Trying for 3.5-4 hr EASY (long, sorry)

[Metstark]

Hi, I have posted before about my lo's lack of sleep. I have been trying to do an EASY routine but it seems very difficult. My lo can go 3.5-4 hrs between feeds. For his age it seems he should be on a 3 hr EASY but he gets fussy when I feed him every 3 hrs and won't take the whole bottle. We have been struggling with naps and he barely gets 2 or 3, 30-45 min naps a day and they are usually in his swing, our lap, or carseat. His nights have been fine up until a few days ago and now he doesn't want to stay in his bed and wakes up a lot at night crying. He is around 16 lbs and 11 wks old. I figure he is getting overtired and the places we let him sleep aren't helping but shh/pat doesn't seem to work for him and he gets more upset, so we just give in and keep doing whatever works. We got him to sleep last night after putting him in bed at 7:30 and I rubbed his belly for 2 hrs as he fussed and kicked around in his bed (he wasn't crying, which is a first) He fell asleep at 9:30 then woke up at 1:30am for a feed, then again around 3,4,5am and DH fed him at 5am and tried to get him to sleep again but he wouldn't and cried for 1.5 hrs. I got up, played with him, put him in his swing and he slept for 25 min. I fed him again at 9 and he wasn't very hungry, then played for a bit and got fussy after about 1 hr. Cuddled on my lap for 15 min, then fell asleep in my arms and slept for 45 min, woke up crying and so I put him in his swing and is currently sleeping there for the past 30 min or so. One of the concerns I have is that, if we play with him and pay a lot of attention and keep changing scenes he is happy for quite a long time, he will sometimes stay up for hours and hours before just passing out. If he seems happy at times should he still go down for naps after an hour or so? To keep with the schedule? Will he eventually learn to nap more effeciently if we start getting him to nap at regular intervals? I just find it hard to read his cues because he will sometimes be smiling and happy for long periods of time and then upset at other times and I find it hard to tell when he is tired unless he is actually yawning and closing his eyes and then I imagine he is already overtired. Do all babies need long naps? He also seems to wake in the morning anywhere from 5:30-7:30 and I can't get him back to sleep after that for a while. How do I get him to wake on a routine time like say 7 if he is already up at 6 and won't go back down? He does have a bath everynight at 6:30 and then cuddle and we are trying to get him in bed by at least 8 from now on, when we were previously having him up until 11 sometimes crying. For the past week we have let him sleep in our arms from 7pm til around 8:30pm (except for last night), given him his last bottle at 8:30pm, diaper change and then try to get him in bed by 9:30 (sometimes he will go to sleep quickly, sometimes it takes an hour or more). We are at our wits end with everything, because we basically have to hold him all day, or he cries. The last couple nights before last night he wouldn't sleep in his bed so we brought him in our bed for two nights in a row, but we decided last night to get him to sleep in his bed (which he did, even with all the early morning wakings). How can I make this work? Another thing is that he sleeps in our room in a bassinette, which we think he has outgrown, so we are getting a crib this week and will have easier access to him when he is in bed. Right now the bassinette is quite difficult to do any patting effectively, without us having to hurt our backs. We just can't figure out if he is too young for a 3.5-4 hr EASY, since maybe mentally he can't handle all the awake time but he isn't hungry at 3 hrs. Obviously he can't sleep for 3-2.5 hr stretches like the routine would call for so we are at a loss as what to do???. We are worried if he sleeps too much during the day, he then won't sleep at night. Any help would be greatly appreciated, and sorry for it being so long!!

[Metstark]

One more thing I am wondering is if he is already very overtired, then should I let him sleep for as long as he wants until he gets his sleep caught up? He has been sleeping now for 2 hrs (1 hr in my arms, 1 hr in the swing). Should I wake him or just let him sleep until he wakes? Since he is already overtired will it affect his night sleep or will it help at this point? I am going to start him taking naps in his crib when we get it in a few days. Thanks again.

[HeatherC]

https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64273.0 (why you wake for feeds)
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=26672.0 (how to do pat/shh)

Ok, I wanted to go ahead and post those before I forgot.  Those are a few links to some topics in the Sleep Forums that might be of help to you.  I found those under the FAQs catergories, but the posts on the general boards may also be of help if you have a chance to browse through them.

My first thought in reading your post is that your lo might be a bit spirited.  Do you think this is true? 
One of the concerns I have is that, if we play with him and pay a lot of attention and keep changing scenes he is happy for quite a long time, he will sometimes stay up for hours and hours before just passing out. If he seems happy at times should he still go down for naps after an hour or so? To keep with the schedule?  I just find it hard to read his cues because he will sometimes be smiling and happy for long periods of time and then upset at other times and I find it hard to tell when he is tired unless he is actually yawning and closing his eyes and then I imagine he is already overtired.
This is what made me think that.  Spiriteds don't show sleepy signs until it's too late, and before that they appear very alert and hyper.  This means that regularly schedules naps could be very important for your lo.  I believe that if you begin to chart his awake times and following nap lengths, then you may be able to find what balance of time leads to better naps.

I figure he is getting overtired and the places we let him sleep aren't helping but shh/pat doesn't seem to work for him and he gets more upset, so we just give in and keep doing whatever works.
How long do you try the pat/shh?  Do you try it for every sleep?  You have to in order to see results.  You can't give up or give in, or it won't work.  If you find that the way described in the book doesn't exactly work, you can find a variation of the method that does work for your lo.  Simply laying your firm hand on his back or belly, only patting and not shhing, for example, are other ways people use the method.  Also, do you have his sleep environment ready for sleep-white noise can help, a totally dark room (visiual stimuli can make it impossible for spiriteds and some touchies to sleep).  The more you let him sleep on you or in the swing, the longer it will be before he sleeps in his own bed.  It will be hard, but it can be done.  I promise  !

As for day sleep, I believe at his age he needs between 4-5 hours.  Someone will correct me if I'm wrong I hope.  I think that if he is able to have longer naps, then his feeding might improve when he's not in a cycle of overtiredness.  If you feel he needs to be on a 3.5 hr routine, then you can have A time of about 1 hr 15 mins, try for a nap of 1.5-2 hrs, and then a little more A time before the next feed.  At that point, though, you will need to keep the activity level very low key as to not overstimulate him.  He will probably be ready for a nap sooner after the next feed since he will have already been up for 30 mins, so then you might end up feeding at 3 hrs the next feed, or having and extra catnap in the evening to get him through until bedtime.

Also, do you have a winddown routine for each sleep time?  Do you swaddle him?  These are very, very important elements when it comes to having a baby nap.

I hope some of this helps you. 

[Metstark]

Thank you for your response! We were doing shh/pat for every sleep attempt while walking him around up until about a week and half ago when we stopped the shh/pat because he seemed to get overstimulated before every nap or night sleep. I tried it again today after he woke up and had a feed then activity for about 1hr 15 min and he freaked out! I thought he was in pain or broke something, he was literally shrieking. I had taken him into a pitch black room (like always when we try and calm him) did shh/pat while holding him and I sat on the bed close to his bassinette so I could put him down if he got drowsy. I kept shrieking and arching his back, so I got up and walked him around and he was still screaming he kept spitting out his paci to scream. I came out into the light and he settled a bit, so I went back in and tried to lay him in his bassinette and he shrieked, so I kept shh/pat and sitting on the bed but he wouldn't settle. We did this for about 20 min when I brought him back out into the living room and he immediately fell asleep when I sat in the rocking chair. He has just started this really bad shrieking when we put him in his bed, it is like as we are about to lay him down. He previously would go in his bed and not cry for a few minutes or if it was late at night, would fall asleep. I am so confused. Is he just frustrated that I am trying new things? I don't swaddle him because he seems to hate it and I haven't had a chance to really get a thin enough blanket to try (it is extremely hot here and if he cries at all he gets clammy and sweaty) To wind down we usually walk him around with his paci if he wants it, or a bath at night. He usually claws at us and flings his arms around and arches his back until he just lets go and falls asleep in our arms. We used to be able to then lay him in his bed (only at night, he would protest during the day so we would hold him or put in swing) but now he doesn't ever want to be in his bed it seems. It is hard because we have no outside help and I never get a break from it all (only once for 3 hrs since he was born) so I am kinda losing my mind and finding it hard to stick to anything if I don't see some change. This is all so hard and it is impossible to tell if I am doing anything right. I am just hoping it will get easier over time (as everyone tells me) but I am not so sure!

[HeatherC]

BIG {{{{{{HUGS}}}}}}}  to you.  I'm so sorry you are having a rough time and that you don't have any outside help.  I do have a few ideas, but I understand how tiring it is to keep looking for something to work.
First, do you have Tracy's "Solves All Your Problems" book?  It talks about a method called the 4 S's to winddown at each sleep time, including naps:
Set the stage - prepare you LO room for sleep; remove stimulation, darken room, lullaby....
Swaddle - (I used to swaddle now I use a gro'bag with his arms swaddled)
Sitting - Quietly without any stimulation, and when necessary..
Shush-pat
I believe that the shh/pat is only necessary if he begins to cry.  I realize that swaddling is difficult for some babies, but often times the ones that protest it the most are the ones that need it the most.  Have you tried letting him sleep in just his diaper and then swaddling?  Just a thought.  You say he likes the rocking chair, so you can use that in your winddown, but put him down when he is very drowsy, but awake.
I think the reason he is becoming so upset is either overtired, or overstimulated with the winddown.  It may be that walking him around and doing the shh/pat are frustrating b/c he wants to go to sleep.  Try starting the winddown about 15-20 mins before he should be falling asleep, and use the 4 S's.  Sometimes, too much walking around and/or talking can send them into hysterics, so maybe limit those things.  He is, of course, going to be frustrated when you try to get him to sleep any way other than in your arms or in his swing b/c that is what he is used to.  However, that is not what is best for him in the long run, and you are his parent there to guide him in the best direction.  It will be best for you both, the whole family, if he learns to fall asleep in his own bed, in his own room and on his own.  You don't want to have to carry him around like that when he weighs 15-20 pounds. 
Now, don't get anxious, these things take time, go slowly.  Maybe even just work on one nap at a time for now.  You may find that the others fall into place on their own. 

[Zoey]

Hi there!  I think I may be blind but I can't find your Lo's age anywhere?  Is he about 11-12 weeks??  Sorry, it's probably there and I don't see it lol
 
My Owen has that same bouncy seat - don't you just love it?!?  I am sorry you are having such a rough time!  Looks like Heather has given you some excellent advice.  I just wanted to add a few opinions of my own, I hope this is ok!

About swaddling, Heather is SO right - spirited LO's Need a swaddle!  Babies who hate swaddling, need it the most.  Owen is a HOT baby, we used a thin cotton bed sheet cut up into squares to swaddle.  He is also a BIG baby and the sheet cut up was bigger then any blanket so it worked two-fold.  Perhaps you can try that!

For the 3 hour easy vs the 3.5-4 hour easy.  You said he won't take his whole bottle at the 3 hour mark.  Have you tried giving less in the bottle, and moving to the 3 hour easy which will give another feeding?  So in the end, he will be getting the same amount of formula in 24 hours just less, more frequently.  That way, he can do the A times for 3 hour easy.  That may be easier.  Just my thought!

I agree with Heather about the 4S's, a wind down is SO important for every baby to have - its like a transition for them from HI IM AWAKE to ok its time to sleep now.  It helps them relax enough to fall asleep, and stay asleep.  I highly rec a dark, very dark room - we use tinfoil over the windows.  Have you tried white noise?  We use a fan set on high facing really close to the wall - works great.

I also agree he is overstimulated and overtired.  I wouldn't do any walking about with him.  I would go in his room 15 mins prior to the end of his A time (so if his A time is an hour, start the wind down after 45 mins of A time) and start the 4 S's.  If you need to rock, perhaps you can do that for 5 mins before you start the wind down - that's just my opinion.  Set the stage, swaddle, and sit quietly and softly talk to him or sing or hum with him up on your shoulder.  If he is freaking out you can start to pat/shh him while on your shoulder.  If he is ok, move to the crib and set him down, say I love you, time for sleep or whatever and duck out of his sight.  Put him down calm but awake.  You want him to associate feeling sleepy with being in the crib. Now keep out of sight and wait!  If he cries, go back to him, turn him on his side, and firmly pat his back with shh.  If he fusses wait and see what happens, wait for a cry.  Some babies have to fuss to settle, so wait and see what he does.

Like Heather said, you can experiment with the kind of touch he likes.  Owen hates Shhing, he likes just a firm pat on his back.  Some like butt rub, back rub, butt jiggle, head rub, ot just a firm hand on the back.  Humming, shhing, singing, soft talking, or nothing.  Find what combo he finds soothing and go with it.  Do this until he is calm, then slow it down, slower, slower as he gets more and more settled, then stop, and keep your hand on his back for a few moments, then remove your hand and just stand there quietly and watch.  If he seems settled and going off to sleep sneak out, if he starts up again, you start again with patting and shhing and repeat the slowing bla bla bla.

I think the big trouble here is he is way overtired.  I would rec moving to the 3 hour easy if you can, those A times are better, and he will still get the same amount of formula, just divide it into 6 bottles instead of 5.  If he is less overtired, he will be less overstimulated and it will be easier (much) to settle him for sleep. 

You are doing a fabulous job, having a spirited LO is HARD WORK!  It's hard to know what they want, and what helps.  And you are right they don't give you any hints Lol!  Remember this, you are changing how he sleeps - he is going to be mad about it, and crying is how he will let you know.  He has no other way to tell you. 

Big huge hugs to you.  I hope some of this is helpful.  Be a detective and find what form of pat/shh works and go with it - who knows you may find something new that is settling to him and come back and share it with us!

Chin up - this is a tiny section of time in his babyhood, it'll pass and get better, I promise.
Love,
Zoey

[Metstark]

Thank you Zoey and Stacy! We were getting so discouraged after weeks of trying new things that weren't working. Yesterday and today we started feeding every three hours and it seems to be working out fine. DH and I have decided to get him up at 7 am for feed, try for at least 2-45 minute and 1-1.5 hr nap as goals during the day, bath at 7 then eat at 7:30, wind down in room, and in bed by at least 8. The nights have been getting easier over the past 3 days. Two nights ago it took us exactly 2hrs to get him to sleep with a fan on for white noise, black room, paci ( which I always remove or he spits out after he calms down), and my hand rubbing his belly. We used to put him in his bed asleep but then he stopped allowing that and began waking and crying shortly thereafter, so we decided to try just placing a hand on him (he really seems to cry louder with shh/pat ). He likes the hand rubbing his belly and only fusses for a about 20 seconds then doesn't make any noises just squirms until he falls asleep. The first night he did cry when we put him down, so DH picked him back up, settled him, then layed him back down, and I immediately whispered that it was "okay" in his ear, then placed my hand on his belly and he calmed and didn't cry again. Last night it only took us 45 min of doing the hand on the chest before he fell asleep and slept all night with only one night waking for feed. Tonight it only took 20 min!! We are very excited and hope that this is something that will continue to work for him. He only had 3=45 min naps today though so that still has to be worked on, but I feel that we could be on our way to making some progress. Thank you again for your support and suggestions, and we do agree that he does have all the characteristics of a spirited baby!

[Zoey]

Great to hear!  Keep up the good work and keep us posted!

Love,
Zoey