Bedtime is becoming a nightmare

[rach]

Charlotte has always had a good bedtime routine which consisted of a bath, cup of milk and story, then onto the potty/toilet, clean her teeth and then into bed.  I've been able to leave the room with her wide awake for as long as I can remember.  She's always settled herself down, sometimes chatting to herself or her toys before drifting off.

Now that Cameron has arrived it is somewhat different, but I'm really struggling to get her back on track and I could do with some help.

We still start our bedtime routine off with a bath, I now bath Cameron at the same time as Charlotte, him in the baby bath, Charlotte in the big bath where she can watch what is going on and be involved.  We have a sing-song, chat about the day etc.  While I'm bathing Cameron and getting him into his jammies Charlotte can play in the bath, then when I've finished sorting Cameron, I pop him into the crib where I know he's safe and then I wash Charlotte's hair. 

After their baths, we all go downstairs and while I feed Cameron, Charlotte has her cup of milk and we all read a story together.  Afterwards Cameron is put into the travel cot, (which is set up as a crib downstairs), where he settles down to sleep.  Charlotte and I go upstairs to the bathroom, where she sits on the toilet to do her business and then she washes her hands and then cleans her teeth.

This is when the problems start.  We get, 'I want a drink of water', so when I say that I'll go and get her a drink and bring it up while she gets into bed, we have a huge tantrum - 'I want to go downstairs'.  If I put her into her bed she gets up and gets really angry, crying and shouting, stamping her feet etc.  If I sit quietly with her, she'll eventually quieten down but as soon as I move, we're back to square 1.  I've tried saying that I need to go and sort some washing out, but as soon as I'm done I'll come back and check on her, but that doesn't work.  We have another meltdown and she screams that she wants mummy.  If DH goes near her then he gets the same, that she wants me, although if he sticks with her he does seem to have more success than me because she calms down and accepts that its bedtime quicker with him than me - or that could be that she's so exhausted.

It is getting beyond a joke, it is past 10pm by the time she eventually falls asleep, sometimes as late as 11pm.  She is awake at 7/7.30am most mornings and will sometimes (not always) have a nap for about an hour.  This can sometimes be later than I would like, meaning that she is waking up for her tea, so then of course she isn't tired at bedtime, so if she hasn't napped by 3, I try to keep her going so that she doesn't fall asleep and is tired at bedtime - doesn't always work.

I know that its all change and that she's still getting used to Cameron being around.  I'm thinking of altering our routine after the bath so that Cameron has his feed upstairs straight after the bath and then I put him down in his crib upstairs to sleep.  I will then continue as before with Charlotte going downstairs for her story and milk and then toilet/teeth bed as usual.  I hoping that as she sees Cameron is upstairs to sleep that she won't feel she is missing out on anything and that should help her to settle.

However, any suggestions of what you think I can do to get back on track would be gratefully received.  I'm dreading tonight, (well I dread every bedtime at the moment), but this one in particular - I'm on my own as DH is out for the night (staying out overnight) and I'm not sure how I'm going to cope/handle this one on my own.

Thanks for reading, sorry it is such a long post!

[mari]

Have you tried telling her story in bed with her.  Nathan insisted on this when Alex was born.  It was (and still is) our little bit of time together. Also, there was no way that he was going to bed after Alex as he was a big boy and she was a baby and therefore should go to bed after him so I had to work a nap around 7ish for Alex so that I could settle Nathan and keep our bedtime routine in tact, This nap she took in her crib in our room as if she was ready for bed.  Obviously, new born she had another feed to take but at least he thought that she was in bed so it was ok for him to go too.

Good luck, it's keeping them in their beds I am still struggling with!

[Johanne]

Does Cameron go down to sleep pretty well? I was just thinking that you could do the milk and story downstairs all together and then instead of putting Cameron in his crib downstairs you could put him in it upstairs and then put Charlotte to bed. Charlotte may feel she is missing out because Cameron is downstairs - this way she might see that both of them are going to bed and Cameron isn't getting any extra attention.

Jo

[rach]

This is what i'm thinking, that she feels she's missing out on something.  I'm going to try putting him to sleep upstairs tonight as he settles fairly well.  If Charlotte see's him in bed, hopefully, fingers crossed she'll settle a little better then.  I'll try the story in bed bit too see if that helps.

Thanks for the suggestions.  I just hope she doesn't have a meltdown when Cameron is upstairs and then wake him up! 

DH has just told me that he is leaving in about an hour as he's out for tea too, so he isn't here to help with any of the bedtime routine!  Great! 

Wish me luck!

[mari]

I think that she is after some time alone with you and if you can get Cameron to bed then try explaining to her that you need to be really quiet so as not to wake him and you can have some special time together.  This always works with Nathan, bedtime is an almost silent ritual as he knows that if alex wakes, she spoils it all for him! 'We don't want that girl messing up our story do we' he says.!
Hopefully this will stop any thoughts of a meltdown.  I hope all goes well as bedtime is such a nice time if it's done calmly.

[Johanne]

you'll probably do better than you think! maybe speak to Charlotte before bed and explain your plan to get cameron to bed so you and her can have some special girl time together - get her on your side so to speak? Sorry Alex on me again - hard to type - mr no naps today! 

Jo

[rach]

Well it is 7.45pm and i've been downstairs for about 10 minutes, both children fast asleep 

It wasn't plain sailing, but I didn't expect it to be.  I explained to Charlotte what we were going to do, bath, milk, then we'd put Cameron to bed, toilet/teeth, then mummy and Charlotte would have some quiet time together and read a story and then bed.

Well it all went really well, except after her story, she wanted another, but we'd agreed just one story, so then she said that she wanted a drink, well i'd already taken a drink of water upstairs for her, so all of a sudden she wanted to come downstairs with me to 'sit quietly'  .  We had a few tears then when I said no, so I reminded her that Cameron was fast asleep and in bed and that it was time for her to go to sleep too. 

I stayed with her while she settled herself down, I didn't engage in any conversations with her and she soon quietened down.  I waited while she fell asleep, I think i'm going to have to gradually leave the room, do it nice and slowly with her to get her back on track.

So, I'm really pleased, especially as DH isn't here.  So, fingers crossed she'll have a good night.  She didn't have a nap today so I knew that she was tired.  Now all i've got to do is get upstairs to feed Cameron without waking Charlotte! 

We'll see how it goes!  I'll keep you posted!

[annas mum]

Hi Rachel
     Think you did an absolutely storming job - good on ya girl!! You are doing as we are  - when we were having similar issues our HV said the same about putting Nathan to bed before Anna so she didn't think she was missing out and it made all the difference. And Well Done for doing it by yourself  - always more difficult. You are right in that Charlotte is still getting used to her baby brother (who by the way is gorgeous - lovely avatar!! ) - Anna was fine with everything until week2 then all hell broke loose for about a week or 2 , then it seemed to settle down again. Of course now he's mobile and wanting her toys its a whole different matter again!

(((((((((((((((Hugs))))))))))))))))

Clare

Mum to Anna 2yrs 8 months and Nathan 11 months

[rach]

Thanks Clare.  Its strange because it wasn't until about the 2nd week that things went down-hill with us too.  I have to admit that because I didn't want to rock the boat too much, I was scared of her feeling left out, so I did give in with her and let her come downstairs, but not anymore.  I'm going to stick with this, and I know that it won't last forever.

It is so nice having the evening to myself.  I've been up to feed Cameron, had to do a full change on him because his nappy had leaked!    Both of them are fast asleep! 

[~Faye~]

Hi Rachel,

Just wanted to send you big HUGS. You are doing an amazing job with your lovely babies, you're great

Faye

[rach]

  Faye

I'm going to have to have a think about some activities to do with Charlotte to make the most of mummy/Charlotte time.  I'll check out the activity board I think.  If I can make our daytimes more special then that should all help too.

[maxysmum]

Well done, sounds like your just storming through this being a mum of 2 lark! enjoy your evening

Love your avatar btw Cameron is just gorgeous! as of course is charlotte but I already knew that  

[mari]

Well done Rachel and a big hug for Charlotte for being a big girl. (and one for Cameron because he deserves one too)

[~Faye~]

Rachel, you are making me think I could do 2 kids, you really are

Faye

[rach]

Faye, if I can do it, you definitely can! 

[Maeve]

We had a similar thing, although a smaller age gap (20 months). I did almost exactly as you are doing, but a very good sleeper, who went very happily into his cot every night was crying, asking for drinks etc. And waking in the night. Basically I tried to keep his routine intact, and effectively it was the same as yours except that they were both put to sleep upstairs. Things settled down with persistence. I did give him  more hugs etc. in thr night, when he asked, because I thought he must need the reassurance but there came a time when he seemed to be taking the p**s and I got tougher and it's fine now.  And I am often on my own, so I had to have a routine I could do on my own. Now if only I could get him to stop takin  off his nappy at night!

[mari]

We had a similar thing, although a smaller age gap (20 months). I did almost exactly as you are doing, but a very good sleeper, who went very happily into his cot every night was crying, asking for drinks etc. And waking in the night. Basically I tried to keep his routine intact, and effectively it was the same as yours except that they were both put to sleep upstairs. Things settled down with persistence. I did give him  more hugs etc. in thr night, when he asked, because I thought he must need the reassurance but there came a time when he seemed to be taking the p**s and I got tougher and it's fine now.  And I am often on my own, so I had to have a routine I could do on my own.

Now if only I could get him to stop takin  off his nappy at night!

[rach]

Well she had a fantastic night!!!! 

She slept until 7.30 and was so pleased with herself!!!  Fingers crossed we can continue tonight!

[rach]

Well another good night.  Not as early as i'd have liked (I've just come downstairs from tucking them in - 8.30pm).  Its funny, DH is here and yet we're later than normal in getting them to bed  .

Tonight we did exactly the same as last night.  We read a story in bed, just Mummy and Charlotte and then I told her that it was time to settle down.  She wanted to have a look through her book by herself and was perfectly happy for me to go downstairs and leave her to settle herself down to sleep, which is exactly what she's always did before Cameron came along, so i'm happy!

Tomorrow we'll just have to be a little more organised to get them into bed by 7.30/8 at the latest.

But yay yay yay!!!!  I'm happy!  (Please let it continue!)

[annas mum]

  Well Done Charlotte
-and good jub mum!!!

Clare

Mum to Anna 2yrs 8 months and Nathan 11 months

[~Faye~]

HOORAH Rachel And well done Charlotte That is great.

I can do this, I can do this, I can do this!!!!

Faye

[mari]

Sorry About my previous post, I don't know what's been happening tonight.  I wanted to say to Maeve, what about trying pull ups instead of nappies.  Perhaps he won't be able to figure them out in the niht time to pull them off. 
Glad things are going well for you Rachel

[rach]

She woke briefly, I found her wandering about on the landing, but I took her back into her room and she settled right down - what a star! 

[~Faye~]

She is great. Good for her. Give her a big  for me, in the morning of course

Faye

[mari]

She is a good girl Rachel, perhaps she could meet my lo's and teach them a thing or two.  Nathan feels a little left out sometimes though.  Nathan often slept in my bed but Alex never until recently we have had so many bad nights that I get her in in the early hours just for some sleep.  Nathan still climbs in to bed with me (Gareth works away) but I am usually sleeping with my arms around Alex and he gets really jealous and strops about it.  It's a nightmare, I try so hard to please them both but I need my sleep so much!  On that not, I'm off to bed now, I am so late as I had a pile of ironing to do, now it's done I can rest.  (famous last words!!!)

[Maeve]

Hi Mari,
We are using pull ups. I've even tried different types, and pampers are better but he can still do it. He takes off the nappy so he can pee in the cot! Seems not having a nappy by day has gone to his head. Even with a vest fastened underneath...same thing! I use cloth nappies as well, and one night I put a wrap from a cloth nappy around him, so I might have to resort to that again!

[maxysmum]

one night I put a wrap from a cloth nappy around him, so I might have to resort to that again!

If that worked maybe you could try with some washable swimming pants as these look like real pants.

Well done Charlotte what a good girl she is!!!

[mari]

That's a nightmare Maeve.  When Nathan was still training and we were getting the odd wet nights I found the Pampers Bed liners really useful, but they are expensive to use every night.  Maybe you could ask if those sheets that they use in the hospitals are available on prescription and just put those under him.  Do you know the ones I mean, they used a lot of them during Labour but not sure what they are called, but should save the mattess a bit.  I bet he will be out of nappies for you soon.

[maxysmum]

That's a nightmare Maeve. When Nathan was still training and we were getting the odd wet nights I found the Pampers Bed liners really useful, but they are expensive to use every night. Maybe you could ask if those sheets that they use in the hospitals are available on prescription and just put those under him. Do you know the ones I mean, they used a lot of them during Labour but not sure what they are called, but should save the mattess a bit. I bet he will be out of nappies for you soon.

They are called inko pads

[Maeve]

Thanks Steph and Mari, might try the swim napppies. We have those pampers things all right, but yeah expensive. We've had so many accidents he's got a double bed sheet on his cot tonight! I don't know if I could bear to look at those labour thingies!

[mari]

Thanks Steph and Mari, might try the swim napppies. We have those pampers things all right, but yeah expensive. We've had so many accidents he's got a double bed sheet on his cot tonight!

I don't know if I could bear to look at those labour thingies!

Go on, bring back all those fab  memories 

[rach]

Well just as we've sorted out the bedtime issue, we have another.  Charlotte has started to come into our room and into our bed early in the morning, say about 5 ish.  At first I thought it was later than this, but that is only when i'd woken up and noticed she was there, but last night she woke me as she climbed in.

So how do I handle this, I don't want her to feel as though i'm shutting her out when Cameron sleeps in our room (in the crib), but it does affect my sleep because she seems to want to sleep on my side of the bed and I end up clinging on for dear life so that I don't fall out.  Also, I could do without a tantrum at that time in the morning, especially when Cameron is asleep.  Any suggestions?

[Johanne]

Could you talk to her about it today - in the daytime when Cameron is awake. Maybe try talking to her about how she is a big girl and how she has her own room and knows how to sleep there properly, but when she was a baby she slept in your room too. We explained to DS1 before Alex was born that babies have to sleep with their parents until they are 6 months old and that was what the Health Visitor said. We explained it was something to do with their breathing (which is as it was explained to me), so it was important but Alex would have his own room after 6 months. We also explained that that is what happened when DS1 was a baby. I know DS1 is older and he takes "scientific" explanations on board well, but I've always believed in giving him real answers an information anyway from a young age, so it might work with Charlotte. HTH! 

[rach]

Its definitely worth a try!  Thanks Jo 

[annas mum]

OOH OOH Were going through this too!!! What has helped a bit is we have bought one of those child lamps  - hers has winnie the pooh on it as that is her current favourite- and put it on a plug timer in her room . We have said that when the light comes on it is awake time, if the lights not on then she must stay in her bed or read a book until it comes on as is still night night time - its been a bit hit and miss , but things are definately starting to improve and she now gets really excited to come in and tell us when the lights on, and we're past 6am now which is much more do-able !!

HTH

Clare

Mum to Anna 2yrs 8 months and Nathan 11 months

[rach]

I like that idea Clare, thanks.  That is definitely worth a try.

Tonight we were back to where we started with bedtime, complete paddy about going to bed, so in the end I'm sorry to say, she came downstairs and sat quietly and fell asleep on the sofa.  I didn't know what else to do with Cameron wanting to be fed and screaming his head off because I was upstairs trying to sort Charlotte out.  Hey ho - hopefully things will improve again.  I know what the problem was - she fell asleep late on in the afternoon - always asking for trouble when that happens.

[mari]

At least you know what the problem is and you can try to avoid it in the future.  I am still struggling with Alex.  She went to bed no probs, kiss night night after story and she lay in her cot for about half an hour, quite happily until she fell asleep at 8pm.  She woke at 4.30am and we have been up ever since. urrgh

[Maeve]

OH MY GOD!

[Johanne]

And i complained cos I was up for a feed at 6 

Jo

[rach]

Yeah that's a bit early!

[clairewillsmum]

hi rachel, the thing with kids is that you think you've cracked one problem and then another comes along  ! I have 2 sons, Will is just over 3 and a half and Oliver is 7 months. It definitely helps bathing both together, then letting Will play in his room whilst I put Oli to bed. Then me & Will go downstairs together, have a bit of supper, stories i.e. our special time and then go to bed at half seven. The problem I have is actually getting Will to stay in bed and go to sleep! He loves to look out the window and or put the light on and walk around his room, looking at toys and books etc. he doesn't really have a daytime sleep anymore but whether he does or he doesn't, doesn't really seem to affect how quick he goes to sleep. He doesn't want a nightlight, has blackout linings, the room is dark etc. Any suggestions? At the mo we are resorting to taking a toy away each time we have to go up after 2 initial warnings. doesn't seem to bother him greatly the next day when he can't play with it!

[rach]

Hi Claire

It is so annoying when they don't seem bothered by having things confiscated isn't it!  Charlotte didn't want to get dressed this morning and she knows that later on we're going to the park, so when I said that if she didn't get dressed she wouldn't be able to go to the park, she said no park! 

Have you tried a reward system - something like a sticker chart.  Turn the bedtime issue round and rather than it being negative (removing toys), try something positive.  If you go to bed like a good boy when mummy and daddy say, you get a sticker.  Then if he's good throughout the week, at the weekend he gets a treat of his choice as a reward for going to bed so well - a trip to the park, feeding the ducks etc.

I'm sure other people will post with lots of ideas, people are great here!

Good luck!  Keep us posted!

***

Last night went really well!  Not only did she go to bed well, but we had a chat and talked about her staying in her bed all night.  She came into our room at 9 o'clock this morning!  She had a big cuddle with mummy and daddy and was so proud of herself!

[~Faye~]

WELL DONE CHARLOTTE
That is great news Rach. Good for her.

{{{HUGS}}} to Charlotte, and you of course

Faye

[mari]

I did a reward system with Nathan and he had to do 10 night (in a row) in his bed and after a few breaks, then 5 clear nights, He was looking forward to putting his sticker on the chart in the morning.  He got to choose a gift fom the Argos Catalogue (within reason)  and he is so good now.  I still get him a little gift now for staying in his bed all night sometimes, just to show that he's appreciated, I think he finds it hard as he always used to come in before Alex was born and although she's 18months now and he's 5 he still needs a cuddle and misses being in with me.  Sometimes, when he lapses I say 'what happened last night then, why did you need to come in my bed' and he says, 'I was worried that you might be lonely (DH works away) and needed a cuddle'  He's so sweet, how could I send him back to bed?

[rach]

Awwww bless him - what a cutie 

[rach]

Not a good night tonight 

She's still awake! 

[mari]

Sorry Rachel, I hope she settles for you soon. 
Guess what, Alex slept 8pm until 6am last night.  It was probably a fluke.  Just finished the ironing, having a well earned glass of lager and then I'm off to bed as I'm bracing myself for a long night, I don't expect two in a row!
Last night, I woke at 5am and wondered if she was alright as I hadn't heard from her, I nearly went in to check.  Then got my sensible head on and told myself not to be so stupid and go back to sleep so I did.

[rach]

Well she's finally gone to bed - not quite asleep but she had to say that she wanted to go to bed herself - when we said bed - major paddy and I just didn't have the energy to argue with her. 

Tomorrow is another day! 

Hope you have a good night Mari!