difference between crying it out and learning to self soothe??

[MidloMom]

My son used to sleep in a swing.  On Fri, we started putting him down in the crib at night.  Prior to that, I had been napping him in the crib each day for about 2.5-3 weeks. 

The first night, he cried for about 40 minutes before falling asleep.  The next night he fell asleep while watching a crib soothing device (projects pictures on ceiling), no tears.  But he woke up about every 3 hours to eat.  Last night, he fell asleep on the bottle and we put him down but he woke up about 2 hours later crying.  And then about every 2 hours thereafter. 

Tonight, we will be sure to put him down "drowsy but awake."  And if he cries, how will I know if he's learning to self soothe?  He sleeps swaddled.  Should I unswaddle one arm to let him suck his hand or thumb?  He does that during the day.  We swaddle him though b/c he normally jerks himself awake or hits himself in the head with his arms.

Regarding the many wake-ups, I'm going to try to soothe him without feeding him and only feed him once or twice total in the middle of the night (this is hard b/c he goes right back to sleep if I feed him and I need to sleep)

How old is your child? 13 weeks
What’s his/her daily routine?  Naps at least every 2 hours
What’s nap routine?  Put in swing for a few minutes, bring upstairs, rock in chair and pat stomach to lullaby cd (while watching ceiling fan), swaddle, put down awake, switch cd to vacuum cleaner, hold pacifier in mouth for him for several minutes and sh, leave room, return if crying within 2 minutes, repeat until asleep
How long are naps?  generally 40-45 minutes.  Once in a blue moon, he'll surprise me with a 2 hour nap.
What's bedtime routine? Time?  Bath, sing and rock for 2 songs, suckle at breast (low supply), bottle, bed; between 8 and 830 (but sometimes he takes awhile to fall asleep, but usually asleep by 9)
Do you bottle or breastfed??  Breast before bottle but I would just call him bottle fed
How much? or how long?  eats about every 3 hours during the day, takes between 3-6 ounces.  However at night, he eats more
If breastfed.. one side or both?? (at each feed)
How many wakes per night?  Right now, every 2 hours
What’s your LO like when waking at night? How long is he/she up?  I generally give him a bottle and he goes back to sleep.  However, if he wakes really close to a previous feeding (less than 2 hours), then I'd try to get him to go back to sleep (either by letting him suckle or suck pacifier).  Also, in the early AM, I sometimes put him back in the swing
When you go to him/her is she fussing or crying? Or is it a mantra cry?  Crying, I usually get there within 2 minutes
What have you tried to settle??  Pacifier and rocking
What do you do for A time and how long is it?  I generally feed him right away, b/c one time I tried to get him to go down for 40 minutes with the pacifier (and swing) and he didn't and I just ended up feeding him anyway
Are there developmental issues such as teething or milestones?  No
Have you introduced cereal? Why, how much, and how many times a day? (for LO’s under 6 months)  No
Do they have a prop? If so what is it?  Eating and pacifier
Do they have a lovie?  There's a stuffed animal in his crib with him and a mirror and a crib soother on the side

[Colin Macs Mom]

I think that your LO hsa become dependant upon his various props and you'll need to end that. It's time to teach him to sleep independently as it doesn't sound like that's happening now. Have you tried pat/shhh?

If you could also post your full routine that would help too.

[MidloMom]

Sorry I have had trouble accessing this webpage for the past few days.

Our routine is very short.  First, we give him a bath.  Next we change him into pjs and bring him into his room. Ceiling fan is on.   We rock him and sing 2 songs.  Then I let him breast feed while we play a lullaby cd.  Then my husband feeds him his bottle (to the cd).  If he's still awake, while eating, I read him Guess How Much I Love You.  THen we swaddle him, which wakes him up a bit and put him down.  He's on his back in sleep positioner.  THere's a u shaped towel at his feet.  To one side of him is a mirror on the other is a stuffed animal.  We pat him, sh' him change the cd from lullaby to a vacuum cleaner, turn off the ceiling fan, and walk out.   The past 2 nights, that's what we've done and he's cried himself to sleep.  He wakes up about an hour later though.  Last night, we didn't respond when he cried and he went back to sleep within 5 minutes. 

Last night, he also woke up at 130 (at which point I fed him) and 430 (didn't feed him).  We let him cry and went in to sh and pat every 10 minutes.  He did not calm down.  At 520, we picked him up and walked him but he didn't go down.  At 540, we fed him 4 oz but he didn't go down.  At around 6, we moved him to the swing were he slept until 930.

For naps, I let him swing in the swing for a few minutes, take himinto the nursery, rock him to a lullaby cd, while I rub his belly (and he watches ceiling fan).  I swaddle him, put him down.  When he fusses, I put in pacifier and sh for a few minutes.  I stop, let him cry 2 minutes, repeat and repeat until he falls asleep.  Of late, he is becoming more dependent onthe paci to nap.

Tonight, I think we will do the same thing in the beginning but then feed him if he wakes around 4-5.  I think we'll just feed him a small bottle and try to reduce the bottle size over time??

[Colin Macs Mom]

I'm sorry, I meant your full routine from waking in the morning onwards. 

[MidloMom]

No problem.

I let him wake up when he wakes up (recently it seems he wakes around 8 AM).  I feed him.  He's usually not that hungry b/c he eats a bottle around 3-5 AM.  He eats anywhere from 1-4 ounces at 8.  Then he takes a nap about an hour after waking.  I put him in the swing for a few minutes to relax him, then I bring him up, rock him and rub his belly while he looks at the ceiling fan, swaddle him and put him down in his crib.  I turn on a cd of a vacuum cleaner.  He fusses, I put in the pacifier, he sucks, I sit down, he cries when it falls out, I put it back in, this repeats until he falls asleep.  Usually takes about 10-15 minutes for him to fall asleep.  He naps for about 35-50 minutes.  I feed him a bottle every 3 hours and he usually eats around 4-6 ounces.  Then he takes a second nap about 2 hours after he woke from his last nap.  Same nap routine.  He naps for about 35-50 minutes.  Then he gets a third nap about 2 hours after he woke from the second.  Depending on when he wakes up, he gets a fourth nap ending around 6 or 630.  Otherwise, he might nap in the infant seat while we're out.  He doesn't usually last from 4 pm until bedtime at 8 without some sleep.     

So he eats around 8, 11, 2, 5 and then 8.  He naps around 9 930, 12ish, 3ish, sometimes 5ish.

Thanks! 

[Colin Macs Mom]

He naps for about 35-50 minutes. 

This here is for sure your problem. He needs to be sleeping much longer than this. He's in a cycle of overtiredness that needs to be broken. Time to work on extending those naps! He's too young for PU/PD yet, but I think you should stick to shhh/pat and perhaps give wake to sleep a try.

[MidloMom]

My son is now 15 weeks and will be 16 weeks on Fri.
For the past week or so, he's been eating three bottles during the night and his total ounces per day have been around 35.  I strongly believe that he's eating out of comfort, as opposed to hunger. 

Last night, we had him sleep without the sleep positioners and with one arm free of the swaddle. He ate 5 oz at 740 and was in the crib by 750 and asleep by 8. He woke at 9:56 and I decided it was too early to feed him. He cried until 10:23 (I comforted him twice - was following the 5 minute rule but restarted the 5 minutes every time he stopped crying) and fell asleep. Then he didn't wake again (or at least I didn't hear him b/c the monitor was turned down lower than normal) until 230. I fed him 5 oz and he slept until 557. I fed him then b/c it was very close to 6 am and b/c I thought he might be hungry at least a little given that he ate so much less than normal. He ate 6 oz and went back to sleep until 7:05.

This was a fluke, I'm sure but I know that it's possible for him to go with just one bottle and one bottle at 6.

Tonight, I should not feed him until 2 or 230, correct? And then not feed him again until 6, right?

Any thoughts on if I should handle the 6 am feeding differently? When he woke at 7, I got him, sang, dressed him, etc but didn't feed him b/c I knew he wasn't hungry. I'm going to feed him whenever he wakes from his nap in the swing.

[Zoey]

Hello there!

I am confused about what you mean by "The 5 mins rule"?  Is this Crying it out?  If so, I strongly rec that you stop doing this.  5 mins to a 4 month old is a lifetime.  Here is a link about why CIO isn't reccomended:  https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=63839.0  Also know we do not support CIO or CC of any sort on this website.  There is always a gentler solution, we just have to find it.

Could you post his EASY routine (if he is on easy) For Instance:

Wake at 8am
E - 8am
A
S - 9am
bla bla bla

What is your goal for sleeping?  Obviously you are unhappy with how things are now, I just want to get a sense of what your expectations are for him.  Are there any medical problems such as reflux we should know about?  Have you read any of the BW books?  Have you ever used pat/shh?

Here are some links for you to read:
On soothing:  https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64836.0
Pat/shh:  https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=26671.0
Wake to sleep:  https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64107.0
Teaching Sleep:  https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=62025.0 - please scroll to the areas for your baby's age.

Have a read and let us know what you think!   And then we can come up with a non-CIO plan.
Zoey