HELP

[joannamair]

My 7 week old is sleep resistant. He breast feeds 2 hourly day and night to the second! will take naps in the day, but needs support to stay asleep. he did manage to put himself to sleep twice yesterday in his cot, but nothing like since. At night it gets much worse, he will sleep bewtween his 7 and 1 am feeds, but then its support to sleep time again, and from 5 to 7 its a blur.

Its a really hard one to manage and I don'tknow what to do, shh pat at the point of his going to sleep lasts until the next feed on times, where he stays in transition mode until he gets hungry again and we start over unless we go out in the pram- he sleeps well then. he was in bed with me until a week ago, when he was more or less feeding through the night without a pattern at times.


Is it early days with the EASY to expect firm changes?

He was held to nap a great deal of the time, or bouncy chair or pram or any available prop to hand! he now has a dummy which he spits out as he falls asleep.


HELP!

Jo

[Missy Lou]

when did you start a routine?  last week?  what is his routine? 

don't get too stressed.  7 weeks old is really little.  my lo ate every 2 hours when i nursing until she was about 4 weeks and then we did every 2.5 hours.  we didn't move to 3 hours until we started formula at 7 weeks.  i don't know very much at all about nursing though.  when he eats, does he eat the same amount/time every time or does he sometimes only eat a little? 

do you swaddle him for naps, bed?
melissa

[joannamair]

am following a easy routine, based on watching for sleep cues and then a wind down and put in cot, returning to a sustined shh pat once he cries out a little. last night he slept between each feed in his cot, only grizzled once and went back with a quiet shh. This morning took 25 mins to get him back to nap.

this is much better than before, routine was hit and miss and baby led, and sleep was a godsend if it happened. some nights were a shared bed latch on from start to finish.

do you prefer the formula to breast feeding? he feeds quickly, and won't latch on once he's decided he's finished. tried all sorts, double switching, single breast etc. we stick to single sided feeds now my milk is up (fennel and fenugreek!), he won't take both sides. I have checked by expressing to make sure that he's getting the hind milk, and his weight gain is great so he is. Its hard though isn't it!

jox

[Missy Lou]

how long is he up at one time?  how long does he nap?

what happens at bedtime?

tell me what the day is like - he wakes at ___ a.m., eats at ___ a.m., plays for ___ hour(s), naps for _____ hours, etc. until bedtime.

i started formula at 7 or so weeks because she was still eating every 2 hours and my mom swore she was hungry.  so being a first time mom, i had no idea so i gave her a bottle.  i nursed and gave formula for about 3 weeks but then one night, she decided no more nursing and just wouldn't.  she had reflux issues also and formula (the right one) seemed to help.  i still miss nursing though.  i never really understood what other women were talking about when they said how wonderful it was and i still didn't even when i was nursing.  but after i stopped, i understood.  i am just clueless though about nursing.  i think it would be more helpful for you to post on that board to check about feeding at night and whether your lo should be able to start eating every 2.5 or 3 hours. 

check with the breast feeding board first and let me know what their suggestions are as to how long your lo should be able to go between feeds.  then we'll adjust his routine. 
melissa

[joannamair]

here is Ed's routine:

E 6am
S slept until 7
A up and about for quarter of an hour - trying to get on routine
S 7.50 - 8.35

E 8.35 5-10 min feed
A until 9.15 big wind down and patting
S 10 - 10.30

E 10.30
A 10.30-11.15 then wind down and pat until
S  12.00 - 12.30

E 12.30
A out in pram
S screamed and hated going offin pram for first time
 slept 1 - 2.30

E 2.30
A until 3.15 wind down
S 3.40 until 4.20

then it all went horribly wrong as had to collect parents from train station

S in car seat from 4.30 - 5. 40

grumpy wanted feeding

E 5.40
A anything to keep him going

Bath at 6 30

E - double switch for first time

S 7 bed, awake for an hour overtired

Then for the first time ever he went 3 hours 40!!!!

E 10.40

E 12.10

E 01.10

E 03.30

S 04.40 unsettled from this point on

E 05.20

E 06.30 Very unsettled sleep so fed to comfort

S 6.50 back in cot

E 8.35
A until 9.15
S 9.15


And on it goes! So is a 2 hour EASY with a quick feed, 45 min activity, long settle time and then short nap unless in pram or car seat.


Can you see a way to better this?? Mind you this mornings settle took minutes, so will have to help him through transition time as there isnow time between the feeds to fit more sleep in.

Joxx

[Missy Lou]

if lo keeps waking about 6 or 6:30 to eat, i'd just start the day at that time (let me know if this time is really bad for you.  6 may seem super early but if that's your lo's time, then maybe try going to bed earlier if possible so that 6 can be the start of day.)  like this morning, it looks like ed ate at 6:30 and then back to sleep.  just play with him for that bit and then to bed.  since he's only up for about an hour, you can go back to bed if necessary by 7:30.

it sounds like ed;s A time is good but it looks like what ends up happening is that he plays the entire 45 minutes and then winddown starts so that he's not in bed until sometimes an hour and half later.  for example, he wakes at 6 and eats.  diaper change and talking, singing, looking outside, etc. until 6:45.  then you go into his room, turn off lights, put on white noise, pull down black out shades, swaddle, cuddle for about 10 minutes.  then when he's calmed down, place in crib.  he needs to be in crib by the hour mark and have transitioned from playing/learning to nap time.   

i would think he's overtired and this is making 30 minute naps.  then he's not napping for long enough periods at one time and is WAY overtired by night time. 

one of the pu/pd moderators just posted this super answer on pat/shhh to help with going down for naps on another post.  i'm going to find it and place it here.

figure out about the 2 hour eating thing though and we'll come up with a routine.  i think a 7/8 week old can go longer between feeds but i don't want to help you come up with a routine that will help with sleeping if he can go longer.

i'm going to look on the naps board also and find something about wake to sleep.  it helps to settle lo after he wakes early from naps.  lastly, the pu/pd mod says this in her response that i'm going to link here, but ed's really little and he'll need help settling for naps and bedtime and to transition between sleep cycles.  so don't worry about the fact that you need to help him.  helping him do this now means he'll be able to do it on his own when he's older.
melissa

[Missy Lou]

here's the pu/pd mod's (zoey's) response to pat/shhh.

____________________________________________________________________
Pat/shh is a fabulous tool for LO's.  Tracy used it to help Lo's fall asleep without having to resort to AP.  First you should find what soothing to your LO.  For example:  Patting; back, butt, mattress - Rubbing; head, butt, back - A hand (or two) on some part of his body, head, back, bum, leg, etc - nothing, just you standing close by.  You can shhh, hum, sing softly, speak softly, or nothing.  Be a detective!  Most often there is something that will help them, we just have to find what it is.

You want him relaxed before going into the crib but not asleep.  He will startle awake and be afraid and kinda mad!  So relaxed and calm but not sleeping.

You can do your 4s's, and put Lo up on your shoulder and begin patting or whatever up there if he is all ramped up - then into the crib with a lovely phrase (I love you time for sleep - or whatever), turn him on his side and begin your patting-whatever and your shhing-whatever.  If baby becomes frantic you may pick him up and place him over your shoulder again and pat/shh there until he is calm again, and back down in the crib, on his side and continue to pat/shh-whatever.  This isn't to be confused with pupd because in pupd we don't settle LO when we pick up - pupd teaches them to settle themselves which babies before 4 months are not mature enough to grasp.  So, you are perfectly safe picking up if he is frantic and pat/shh-whatever up on your shoulder, if need be.

You do all this at this age, for 7-10 mins AFTER he has kinda zoned out, and completely settled - at this point stop shhing-whatever.  If he is still zoned out, slow your patting, slow, slow as he starts to fall asleep.  Don't just stop patting b/c I have found that to sudden stop is enough to startle them awake - so slow, slow, slow and then stop and keep your hand firmly on him, then you can let go and stand by him when he is asleep.  Now some people say to stay with him until he is past the 'first jolt' incase he needs re-patting.  Use your judgement.  The important part at this age is, not to stop just b/c they are settled - he needs your help to get to sleep a this age so keep patting until he is asleep.

You try with this for 40 mins, if he isn't asleep take a break and make sure he isn't hungry - if he was fussing and crying this whole time he will  be hungry.  So, feed, change, cuddle and then go back in and try again.  Make sure your routine is good, with the proper A times, and eating enough or going to sleep will always be difficult.

As he gets older you will help him less and less - here is a linky-poo to read about that:  https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=26672.msg487695#msg487695

I haven't read all the posts here but if baby falls asleep ok after night feedings (good indication that he knows day from night) I would be inclined to darken the room with poster board or foil over the windows, and use some white noise (we use a fan facing the wall on high) to drown out house, toddler and adult noise lol. 


_______________________

melissa

[Missy Lou]

here's a link about wake to sleep from the FAQ section on the NAPS board.

https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64168.0

[joannamair]

Think am going to have to work with my 2 hour EASY, he feeds 2 to 2.5 and I have no chance of shifting it, my first boy fed with such frequency so think  that's just the way my babies feed. So within this 2 hours am going to have to seriously shorten activity time, so its swift feed- he feeds very quickly, short activity and wind down and sleep.

what about the feed and on into the next cycle if still tired?


with 2 hourly feeds its really hard to do this.


Jox

[Missy Lou]

when he goes down for a nap, does he wake up early and you feed him or do you wake him up to eat?

that is the problem with feeding every 2 hours when he's 7/8 weeks because it's hard to keep him up for the appropriate time but also allow him long enough naps to be refreshed.  let me know the answer and maybe we can figure something out.
melissa

[joannamair]

Hi there

he takes forever to nap in the house, have been at it for a week and some days better than others, he wakes to feed after a nap in the house- he was not ready to wake from the end of a nap today, so fed and as we had to go out he went right through the next 2 hours fast asleep and also into the afternoon, think he was shattered after missing all the sleeps last week. The sleep today was fully propped, car seat, pram and car seat. When it came to a non prop sleep, he snoozed and woke up from it after 20 Min's.

As we have an Amby bed, its a hammock on a large spring, he is on a very soft moveable sling and mattress to sleep. He settles into this without a shush and I lurk as he calms down and gets sleepy and intervene without picking him up with a hand on his chest, and a shush and a pat but the bed does have a natural movement and is not static at all. He then gets to the eyes shut open stage and stays at this point for ever it seems, eventually nodding off for such a short time before hungry. He does not scream and cry,is a very content little guy, just seems to stay there in this transient state glazed over, but hardly asleep. I on the other hand am exhausted!


If I feed him again prior to his nap his feeds are even closer together. This also does not seem to extend his naps when I have tried it. He will not fall asleep on the breast either. never has, so when desperate its been a case of jigging him and bouncing in his bed with his dummy, which he spits out as he hits sleep and then needs more support.

We have a cot side bed and a crib. which we had no success with at all, so got the Amby bed, at least he sleeps out of our bed in the Amby bed now. we were co sleeping for 6 weeks. Which is why naps were so propped. He slept very poorly as a co- sleeper too, so in the last 10 days we have made some difference if not much!!

Next week will also be fun as its not going to be baby led in so much as there are the school runs, so he'll be in carrier or pram, feeds will have to be juggled to suit as will sleep. Not sure how will cope at all.

His feeding increased last night to 1.5 hourly a couple of times, and again today, so am wondering if there is a late growth spurt going on, as didn't notice a change in feeds at 6 weeks.


Am getting increasingly despondent with it all!


How to sort this one is hard. He is so lovely, and easy going, just won't sleep on his own night or day. Although nights are getting better.


Jox

[Missy Lou]

Jox - i'm going to be quite honest with you.  when my lo was younger, we never truly achieved independent sleep.  i used a million props and then found BW and got her on a routine.  it just happened that she started to fall asleep on her own after being put on a routine so i figured i must have trained her to sleep and didn't need pu/pd, pat/shh, wake to sleep, whatever.  well, 5 months hit and her sleeping went wild.  i didn't know what to do because i never really learned myself how to teach her independent sleep and therefore she didn't learn it either.  so we were both lost and not sleeping much.  so now, i'm trying to teach her independent sleep.  props don't work as well IMO at this age.  she's too big for a swing weight-wise, she  moves all over her crib so a swing is also dangerous to me, she weighs about 1/7 of my weight so rocking and walking with her i just can't do. 

i'm telling you this because props may be easier when they're younger but if they don't learn independent sleep, it will come back to haunt you and then you'll just have to either do it anything or become a prop yourself.   not knocking you or anything like that.  you sound just like me so i'm definitely not knocking your parenting style.  i'm just telling you what my situation has become without having trained lo to sleep.

i found this routine on the Activity board.  there's a section called sample routines for babies 0-3 months.  the mom said this was the routine for her lo from about 2-3 months.  this may be a routine you could follow or adjust for your lo.

_____________________________

E 7:00am bf
A
S 8:15

E 9:30 bf
A
S 10:45

E 12:00bf
A
S 1:15

E 2:30bf
A
S 3:00

E 5:00bf
A
E 7:00bf
S 7:30 bed

E 12:30ish bf
S
E 3:00ish bf
S
E 5:30ish bf
S

______________________

as far as juggling his routine, i know it's hard.  sometimes (like on sundays) i need to arrange lo's routine around other obligations.  i usually sit down and write down what times i need to do something and how long it will take.  then depending on your lo's reaction to the car, do those things during A time or naptime.  the bad thing about nap time though is lo needing the car to go to sleep. 

i remember reading that the first growth spurt can be anywhere from 6-8 weeks old and then generally every 6 weeks after. 

training a lo to sleep is so hard.  it's not something i ever thought about when considering conceiving (probably for the best right?).  it sounds like you have an angel baby if even without good sleep, he's easygoing and happy.  my lo is spirited and let me tell you, she is very vocal about being tired.  from what i've read, angel babies do well with sleep training.  i'd go to the pu/pd board and just suck it up and do it. 
i hope i didn't upset you in any way.  if i did, please forgive me.  it's hard to get a point across through typing sometimes.  please tell me if anything i said was offensive.
melissa

[joannamair]

Hi melissa, offensive! you must be joking, you've been absolutely brilliant and really helped me think about things. My first used me as a prop and I was diagnosed as having post natal insomnia when he was 4 months, couldn't sleep even if had the opportunity. it was seriously hard. I had him on my boob for everything! When he was 7 months old, the Health Visitor told me he didn't need his night feeds 2 hourly, and to put his back too my belly and hold him for the night and fight it out. I did and it worked! The next night he slept. It was really hit and miss after, but no more feeds just big sleep issues. He's 6 now! And for the first time EVER went the night without wetting the bed last night! Miracle!!!

So with Ed I am fearful of the same, which is why I jumped at this and probably why I am so wary of getting it wrong and to get it sorted. I had to remind myself yesterday that Ed is just a beautiful baby with such basic needs, and to stop waking him to fit into the routine when he is so little! He ended up chronically overtired by sunday! He feeds well, and I read him well, just didn't have the parenting skills to teach sleep or think beyond breast as prop.

Now last night was better again,and I have put the lap top by his cot thing and just intervene when necessary and log onto the site and then when its taken a little while to get him off,I have also been occupied with reading bits, so time passes well...

If BW is a routine, why are times mentioned so frequently? and 3, 3.5 hr cycles etc, because surely a baby will vary throughout the day and week?

Last night was better once again, still hard but definate trends are there, naps, ha, well he just went off and woke up in 15 mins, so he's been resettled! hey ho another day of it!!!


Hugs
Jo x

[Missy Lou]

your sweet little DS#1.  i'm happy to hear about him sleeping well through the night. 

the timing for the routines is really just a guide.  none of us can be with you so the time helps to give something concrete to tell you.  like with the routine i found and put in the previous post, try that and then adjust for ed.  for example, my lo ends up having a bottle about 3:30, dinner about 5:30 and her last bottle about 6:15.  i haven't really ironed it out well because we just dropped the catnap so she isn't still awake when it's four hours after the 3:30 bottle.  but there are still times where it's only been 3 hours since her last bottle and she goes crazy because she wants one now so we eat a little early.  always feed lo if he's hungry.  tracy just gives a routine to follow so that lo isn't 9 or 10 months and isn't snacking all day.  like a friend has a 4 year old who still wakes for a bottle at night.  i'm not an expert, but it doesn't seem like a 4 year old needs to eat during the night.  so helping lo get on a regular eating routine i think helps him know when it's time to eat and he doesn't want to snack all day and night.

you are totally right about ed.  i call my lo "perfect beautiful".  she has trouble sleeping (mostly because i haven't taught her well), she's a little impatient and very vocal.  she's also funny, playful, active, sweet.  so with everything, i don't want to change a thing about her and she is always perfect and beautiful - even at 4 in the morning.   

it's wonderful you can read him so well.  that's what you need to go with.  we're here to help you find ways to adjust his routine, help his sleep, etc.  the hourly cycles will vary.  somedays lo just doesn't want to sleep and that can throw things off.  so the way i do it is to feed her at the same time more or less.  feeding at 3 or 3:15 or maybe even 3:30.  but the thirty minutes is kind of pushing it IMO.  i can't control completely when lo wants to sleep and play.  she starts yawning after playing an hour.  but i know if i put her down, she'll sleep for 20 minutes and then wake up.  she may be a little tired but after an hour, she's really not completely ready to sleep.  so that's why there's so much talk about routines.  babies this young sometimes don't know when is best to sleep or play.  or she'll fight a nap.  her little eyes are rolling back and yet she still wants to play.  that's when i step in after she's been up for 2.5 hours and stick her bottom in bed. 

my biggest suggestion now is to write down the trends.  sometimes they aren't the best things to just let go, especially when there are things you can do to help lo break these habits.  also as ed gets older, and his naps start going crazy, consider lengthening A time.  you'll probably notice he won't eat as much at his feeds and then you'll know it's time to start going longer between feeds.  my lo started taking maybe half of her bottle and so i started waiting about 3.5 hours to feed her, then 4 hours the next time. 

if you have any specific concerns about the sleep habits ed has, please write them down.  we'll try and figure them out.
glad i didn't upset you jo.
have a great day!
melissa