Feeding and sleeping issues

[Isabella's Mummy (Lilab4)]

Hello!!!

I apologise in advance for the length of this post!!! It is to do with eating and sleeping, so I wasn't sure where to put it!

Isabella is 16 weeks old, I breast fed in the beginning and the first couple of weeks were actually easier than I had anticipated. She fell alsomost immediately into a 2-4 hour eating routine and slept most of the rest of the day. It all went wrong at 2.5 weeks when I suffered a post partum hemorrhage and we had to go back into hospital for 5 days. Feeding was difficult as I had tubes going into me on both sides, midwives were having to latch her on and I couldn't get off of the bed to comfort her. (She would only calm down if we walked with her and is still a little like this now!). Anyway, she became very unsettled and seemed to struggle a lot with feeding, often wanting to be fed hourly during the day. She would only nap for 10 minutes at a time and I didn't feel I could work on this when I never knew if she was hungry or not. I continued to breast feed until 8 weeks, but after discussion with my HV we decided to switch to the bottle. At the same time as this we decided to take her to see a cranial osteopath (it wasn't an easy birth and she found it difficult to turn her head to the right). We don't know whether it was the osteopath, the bottle or a combination of both, but things improved quickly. She began to go longer between feeds and take 40 minute naps.

I was happy that things had got better, but we still need to do some work! These are the problems I have:

1 - She now takes 2 - 3 oz in the first sitting and it takes me up to an hour to get her to take between 5 and 6 oz. I have to keep trying giving her 10 minute breaks or walking around with her. - Should I be doing this or leaving it at trying twice? By doing it it means that we get around a 2 hour gap between feeds, but I don't want to encourage her to think this is the way we feed. I tried a size 3 teat today, but it was clearly too fast for her.

2 - Her naps are only around 40 minutes each and she often starts yawning almost as soon as she is up! I have tried trying to get her back to sleep, but she just doesn't want to know. Even if we go out in the car after a nap (which usually sends her to sleep) she will still stay awake and yawn!! This creates a further problem in that she is the really tired and ready to sleep just before her next feed. This makes feeding even more difficult. I thought about using PU/PD, but I don't really see it will work as she is quite happy to lie and play in her cot for 20 minutes or so after she wakes. Yesterday and the day before that she slept for over 1.5 hours for her first nap, I got excited, but then she went back to 40 minutes today!!

Her short naps don't cause too much of a problem until late afternoon, then she is hard work as you know she is very tired and it is really difficult to get her of to sleep, even for a cat nap. I try to bath her at 6.30pm and she has her last feed at 7pm, but some days (like today), she has to go earlier and she was asleep by 6.15 pm. We are very lucky in that she goes from 6/7pm until at least 3-4am and half the week she goes through until 7am!! I am a bit scared to try new things in the day in case it upsets our night!!!

I can try to put down a routine, but it is difficult as her erratic sleeping means we don't really have one!!

7am - Activity (not ready for feed)
7.30 Feed (this goes on til 8.30 mixed in with activity time and then wind down)
8.15 am - We go to her room to start to get her off to sleep
8.30 - 40 minutes sleep (sometime she cries for more food after we've put her down, she rarely falls asleep on the bottle but is often sleepy when we put her down).

9.10 - Try to get her back to sleep, but it doesn't work (we get lots of smiles and laughing even if we avoid eye contact) so we end up taking her downstairs for A, where she begins to yawn!! We then struggle to keep her going til 10 for her next feed and often have to use a dummy.
10.00 feed (again for up to an hour)
10.30/11.00 - 40 minute nap if we are lucky!!

11.40 - same problems as before
1.00 Feed (as before)
2.00 ish - 40 minute nap if we are lucky

2.40 - same problems as before
4/4.30 Feed (as before)

We really struggle to get her to nap here, usually take her for a walk, but she seldom falls asleep.

6.30 Bath
7.00 Feed
7.30 ish Sleep

Sometimes feed between 3 and 4.

Sorry that was so long, I will try not to write so much in future. Can anyone help??

Thanks in advance x

[* Paula *]

With regards to the size of the teats.  If the next stage up is too fast - have you tried making an extra hole in the teats that you are using?

Do you do a dreamfeed?  If you do a dreamfeed around 10:00pm - this may eliminate the early morning feed.

[Isabella's Mummy (Lilab4)]

Thank you all so much for your replies.

Yes, I have considered moving her to a 4 hour EASY, but when I have tried to keep her awake longer she has become very difficult to settle. I also tried making wind down longer yesterday taking care not to stimulate her after the first 1.25 hours, but she just fell asleep on my lap! Even when we have let her go longer she still only does 40 minutes max. There is then no way she can wait 4 hours for her next feed. The other problem is knowing how long she has been awake, because she lies awake in her cot without making much noise, I'm not sure how long she's already been up when I wake.

Also, with regards to the df, we did try it for a few weeks, but she would only take an oz or 2 so we stopped doing it. Do you think we should try again? To be honest though she is sleeping a 12hr stretch a lot of nights already. I haven't thought about making another hole in the teat, what would you suggest using to do it?

The other thing to note is that even on the first feed in the morning she has to have her bottle in small portions. What she does is odd though, she kind of straightens out her whole body and turns her head from the bottle. The strange thing though is that if you re offer the bottle she takes it has a few sucks and does the same again. If you take the bottle away she sometimes cries and other times she is ok. It's like she wants it, but it hurts her or someting. I assumed the problem is wind, but she doesn't always bring any up and the 10 minutes later she will take another 1 -2 oz.

Right, I woke up at 6.40 and I could hear her talking quietly to herself so I got her up, we came downstairs and she has had 6oz over 3 tries (that is good going!), she started yawning and making squeaky noises at 8.15 so I took her up to her bedroom and she was asleep within 5 minutes! (Although she did fall asleep on my shoulder, which I don't normally like her to do.) I am going to try and make her stir after 30 minutes. Fingers crossed!

Thanks again for your replies

Lila x

[Isabella's Mummy (Lilab4)]

She is just stirring now, that's nearly 1.5 hours. Yippee!!!!

[calebs mommy]

Glad to hear she had a good nap!  As for eating... do you think she might have reflux? I know you said she straightens out her body, but does she arch her back at all? My son has reflux and that is question the doc always asks with regards to meds.  She says if they arch their back and refuse food, it could be due to pain while eating.  My son spits up a ton, but not refluxer spit up.  There is something called silent reflux.  I don't know much about that, but it is worth doing some research on. 

[Isabella's Mummy (Lilab4)]

It's funny you should say that as I went to the HV this afternoon to ask about reflux. They said that there is a strong chance and that I should see my GP so I've mid an appointment for tomorrow afternoon. Once I have sorted out this feeding problem I will try to move her onto the 4 hour EASY, that is if her nap capability will let me. She has had 2 further 90 minute naps today and DH is home now, trying to get her to catnap before her bath. She has been up 2.25 hours now and is still fighting it!!!

[* Paula *]

With regards to making an extra hole in the teat, you can try using a pin to make the extra hole - this worked well for us.

With regards to her straightening and pushing the bottle away - she could be bored as the flow is not coming quick enough and that is why she is refusing to take the bottle.

Definitely go to your GP and ask about the reflux.

Teething can also do the same thing - as it hurts their gums when they are sucking.  If you think your lo may be teething, you can try rubbing some teething gel on her gums before a feed to see if this can help.

[Isabella's Mummy (Lilab4)]

Thanks, the more research I do, the more I think it is reflux as she has other symptoms too. (She cries after feeds and settles when held in an upright position, she has hiccoughs every day often more than once, she arches her back and looks as though she is in pain during feeds, she coughs quite a bit, eats little and often and almost always brings up a little liquid when she is laid down - sometimes it seems her whole feed comes up!!). I think it has seemed worse the last week or so as she hasn't seen the osteopath. I have read quite a bit about how osteopathy can help reflux. I am amazed that neither the GP or HV have ever suggested it could be reflux until I mentioned it. They are aware of her feeding difficulties, although I'll be pleased to know what is wrong, it will upset me a bit if it is reflux as it was part of the reason I stopped reastfeeding and I have read it is actually better to breast feed a reflux baby!!

I do have some teething gel and will try that if the GP doesn't think reflux is the problem, I will also try the extra hole!!

[* Paula *]

Hugs 

Please let us know what the GP says.  If it is reflux, I would not suggest making an extra hole in the teat as this could make things worse.

Have a look at this link - Found it on the Health, Medical Special Needs Board under Colic, Reflux and Crying. 

https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=654.0

Take care

Paula x

[Isabella's Mummy (Lilab4)]

Thank you xx

[Isabella's Mummy (Lilab4)]

Hello, thought I'd give you an update.

The doctor thinks it could be reflux and has given us Gavisgon to try. I have also made DD an appointment with the osteopath on wednesday so fingers crossed.

I have decided to only use Dr. Brown bottles now as well to see if that makes a difference (we were using Avent ones as well).

The naps have improved a little, the first nap of the day has ben 1.5 hours the last 2 days (the day before it had shortened to 30mins!!). Today she woke after 30, but I left her and to my surprise she was asleep again 15 minutes later!! The other naps are still difficult - unless I let her have a dummy and I don't want to get into that, but that's another story!

I do have another feeding question, DD is 16 weeks old and takes anywhere from 25 to 30 oz each day. As long as she is gaining weight is that ok? I do tend to give her a DF if she has less than 25 oz, but i have been leaving it if not as she will only normally take an oz or 2. It doesn't seem like a lot for her age.  I have moved towards the 4 hr easy, trying to keep her awake a bit longer and it seems to be working ok. but she hasn't increased the amount of milk at each feed. In fact if anything she is taking less! Has this happened to anyone else? I'm worried she'll start waking in the night again without the 5th bottle. Should I try and do the DF every night again now she is only having 4 bottles in the day? Or should i wait and see what happens?

L x

[nicci_31]

Hi,
My daughter had the same symptoms as you are describing i took her to see a cranial osteopath who said the doctor was wrong and it was not reflux it was just very bad wind!
He suggested trying the haberman feeders......we did and we have not looked back since! If you have not tried them it may be worth it. We had Alana on the Dr Browns but the flow is constant and the baby does not get a break, with the Haberman they only get milk when they suck and and can rest with the teat in their mouth without an overflow of milk.
Good Luck