I am so out of rope! Help with 3 year old...

[Nate'sMommy]

I am at my wits end with my 3 year old.  Since a week after he turned 2, Nate has been my sleep terrorist.  I did the gradual removal for MONTHS.  Really, once I got to the hallway, I was stuck.  He would get out of bed dozens of times, for hours.  No threats worked.  No reward programs (stickers, money, earn a treat) have worked.  His currency" (Dr. Phil) seems to change daily.
We have a rock solid bedtime routine.  We have tried to eliminate the nap to get him to go to sleep easier/quicker at night, but all I have is a volatile, exhausted child.  Somehow, somewhere, we ended up back in the room after months of the gradual removal, and now taking 1-1 1/2 hours to go to sleep and is up 1-3 times at night.  It's like having a newborn again. 
What do you do when you have another sleeping child in the next room and your child is freaking out (real or fake, he screams, cries, tantrums) to have me stay with him until he goes to sleep.  I have given in to get him to just shut up and not wake the baby or my husband, (who would not get up with either child which is why I can't have him wake up his brother).
I am exhausted.  I am so at the end of my rope.  I probably get 4-5 hours a night if I am lucky.  What do I do?  How can I start over with this stubborn child?  Is it possible that something is wrong with him?

[imsmum]

It sounds like Nate is old enough and smart enough to know that he can get what he wants at bedtime since he knows that you need him to be quiet.  we went through something similar with our now 5 yr old dd since she also has a 2 yr old younger sister.  We weren't dealing with the same problem of needing us to go to sleep though ( fortunately we got that one sorted out before her younger sister was born) but here's a few things that might help. 

You say Nate is a sleep terrorist--is he also a terror during the day? A couple of things--you may want to try reintroducing a short nap to cut down on that volatility--we limited our older dd's nap to 1 hour at that age--to see if that helps.  How does he react to discipline during the day?  When you tell him not to do things does he listen?  If so how do you get him to?  If he is not listening to you during the day you may want to work on that first  since he has to understand that when you say something you mean it.  Having said that a lot of people have found that nighttime battles lessen when the day is a bit calmer--ie.  picking your battles, and not constantly telling them not to do things, which I know is a challenge when you have 2 toddlers!

If he is fine during the day and it is just a nighttime problem is he doing it to spend more time with you?  Does he get some quality mummy time during the day?  It may make it easier to let you go at night if you have some  quality mummy time one on one--maybe when Ian is napping.

Basically, what we found to work was a combination of the old"carrot and stick".  We gave Ila  a treat and let her watch a Scooby Doo DVD in mummy and daddy's room which worked well because it was a treat but also the noise didn't travel so much from our room to my younger dd's.  We were very firm though that when we said it was bedtime a the end of the DVD.  On the few occasions she protested we ran her down to our basement where she could scream her head off without waking  her sister! 

Also we have implemented a "listen or lose" technique in our house which is a basic Alder type technique where you give them a choice and if they choose to misbehave they must accept the consequences.  It does not have to be the same currency each time--just one that will relate to whatever they are currently doing.

HTH

[Florencia]

You might also want to stop the reward system for a while to "detox" him from all the exchange equations he's been into lately ... you've got one smart cookie!

Instead, try to just lead him back to bed every time he goes out of it. First time you explain to him: it's night time, I need to rest, we all sleep in our own beds... whatever brief explanation you think he might get best. Following times you just redirect him, no eye contact, no words, just redirect him and make sure when you lay him back to show him you're not mad/upset (a brief pat, a quick I love you, a kiss, rubbing his forehead) say good night and out of the door you are. Of course, the first attempts will be likely to cause noise and tears from his side, so what would really could work is having Ian to sleep far from it. Maybe send him to grandma's or auntie's if there's a chance? this would just have to be for a couple of days... in this time Nate would get the message that you're no "prisioner" for his screams and being the smart cookie he is, he'll get the drill that you're not giving in and that's the end of the deal. Following nights will be easier as you stay consistant with it.

As Caroline (imsmum) mentions in her post, daytime discipline and chats have to be oriented to this approach. Make sure he gets that you mean business for particular behaviours (you might want to check the Discipline board to get especialized advice on how to deal with particular subjects). Talk to him about night time and how great it is that he gets to have his own room for sleep, make him part of a small "makeover" to his room, like changing sheets or choosing a new decorative item. Treat this as a special change, he's old enough to understand it.

Good luck i trully HTH and if not, please keep us posted so we can think of something else! Here's to (at least) 9 hour night's for mommy!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Nate'sMommy]

Thanks to both of you!  I have been soul searching and have come to realize a few things.  Yes, I have a  very smart, stubborn, persistent child.  That being said, my only consistency has been tons of inconsistency.  If I deviate 1 night, 1 time, then all is lost.  2 days ago I restarted gradual removal to try to get out of the room at least.  Since I know he totally gets it (gradual removal, that is), I am already in the hallway.  I plan to try to move farther down the hallway each night so he doesn't get stuck on me being in a certain spot (he seems to cling to that - "No MOM, you need to sit THERE, with THAT pillow," etc.)  I bought a white noise machine for Ian's room, and so far, he hasn't woken up after the nearly 2 hours of hysterical crying that has ensued.  Last night, he was up 2 times in the night, (11pm and 4:30am) looking for " a friend to come sleep with me."  It's so ridiculous!  We have never stayed in his room while he went to sleep until the past couple months when all this crap started.

I worry that part of what brought it on was marriage trouble daddy and I were having at the time - that is when he wanted someone to sleep with him and because of what was happening with DH and I, I did it.  Perhaps what started the whole thing initially was being pregnant with Ian.  Who knows?!

I like the concept of Listen or Lose.  I have started using that by day.  We do OK with discipline by day.  He is very active and gets in trouble often, but warnings, time outs, toy time outs seem to work.  My husband is pretty much gone 7am-10pm most days so it's all (breakfast, lunch, nap, dinner, bath, bed) up to me alone.  The kids don't really know anything different, so I don't think that is the cause.

I'll keep you posted.  Thanks for the support.  Just venting makes me feel a bit better already.
Kelli

[Nate'sMommy]

I can barely see straight this morning.  I have to tell you what happened.  Can ANYONE guide me as to what to do!!!

Nate didn't nap yesterday.  I held firm on staying in my hallway spot, and he actually didn't even ask me to come in the room.  But he did get out of bed a zillion times.  Sometimes happy, sometimes mad, sometimes to stall.  Mostly, to say he didn't want to nap.  Typical, unless I sleep with him.  After an hour and a half, and waking up his little brother, I declared nap time over and we went on with our day.  I was pretty mad that I had wasted so long of 'my time' and took a time out from him before I was able to go on with the day.

Bedtime was a non-nap day dream.  15 minutes or less and he was asleep.  Then the nightmare started.  He was up at 11:30pm wanting someone to sleep with him.  I spent the next 2 hours!!! in the hallway fighting him to stay in bed.  I did get angry.  Finally, at about 1:30 am he was asleep.  Up at 2am.  I let him lay on my bed and go to sleep.  Put him back in his bed.  Up at 3am....and so on.  I would say I got maybe 3 hours of sleep if that.  I have no idea how little sleep he got.  Each wake up was worse.  Hysteria.  Yes, he ended up in my bed in the end.  I have no idea how or when. 

Is this my main problem?  That by the middle of the night, I am so tired I can't do the hall thing all night?  I am seriously thinking of calling a professional - what 3 year old wakes up more than a newborn baby?  Please, help!

[mcruari]

Oh Kelli, that sounds so bad!! I know I'm not good at being consistent at night - in fact even during the day sometimes
I know this is going to sound like taking a leap backwards, but would you consider letting him sleep in your room? Would you have the space to put a 'Ready Bed' or a put-you-up bed in? Or maybe he's still in a cot like my DD?
If he's in a cot, maybe you could transition to a bed and make a big thing out of it.
Anyway, back to sleeping in your room. You could try to strike a deal with him, seeing as he's a bright spark. You could say "OK Nate, mummy will let you sleep all night long in mummy & daddy's room so that you have not only 1 but 2 mates to sleep with you. You ave your own special bed in our room and you can fall asleep there and mummy & daddy will be there for you if oyu wake up" or something to that effect. You must make it clear that he will be sleeping in his own bed, only in your room and at no point must he come into your bed. This, in theory, should allow him to get into a routine of actually sleeping all night long (and giving you a rest ) Once a routine is established, you could then start praising and telling him that he has been so good, etc, etc. and convince him that he no longer needs mummy&daddy as he has learnt how to sleep all night long on his own. At this point you could move him back to his room with something new (bedsheets, cuddly toy, bedside light) and stay with him for a few minutes praising him and reminding him just how good he is.

Please let us know how things go, whatever you do. At this stage I think I'd prefer to get a good night's sleep rather than battle it through the night with him. Just do what is good for you at the moment and try to get some rest

[Florencia]

Hi Kelli!

I'm so sad for you. I can totally empathize with that feeling of desperation and the need to puch sonmething (or someone ) in the middle of the night. I just can't understand why God made sleep such a needed feature for us human beings and gave us little critters that wake us and prevent us from sleeping

Now, back to your case... i agree with Sinead about doing what you think will preserve your sanity for longer. For what you describe, i think you were handling it perfectly fine by holding outside the room (hey, that was a step forward, that he didn't freak out for not getting mom inside the room... so he got THAT one message)... naptime off, normal again. He's old enough to set his resistance at harder and longer levels. What I think can set any sleep training off is the giving up in the middle of the night. Don't get me wrong, im not trying to lecture or blame you for anything. Like I said, I totally get your frustration and lack of strenght to deal with hours of screams in the middle of the night. We all have a break point where we say, that's it, i can't take any more of this. Nate knows this (not that he wakes on purpose) but he somehow has got the dynamics: if i'm loud enough, ill get what i want. By giving in, all you do is set his levels on higher marks.

I see you have 2 choices here, one is doing what Sinnead suggested and the other one is to tackle this just as you were doing but without giving up. That's why I suggested yesterday to have Ian to spend a couple of nights out. That would release you of a big pressure factor (take care of his sleep) and will help you focus on Nate. Starting the sleep training with a "sleep kamp mate" (be it your husband, a friend or anyone who's willing to be up with and for you for 3 nights in a row) will also be a life saver. You're just to tired and worn up to do this alone.

It is perfectly normal to feel exhausted and just want to give up. But you have to stay focused on the main goal, you will be helping your child to relax and sleep better for you or for anyone in case you're not there.

Let us know what you think will suit you best. It is a hard work and you'll need all the help and support you can get!!!we'll be here for you whatever you decide. Good luck and crossing fingers for tonight!

[Aarismom]

I have to agree that you need to do what is best to keep the house sane...if he needs to sleep in your room on a small cot or something, do it for now. Just help him to understand that it isn't permanant. I really hope things start to turn around soon!!

The psychologist part of me wants to tell you that he's probably holding residual feelings about what happened between you and your husband. He sounds like he's a really smart cookie...perhaps seeing a child psychologist will help? Or even family therapy? Maybe seeing daddy more often would help, if it's even possible? Even if things are better between you and your husband, unless he sees it, and really feels that sense of security that everything is ok between mommy and daddy, he may still feel insecure. This can affect night behvior as well as day behavior. Any tension in the house between any members of the household, or any new permanent changes (such as the arrival of a new baby) can really affect a 3 year old. They're old enough to see and feel what's going on in the house--but they're not old enough to really understand the problems that people who love each other can face. They're just beginning to learn about their emotions and the emotions of others.

Just throwing out some ideas here...I think you're doing the best you can. My gut tells me that you've been struggling with this so long, perhaps you need to tackle the problem from a different angle and see if that helps.

*HUGS*
Sonya =P

[Katet]

Just reading through it all, I agree with the PP, he probably has a reason why he feels he needs you there & also as you said you've been inconsistent, so he knows he just has to try harder to get what he needs.

I have a 3yo ( well in 3 days he will be  )... what we do A LOT now is ask him what he needs... so say he the previous night he stalled on bedtime, we we might say "ok it is almost time for bed, what do you need to do before you go to bed". Then we will respect it & do puzzles, play trains etc for a time, then we start the bedtime routine at the point the kitchen timer goes off... it normally only takes 2 days & we are back on course.
So maybe you could try asking him, what he needs to stay in his bed etc... then if he says stay in his room with him, respect his wishes for a week, but at say day 5, talk about the "step" you are going to take to get to the point you want & then do that & then repeat, until you get from his need to your need... does that make sense. I find making my ds part of the solution actually makes it much easier to reach a positive outcome.

Two things that have also worked REALLY well for us is a lamp on a timer that comes on at the time he can get out of bed & wake us up (on those rare occasions ds#1 hasn't already  ) & the second is when (unknown to him) he has achieved a "goal" we give him a "treat", eg for us it was not calling out to find his lovey... so when he didn't do that one night, we told him we would go out & buy a toy train (thomas), there have been other things, but they aren't things we have told him we are aiming for but things that we hope he then learns "I did good, so I will repeat" we will also ring up grandparents & tell them how excited we were & really pump up how grown up he is for doing what he did & it has worked really well.