general sleep board (actually I'm not sure itif it's still there) about how Tracy helped an infant get over 45 minute naps by actually pusing naps back a bit.  Not sure if this will help anyone else but that seems like what worked for us.   

[twins_2005]

Hi everyone,

I wanted to THANK YOU all again for helping out with the sleep issues my son went through! Your advice and encouragement has helped us tremendously!

It has been a long 6 - 7 months, but I think my son (now 18 months old) is finally settling down! Knock on wood! Now, he sleeps about 12.5 hours in a day (11 - 11.5 hrs at night, and a 1 - 1.5 hr nap). He now has very few night awakenings... whereas before, he used to wake up for 1 - 3 hours every night! He doesn't sleep 13 - 14 hours like he used to before he turned 1, but I'm still very happy with the hours that he does get! The 12.5 hours he gets is a lot better than 10 - 10.5 hours in a day he used to get in the past few months.

I do the following now:

- He's in bed around 6 pm (a bit earlier if he woke up earlier from his nap). He falls asleep between 6:30 - 7 pm.

- He wakes up around 6 am.

- He naps from about 12 pm - 1/1:30 pm.

**I always leave my kids in their room from 12 pm - 2 pm (minimum) no matter how long their nap is. So, even if they wake up earlier, I keep them in their room until 2 pm. I'm not sure if this is a good thing or not. Any thoughts?
I started this to try out the "quiet time" tip that Katet suggested. (Thanks, Katet!  ) I found that the extra rest really helped my kids remain fresher during the day even if they're just playing quietly and not napping during that entire time period.

My question to you all is: Is 12.5 hours a day enough for a child his age (now 18 months)? I know a lot of toddlers (including his twin sister) get more hours of sleep in a day. But since he seems well-rested, I believe the amount he's getting is probably sufficient for him. I do wish that he'd take a longer nap during the day. But compared to the 30 - 40 minutes nap he used to take during the past few months, a 1 - 1.5 hour nap seems a whole lot better. (I tried different times for the nap -- earlier and later, but found that 12 ish worked the best for the kids.)

Thanks once again!