EARLY WIDE AWAKE CLUB!! WANT SUPPORT? JOIN US!

[shimzy]

Can I join the early wide awake club?  My daughter was the type to always require more sleep than usual. She was doing 12.5 hours at night straight through and 3-3.5 hours during the day.  That was one week ago.  For the past week she has been waking anywhere from 530am to 630am. Usual wake up time is 7-730am.  She wakes happy and ready to go. I have tried not going in.  She just plays in her crib the entire time.  I have tried pd.  It turns into a game.  I haven't tried feeding her because she is not acting hungry.  I just feed her at the usual 7am time and she doesn't even finish that bottle most times    This is her typical routine (should I be posting in the EASY forum?).  One other thing, summer is here and I know daylight is coming a lot sooner these days.  The room is lighter ... earlier.  Should I black out the windows at night? 

This WAS the routine (2.5 first A slot, 3 hrs second A slot, 3.5 hrs third A slot)
7am wake up & bottle 4-6oz
8am solids
930-11am nap
11am - wake up and bottle 6oz
12pm - solids
1:30/2pm-3/3:30pm
3/3:30pm wake up & bottle
5pm - solids (supper with family)
6:30/7pm - bedtime, bottle, massage jammies
sleeping by 6:30 most nights (sometimes 7pm if her nap was later)

This is what she has been forcing upon me 
5:30 wake up (we play jack in the box, she gets up I put her down sort of thing)
7am - I pull her out of bed & bottle 4-6 oz
8am solids
9am - 10am nap (1hr nap)
11am - bottle 6oz
12pm solids
1/1:15pm - 3pm nap (sometimes this only goes to 245pm sometimes 3pm)
3pm - bottle 6oz
5pm solids (supper with family)
6:30 bedtime, bottle, massage, jammies
I put her to bed at 6:30 because I don't want her overtired

Is she transitioning herself to a shorter am nap on her own?  Should I be putting to bed at 7pm anyway?

[andibig]

very possibly the light is waking her earlier.we have just put sashas blackout blinds back up

If she is not calling for you etc in the morning i wouldn't go into her.she'll just see PU/PD as a game.if shes playing in her cot leave her be.she may or may not go back to sleep but its a good habit for LOs to get into (being able to entertain themselves till proper wake up time!!)

If blacking out the windows doesn't work you may have to move bedtime very gradually later if she is sleeping all night.

[LisaM]

Hello everyone

Been putting this off for a looooooooong time now - no offense but didn't really want to join!!  However, I don't think I can kid myself any longer that dd will start sleeping longer in the mornings just yet.

She does go to bed really early (normally 6-6.30pm at latest) mainly because of the early starts and also not good naps during the day so cannot keep her up any later as often her last nap will finish between 2-3pm so 6pm is just about manageable, although not what I want for her as I know she is up for too long at this point (she will NOT take a late pm nap, believe me we have tried!!)

She usually wakes anytime between 4-5am but we still do get night wakings sometimes as well so our wake up time can vary.  Sometimes she does go back off to sleep but if she wakes at 5am after sleeping from 6pm I can't expect much more can I?  This hasn't happened all that often though, normally awake before 5 and then back to sleep if we are lucky.  However it does seem as though 5ish is her natural wake up as even if had a night waking and gone back off to sleep say about 4ish after being awake for an hour and half she still wakes at 5!!

Anyway, I suppose I just wondered if there is any hope!!  Do you think that if I ever manage to get her stay up later in the evenings (if naps ever improve and A times lengthen) she might sleep in later, or do you think the pattern will be ingrained? 

I do try to leave her as long as possible to play on her own but usually after 10-20 mins she has had enough and so I get her up.  I don't feed her til 6am as she isn't waking due to hunger at all.  She gets really tired though after only about 1.5 hrs up and then only takes a short nap - I have tried extending A time but still only a short nap and can be worse due to overtiredness at that point. 

She has been a bit of a problem sleeper almost from day 1 with really poor naps, continued night wakings and early starts so I am exhausted and she probably is too.  Does it sound like there is anything I can do to try and improve this or should I just accept the early starts and early bedtimes?

thanks

[texasmom]

Lisa,
That is early.  I know how you feel, as ours has had the same problem.  DS will usually just sleep b/w 10 and 11 hours at night, and he naps about 3+ hours (2 naps).  I have contemplated cutting his naps, but I hate waking him!  What we did is gradually move bedtime later.  Ours used to be 6:30.  Now it is 7:30.  So he sleeps 7:30-5:45/6:15.  After months and months of struggles, it has gotten better, but not hugely.  I am so jealous of those moms whose babies sleep 7-7.  Ahhh, that would be beautiful.  But DS is the most awesome baby, so I have nothing to complain about. 

I can't see if you have a ticker right now, so I'm not sure how old she is.  But I have a few thoughts, and I hope you don't mind me throwing them all out there to see if one resonates.  First of all, our early wakings started around 6 months.  I finally figured out that it started due to being overtired.  Night wakings for us due to that too.  Could that be it?  OR, if she is habitually waking at 5, have you considered wake to sleep?  Another thing that helped with us is to keep a consistent bedtime.  At 7 sharp, we start bedtime routine.  Also, what do you think of inching her bedtime later?  What I mean is start with 15 min later, and keep it at that time for 3-4 days.  Then do 15 more, etc... till you get to where you would like to be.  Another thought I had is that it seems waking at 5 is not giving her enough sleep, not the case now with our LO, but it used to be.  He'd wake early, and like yours, ready for sleep after 1.5.  Told me that he hadn't gotten enough, which is frustrating.  Why don't they just sleep longer?  Like I said, I'm just throwing thoughts out there, as I can't be sure exactly why she is waking early.  I know you said she's not hungry, but I wonder if you fed her if she'd go back to sleep?  Or is that just as bad of a situation to you?  Sometimes they are hungry enough not to go back to sleep, but not starving enough to cry.  IF you did feed her, and she went back to sleep, you could try some different things during the day to get her "tanked up" for the night. 

I wouldn't say give up b/c I thought it would never get better with us, and it has.  It kind of seems a bit developmental to me...  a lot of babies seem to struggle b/w 6 and 12 months with early wakings. 

Lastly, I found this on the website.  It might be helpful. 

https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=87109.0

Hope something has helped.  Have you posted a separate thread in General Sleep or Night Wakings?  More people read there and might be able to help too. 

Take care,
Brooke

[LisaM]

Thanks Brooke

Haven't posted anywhere else recently but did before under sleep and you were kind enough to help me out with some ideas then too!

I think its very possible that she wakes due to overtiredness but we are on a bit of a spiral really.  Early wake means she gets tired quick so not enough A time, normally followed by a short nap so then I try to stretch her out a bit for the next A time to try to make the day work out OK so she isn't having a massive A time in the pm before bedtime (mostly this isn't working any more, she used to extend her naps herself quite often if I left her for a while she would go back off but not anymore so I though maybe she needs more A time to be more tired).  As I mentioned in other post she is often up for about 4 hours before bedtime so pretty sure she is overtired but short of going back to 4 naps a day I don't know what else to try about that other than trying to get longer A time and of course better naps!

I do want to try moving bedtime later but when she is up from 2pm she gets so upset by 5.30 when I start her bath so will def give it a go if naps etc improve.


haven't tried W2S as its never been consistent enough, anytime between 4-5 although mostly 5ish now I suppose.  I haven't tried feeding her because I used to try that especially if it was 4ish but she would still take about and hr and half to go back off to sleep so didn't really help.


Do you think because she gets tired really quickly in the mornings that means she isn't getting enough sleep?  I sort of though that on the days when she has had 11 hrs straight with no NW that that is probably enough for her (she has never slept 12 hrs).

I never thought I would say this but if she would just sleep to 6am that would be great so I guess I need to try for a 7pm bedtime if I can.

I think if we could get better naps we might be able to sort it out.  Things did get better for a while there but are definitely going in the wrong direction again now, probably not helping that I am experimenting with the A times etc.  I know most babies of this age are now down to 2 naps - I just can't see us achieving that for a really long time, mind you they probably wake at a sane time of the morning like 7am!!

Anyway thanks for your reply I'll carry on working on naps and work towards a later bedtime.

[texasmom]

I'm sorry I didn't remember you.  I THOUGHT your name sounded familiar, but I couldn't remember if we had talked.  I have a terrible memory, especially since Collin has been born.   

Collin didn't go to 2 naps until maybe 7/8 months.  Don't worry. 

I agree about WTS - must be a consistent wake up of 5. 

We were definitely in your boat with the 4/5 wake ups, 1.5 hours awake, then back to sleep.  I can't be sure, but it seems if she can't stay up longer than 1.5, then she didn't get enough sleep.  I would think she could at least stay awake 2+ hours. 

Ok, what do you think of this?  Just to try it, what about putting her down earlier, just to break the overtired cycle?  I know you'd be afraid she'd wake earlier, but I did find that Collin would sleep longer if I put him down earlier.  He has gone to sleep at 5:30.     But once we got him well rested, I started slowly moving it later.  When I did it, I thought, what's one night?  He wakes so early anyhow. 

Is the routine you posted basically what she is doing? 

This is what she has been forcing upon me 
5:30 wake up (we play jack in the box, she gets up I put her down sort of thing)
7am - I pull her out of bed & bottle 4-6 oz
8am solids
9am - 10am nap (1hr nap)
11am - bottle 6oz
12pm solids
1/1:15pm - 3pm nap (sometimes this only goes to 245pm sometimes 3pm)
3pm - bottle 6oz
5pm solids (supper with family)
6:30 bedtime, bottle, massage, jammies
I put her to bed at 6:30 because I don't want her overtired

 

[LisaM]

Hi Brooke

Actually that routine was LisaW's.  This is ours (of course it changes almost daily but this is probably the most consistent lately)

Wake 5ish - leave her til she gets upset
Up by 5.30 - bottle at 6am
Nap 6.30/6.45 - 7.15/7.30 (normally only about 45 mins now)
Porridge when she gets up
Bottle as near to bedtime as possible really just so I can fit it in within this A time so about 9.20-9.30 depends how tired she seems
Nap 9.30/9.45 - 11.00/11.15 (if I am lucky we somtimes get about 1 hr 20 mins here, mostly though it 2 bits - she wakes, moans for a bit and then goes back off)
Lunch solids
Bottle - again near to bedtime as above
Nap 1.30/1.45 - 2.00/2.15 - hate this nap it is 99 x out of a 100 only 30 mins, no extending will help!!
Solids 4ish
Bath 5.30 - bottle 5.45ish and bed and mostly asleep by 6pm

Today was totally different as she woke at 4.25 and actually did go back off to sleep by 6am - took a bit of doing mind you but then she slept til 7.20 which was great for her, normally if she does go back off to sleep she only has another 30-45 min normal length nap for her.

I might try gong to bed to earlier but it will be a bit difficult as I have sort out dinner for DD1 around this time and you are right I would be scared she would wake earlier and have had 11 hours so I'd have to get her up but anything is worth a go at this point.

Thanks so much for giving it so much thought for me, I really do appreciate it.

[texasmom]

Oh my gosh!  You must think I'm a total ditz!!!!     Sorry! 

I can't believe how much her day looks like how Collin's used to (even the only sleeping 45 more min after finally going back to sleep). 

On that nap at 1:30ish - does she wake crying?  I ask b/c everytime Collin wakes crying, it is b/c he is overtired - and precisely at 30min.  So, if so, maybe shorter A time?   Or if she wakes happy, maybe she needs a longer A time.  Have I said all of this to you before?  I'm sorry if I have.  I've helped a lot of different moms whose babies wake early b/c that has been our problem, so it's an area I can help in.  I know I have said this to someone, but I don't know if it was you!  Forgive me. 

As I'm sure you know, that stretch from 2:15 to 6 has got to be taking it out of her, especially since she only slept 30min.  If Collin goes too long (still, at 11 months) it does him in for days. 

I bet an earlier would help tons. 

Let me know how it goes if you feel like it. 

Brooke

[LisaM]

She does often wake crying after naps and almost always at the afternoon one.  I have tried lots of different A times - I know most people say their lo's can go longer in the afternoons but I am always really careful about this nap as she has always struggled to go to sleep in the afternoons and for a while would not take an afternoon at all!! 

She is quite hard to read as doesn't yawn much apart from early in the morning, sometimes will rub her eyes but often that will be after only an hour of A time and we worked hard to increase her A time to 2 hours (I know it should be more than that by now) so do not want to go back to her only being up an hour at this age!  Normally only know she has had enough when she starts getting the hump, I guess sometimes its too late by then already tired.

When did things start to improve for you with Collin?  Sorry no ticker now - how old is he now?  Are you happy with the routine and sleep he has now?

I feel so useless this time around, I know that long before now with DD1 we had an actual routine and most days would be the same wake time and naps etc so  used to be able to plan when I would meet up with people.  With Grace its so hard as no 2 days are the same really and I can never be sure when I will be somewhere and also with quite short A time we don't get a lot of time to do anything as there is always a feed maybe also a bottle to fit in, plus we have dd1's routine to fit in around as well.  I do feel bad for Grace, as well as lack of sleep I don't do anything like as much with her as I did with Phoebe, I really hope that things get a bit easier at some point.  Sorry for the moan, have been awake since 4 today and 4.30 yesterday so am feeling very tired and ready for bed by 9pm at the latest!

Still at least she has had some much better naps today.  She woke at 4am and by 6am still not back to sleep but hardly any crying, so I fed her a bottle which she guzzled down then put her straight back to bed as had already been awake 2 hrs.  She had an hour at this point.  Next nap had 40 mins then woke and took 15 mins to go back off and then had 50 mins so pretty good and then this afternoon, wonders will never cease she had an hour!!!!!  Really didn't expect it as she took a while to go off and was grizzly and I thought I had blown it and got the times all wrong again.  So she only had 3 hrs to bedtime tonight which is just a little better for her.

Anyway, must go get dinner ready....thanks again

[texasmom]

So if you put her down earlier for that 2nd nap, it doesn't help?  I assume that's what you're saying.  I'm thinking the nap is short b/c of the general state of being overtired.   

Collin is very hard to read as far as tired signs go, too. 

Collin is 11 months.  I am happy with his routine because he is getting enough sleep.  He still doesn't sleep a LONG night, but he takes good naps.  I could possibly make the night longer, but I just don't want to mess with it.  I am used to getting up early - I did it when I worked, and I have been doing it for a long time with him.  Plus DH helps a lot.  Collin's days are not exactly the same.  Sometimes he naps 2+ hours at a time - when his night is shorter, but here is what he generally does:

6 Wake
9:15-10:45 Nap
2:15-4 Nap
7:30 Asleep

I guess things started to improve around 8 months.  Part of it was me accepting things, and part of it was improvement. 

It ALL started, though, because he got overtired, and it took me SO long to figure it out, and then it took me forever to do what it took to get him well rested.  FINALLY I learned that he needed a certain amount per day, and even now, if he has bad naps or a bad night, I put him to be early enough to get him enough sleep for the day.  For example, the other day, I put him down at 6:15ish, and he slept 6:30-6:15.  It never backfires on me.  Collin needs about 14 hours.  Average for 6 months is 14.5 hours, and 14 hours for 9 months.  For a while, I literally went by sleep hours for the day to determine his bedtime.  Then after he was well rested, I started putting him down at the same time every night.  That is when it really got better, but I couldn't do that until he was well rested b/c some days were bad with sleep, and a certain bedtime wasn't working.  Collin will sleep 10-11 hours usually, so an early bedtime as a general rule didn't work for us.  If I put him to bed at 6:30, and he was well rested, he might wake at 4:45/5.  7:30 pm is perfect to me b/c 6ish am isn't too early for me (like you said, I welcomed 6), and I enjoy a quiet evening. 

I absolutely know how you feel about the planning - not being able to do anything b/c of the mess in the routine.  I felt like such a prisoner in my house.  And exhausted as you are...  It was a very hard stretch of months. 

I really do think things can get better. 

I am happy to help in any way I can.

Brooke

[OliverRowland]

HI Brooke, it's been awhile!   I just wanted to share our recent events with you.  We had been having trouble with EW, NW, and trouble with afternoon naps.  We have begun shortening our am  naps which have helped a good deal.   A wise person told me that am naps can be an extension of the night time sleep....so, cutting them shorter may help with EW.   plus getting closer to 1 yr mark we start very slowly thinking about (in the back of my mind!  ) the 2-1 transition....
Sophie

[texasmom]

Hey Sophie,
Good to talk to you.   

How long is Oliver's morning nap?  What happened with the afternoon nap before and after you shortened the morning one? 

I have been keeping the 2-1 nap switch in the back of my mind too.   

Thanks for sharing that with me.  I will keep it in mind if things get bad for us too. 

I just found out I was pregnant!!  Yikes!  Not planned, but it's ok.  We're happy.  After a day of shock! 

Brooke

[OliverRowland]

Brooke, congratulations!!!!!  You will be an expert with the sleep thing by the time #2 comes!
ds was not sleeping well in the pm's (usually...sometimes he would only sleep 30min in am) and EW were creeping in again.  Now we are down to 45min am nap and his pm naps are great 90min-2hr).  EW were better (6-6:30).  But the past couple of days EW are reappearing...5:30am! :'  Will keep going as it has only been a 6-7 days since doing the 45 min am nap...hopefully things will sort out ....

[LisaM]

Brooke - congratulations, what great news!

I took your advice and went for an early night last night because Grace had been awake since 2pm and although 3.5 hrs up is still too much its better than 4 so was in bed at 5.20pm, quiet by 5.30pm so I thought Ok here goes, lets see what happens in the morning, HOWEVER, then she woke and start whinging a bit until 6pm so ended up asleep at her normal time!!  She then woke up at 3.20am Yikes!  Went in just to move her back down the end of the cot as she gets jammed up the top and can't move.  Anyway, then she went back off by herself at just after 4am but wake again at 4.55.  Unfortunately I didn't get back off so another early wake for me, my eyes feel like sand again today.  So far we've already had our first nap - 45 mins as usual so see how the next one goes, its gonna be another long day I think so will try again for early bedtime and see how it goes tonight.  Keep you posted. 

Once again congrats on your lovely news and thanks for your help

[texasmom]

Thanks!  I hope it is not as hard as everyone is saying it will be.  (2 under 2)

We had a rough night too.  Collin is teething - plus we're having food issues.  He didn't eat much formula yesterday.  So I don't know if it was the teething or hunger that woke him.  I am supposed to have weaned some of his bottles by now, but I am so afraid to! 

Sophie,
What is it with our LOs?  Early birds!!  Sometimes Collin still wakes at 5:45.  I still have the mindset, though, that anything past 5 is not the end of the world.  After those 3 and 4 wake ups!  I hope it gets better for you. 

Lisa,
I am surprised that she didn't go to sleep earlier.  Yes, let me know how things go. 

Brooke