should I let him cry or pick him up?

[frankiesmom]

Hi ds is 4 months old and is bf, still waking 2 times plus the df. He will eat, but by the way he eats, I don't think he really needs it.  He eats slowly and is usually done within 10 minutes.  He is bf and gets a bottle of formula for his df and I top him off with a bottle before he goes to sleep around 7.  When he wakes up, he just starts with a slow ah, ah, ah, and if I go to look at him he is rubbing his face into the mattress and flipping his head from side to side (he sleeps on his belly b/c of his reflux).  His eyes are completely shut and he is doing a long aaahhh, that he repeats over and over again, then he stops and looks like he is going to fall asleep, then he starts over again.  I have been feeding him, but I don't think he needs it and it is affecting his day feeds b/c he won't eat much when he wakes up. I have tried to let him go but usually I get him after 15 minutes or so or if it escalates.  Then I tried to pat/sh him (which is how we sleep trained him for his naps) and he did this for an hour, then fell back to sleep, then woke in the am very happy and ate great.
The interesting thing is that if I pick him up, it is like it startles him out of whatever zone he is in and his eyes pop open and he starts screaming until I feed him.  It is like he is not really awake while he is doing this.  I don't really think it is a mantra cry, I would say it is a little more urgent then that but it is also not a "I am really hungry cry and you better get in here and get me" cry either.  Judging by the way he reacts when I pick him up, I don't think that PU/Pd will work for him and I think that pat/sh irritates him more then anything, so what should I do?  If I don't do anything, isn't that the same thing as CIO?

If you need more info, let me know.  He is on a 4 hour EASY with 1.5 to 2 hour naps at roughly 9 and 1 and a catnap at roughly 5,  bedtime betwen 7 and 7:30, df at 10:30 (which sometimes he wakes before and gets a bottle), and wake time around 7.
Wake times are always either 1 and 4, 2 and 5 or 3 when he has one waking.

Thanks!!

Kim

[Colin Macs Mom]

Hi Kim,

At 4 months it's normal to still have some NW, and also one night feed. If he didn't need any night feed after the DF that would pretty unusual, but if he's not eating well in the morning then that does make one wonder!

Personally, I wouldn't go in when he's doing the ahhhh thing unless it escalates. Sounds to me like it's probably a mantra cry, or he's a noisy sleeper like my DS.    He's learning to self-soothe and put himself back to sleep. Annoying to listen to sometimes, I know, but that's how they figure stuff out. It's not the same as CIO because it sounds like he's not even awake, and if it's a mantra cry, that's not the kind of C in CIO.

[Kimberly®]

I agree with pp. Deffinitly don't let your LO CIO but if it doesn't sound like a real cry give your LO a chance to settle. Wakings arn't unusual at this age, but maybe you can get him to one walking rather then 2.

Have you tried settleing him any other way or just feeding? Do you have someone who can help you at night?

[frankiesmom]

Hmm... I thought I posted a reply but it seems to have been lost.  Anyway, hopefully I am not repeating myself.  I've tried pat/sh or picking him up, but like I said he seems to get more irritated especially when I pick him up. It is like he is zoned out or not really awake or something and just trying to get himself back to sleep and then if I pick him up, his eyes pop open and he really screams.  Dh is willing to help, mostly on the weekends which is why I am trying to get this started tonight.  I just don't think he needs to eat every 3 to 3.5 hours at night.  He goes 4 during the day.  Normally I would let him go for like 20 minutes b.c it sounds like a mantra cry, not a hunger cry, but then he gets upset when he can't put himself back. Also,he eats slowly and only for 5 to 10 minutes. 
Just FYI, he has reflux and is on prilosec.
So, are you in agreement that he shouldn't need to eat every 3 hours?  He was down to one at 4am and then we started having some trouble with his reflux (his meds were not mixed properly and he wasn't eating well during the day) so I think he needed the feeds then, but now I really believe it is habit.  And if I need to drop one feed, should it be the first one (usually between 1 and 2)?  And what is the best way to do it, based on how he is acting when he wakes?

THANKS
Kim

[Colin Macs Mom]

No, I wouldn't think that he would need to eat that often at night. I am wondering though if the reflux is the problem. Does he sleep elevated?

[frankiesmom]

Yes his mattress is elevated, and we hold him up for 20 minutes after eating.  That may be part of the problem.  Because he is usually pretty sleepy when we put him down. I mean, he is not out cold, he will sort of open his eyes and then move his head around, so I wonder if he doesn't know how to put himself to sleep at night.  For naps, he is awake when we put him down, but he never eats right before he sleeps.  I have tried feeding him earlier at night, but he won't eat well.
As far as the reflux bothering him at night, there is a distinct difference in his cries when he spits up for instance and I know I have to go in there right away, but I guess there could be some pain there that is not waking him fully and that is why he is fussing.  His reflux was really bad for a few weeks b/c his meds were not make up properly (I think) b/c as soon as I finished the bottle there was a large amount of residue caked on the bottom.   I think he wasn't getting the correct dose.  As soon as I started the new bottle, he started eating better and was much less irritable but unfortunately the night wakings continued.  When he was doing poorly, the GI doc scheduled him for endoscopy but I am not sure if we should still do it b/c he is doing so much better as far as symptoms. 
Reflux babies are so hard, aren't they?  I don't want to comfort him if he hurts, but I also don't want to continue bad habits.
So, what do you think?   

[Kimberly®]

I think you are in the same position that many of us have been in. Follow your heart in how you deal is the best I can tell you. We can tell you what we think, our experiences, but you know your LO best, take what we've given you and mold it to fit your LO and you.

[Colin Macs Mom]

It really is hard to have a LO with reflux. I was the Queen of AP, believe me! I think that you have to do whatever you need to do to keep LO comfortable and you sane, even if it means AP. You can always fix any bad habits later.

[frankiesmom]

Hi ladies, thanks for all of your help.  Just FYI, I decided to try W2S as Luca was consisitently waking at 1:30. So, dh did it at 12:30 and he still woke at 1:30, mantra cry on and off for 20 minutes and went back to sleep, woke at 3:30 and did a mantra crt for 20 minutes, which then escalated, so I figured that maybe trying to stop both feedings was too ambitious.  I bf him but he really barely ate.  He was smiling at me and trying to get me to play, so I ignored the cute smiles and put him back down and he slept until 7:15.  My plan is to tackle the 1:30 waking with W2S and pat/sh and then when that is gone, try to get rid of the other one.  I am pretty confident now that he is not hungry, so I feel better about things.
Thanks again,
Kim