8 Month Old- Wont Go Down til 10:30 PM- 2 Hour EASY- What am I doing wrong?

[SShold]

Hi there!  I have a few questions about my beautiful 8 month old baby girl.

First of all- I love the Baby Whisperer.  I have been implementing many of the methods since she was 3 months old.  During the day she goes down to sleep like a dream.  It has really helped me to read my baby's cues and understand her better.

I haven't been really strict on the EASY times.  I have mostly just tried to stick to a routine and watch her cues.  She normally wakes between 7 and 7:30.  I bf right away.  Then she goes down to nap around 9 or 9:30.  This brings me to my first question- she is only up for 2 hours at a time- maybe 2 and a half tops.  She will then show her tired cues (rubbing her eye and sucking her thumb).  I will put her down in her bed and she will fall right asleep.  Should she be up for longer than this at her age?  How do I stretch this?  What should I expect to see?  I read awhile back in a baby magazine that a babies brain actually releases some hormone when they get overtired which makes it very hard for them to sleep.  She is pretty crazy when she gets overtired.  I am afraid if I try to stretch it she will get overtired and then I wont be able to get her down so nicely.

She will normally nap for about 2-3 hours.  It has been closer to 3 lately, ever since she started crawling a couple weeks ago.  Here is my next question- should I be waking her sooner?  I know that good sleep during the day makes for good sleep at night.  And she is only sleeping about 8-9 hours at night so I want to make sure she is getting enough sleep overall.  Should I be getting her up at the 2 hour mark?

Then we start the process over again.  She wakes, I bf her, she plays for about an hour and a half and then it is back down for a nap.  She takes a morning nap, an early afternoon nap, and then a cat nap around dinner time.  When she wakes from her cat nap I feed her again (even though it hasn't been 4 hours- I just want her to have a little extra to tide her over at night.)

The problem is with all this napping she isn't getting to sleep until around 10-11pm each night.  She will seem tired between 8-9 and I will usually try to nurse her.  Sometimes this will put her to sleep but a lot of time it seems to bring her back to life and she will want to play for another hour or two.  I have tried to put her down without nursing her (that works SO well during the day) but it as if she knows it is late at night and she cries and cries until I nurse her.  It is only at bedtime that she seems to insist on being nursed to sleep.  I used to use the shush/pat method on her and it worked great except at this last bedtime.  I know she is too old for that so I have also tried pu/pd with her but it I will do it for over an hour and all she will do is scream.  If I nurse her she will fall asleep. 

Maybe I am doing pu/pd wrong...it seems that as soon as I start to lay her down she will start screaming again.  Then I set her down for about 5 seconds and then pick her up again.  When I pick her up she will cry for another 10 minutes or more until she finally settles down again- only to start when I lean over to lay her down.  It is exhausting.

I guess my main question is am I doing the right things during the day.  I think if maybe she is up more during the day she might go to bed earlier.  But I want to make sure she is getting all the sleep she needs- I don't want to make her overtired just to fit my schedule better. 

Other notes that might be helpful- she is eating all different kinds of baby food (that I make) but I only feed her baby food at dinner.  Should I be feeding her baby food more often?  Another thing that might be helpful is she has always been a small baby.  She only weights about 15 pounds right now- she has been in the 20th percentile for her height and the 5th percentile for her weight.

Thanks SO much for your help!  I want to do what is best for my baby but I miss times with my husband too!!

Steph

[Kimberly®]

By 8 months your LO should be able to do 3-4 hours wake time. You need to transition to a 4 hour EASY routine.  how many bf a day/night? and yes she should be having 3 meals a day by now, not large meals, her main nutrition still comes from the BF, but try doing a morning and lunch solids meal about half and hour to an hour after bf. What food has she had so far?

If she is having 2 naps that are more then 2 hours then she is having to much daytime sleep which is effecting her night sleep. Yes good day sleep leads to good night sleep, but in moderation, right now there is a little bit of a night/day confusion I think.

When you transition do it 15-20 minutes at a time until you reach 4 hours. Don't rush her, follow her lead. She should be having 2 naps of 1.5 hours at this age, start waking her at the 1.5 hour mark, your EASY will start to be AEASY and thats OK, as she gets older you'll notice that EASY will continue to change. You've done a great job of listening to your LO just continue to listen and make the changes so that they are easy on you both.

Try to aim for a bedtime between 7-8pm, if you don't have a bedtime routine start implementing one now, the earlier you start the better. As for the nursing to sleep at night, I'm not to good with that as I don't have that problem, I recommend you ask at the breastfeeding forum and they may have some good advice for you.

Sounds like your doing PU/PD right from what you said, but I have a few questions,  are you picking up with a real cry or a mantra cry? you may be doing it to early, you may not, its a hard one. PU/PD is a lot of hard work. The first night I did it it took me well over an hour, but everyday it did get better. When she cries do you stop putting her down? or do you put her down anyway? have you tried just laying your hand on her and not picking her up right away when she cries? Also can your LO roll over or pull herself up in the crib? does she do so? if she does have you tried just PD at all? and finally does she have a lovie at all? if not try introducing one.

I completely understand your dilemma, especially as a mother who has a child who doesn't like to nap  when she goes to sleep I really hate to wake her, but you need to balance it so your LO is getting the right amount of day and night sleep. She should be going 10-12 hours at night, not necessarily strait through, she may need a feed since she isn't used to sleeping that long, but she may not, but try to restrict day sleep to no more then 3-3.5 hours and you'll likely see an improvement, be ready to have a much earlier bedtime when you switch the naps as she will be tired. The first week will be the hardest, but as she gets used to it, things will get better.

Don't fret, your doing a great job and will these new things in place, you should have your evenings with your DH back again, and they are well worth the effort.

HTH

[SShold]

Thank you SOOO much for taking the time to respond.  I have a couple more questions and the answers to yours...

Can you refresh me on the 3 hour easy?  I let a friend borrow my book to see if she likes it and now I feel totally lost!  I was writing down what you said- so she should be awake for 3-4 hours at a time.  So a tentative sleep schedule would be:
7am- wake (is it best if I wake her each morning at the same time?  Or let her sleep til she wakes herself?)
10:00- nap
11:30- wake her
2:30- nap
4:00- waker her
7- down for the night

That sounds good to me   I think I can get her to be awake for 3 hours.  It would really help me get errands and stuff done!!  My question with this is- on the 3 hour easy (is this what this is?) how often do i feed her?  Now I always bf her as soon as she wakes up from a nap- so that is around 7, after her morning nap, after her afternoon nap, after her cat nap, and right before bed=5 times per day.  So on this schedule that would drop to 4.  But you said something about it being AEASY- so should I not be feeding her right when she gets up but waiting a certain amount of hours since her last feeding?


I tfed her some regular food at breakfast today.  She seems to like everything I give her.  So far she has had: avacados, sweet potatoes, squash, peas, carrots, chicken, beef, potatoes, mango, papaya, banana, appleasauce, pears, pancakes (no syrup), blueberries, yogurt (plain), and cherrios.  I am always looking for more things to feed her- especially things she can pick up.  She feeds herself cherrios very well and also can pick up the pancakes and eat them herself. 

Right now her bedtime routine has been go in her room, turn on her noise machine, change her diaper, nurse, and bed.  I am not sure I want to take the time to bathe her every night- and she seems to wake up more when I do it anyways.  Do you have any other suggestions on what I can do for a bedtime routine?  Right now I just try to hurry and get her in her bed when she is showing signs of being tired.

For PU/PD- I go in there to help her when she is doing her angry cry.  And she will continue to do her angry cry throughout the whole process.  When she cries I stop putting her down and try to hold her, being very still and shushing, trying to console her.  I wait until she stops crying (which can take a very long time) before I attempt to lay her back down.  She is usually wide awake and angry through all of this- not dozing off or anything.  I have tried laying my hand on her in her bed, patting her back, and rubbing her back.  She just acts angry and lays there looking at me nd screaming.  She rolls over well and puts herself into a crawling position.  She does not pull herself up to a sitting position yet.  What does it mean to just try PD?  She doesnt have a lovie or anything- but she does suck her thumb.  If she sucks her thumb she will settle down pretty quickly- but she is usally so angry that I cannot even get her to suck her thumb.  She doesnt like pacifiers.

My last question is about the 4 hour easy.  I listed what I think is the 3 hour easy above...my baby being awake for 3 hours at a time.  But you said to gradually move her towards being awake for 4 hours at a time.  What would that type of schedule look like?  I am trying to write it out and it looks something like this:
7am- wake
11- nap
12:30- wake
4:30- nap
6:00- wake
10:00- bed
Now- this doesnt seem right because she would be up late again.  Can you give me direction on what this is supposed to look like?  I am sure it will take her quite awhile to get to being awake for 4 hours at a time but I would love to know what to strive for.

Again- thanks a ton for taking the time to help me!!!!!!!!

Steph

[HeatherC]

Here's a thread with sample routines for 6-12 months old.  A few down on the first page has an 8 month old with a wake up time of 7 that might help you.  4 hour EASY means that you are feeding every 4 hours (the bf mainly) with the solids following about 1-1.5 hrs after.  Just so you have some ideas, my dd only did 2.5 hours of A time in the morning until she was 12 months old, and the afternoon A time varied from 3-4 hours, depending on her mood.  So, continue to follow your dd's cues, but also keep in mind that you are guiding her to follow a more stable routine for her benefit.  It really sounds like you are doing wonderfully!
My dd had this routine from about 6-8 months:
8 am wake and feed (she took her liquid and solids together)
10-12 nap
12 feed
2-4 nap
5:30 dinner
7/7:30 liquid feed
8 bed

from about 9-13 months she did this:
8 wake and feed
10:30-12:30 nap
12:30 lunch
bottle somewhere in here until 10/11 months
3:00 snack (starting around 11/12 months)
3:30-5 nap
5:30 dinner
7:30 bottle until 12 months
8:00 bed

From about 12-14 months the pm nap became 4-5:30 until she eventually dropped it around 14 months and began taking one nap after lunch.