Where did my baby go?

[nursekat]

So...I've been a spoiled mommy.  My babe has been sleeping through the night since she was 2mos old, and now at over 4 mos is starting to wake again.  All week she has woken once for a feed, somewhere between 2am-4am...I wasn't complaining then because I almost felt more rested - we both slept in until 8am and I wasn't waking frequently from my painful engorgement.

Last night she woke at 11pm - she hasn't done that since she was a month old!!  I resettled her, then she woke at 11:50, 12:00am, 12:15, so I finally got her up and fed her (she was only mildly fussy).  She slept until 4am and did the same thing, waking every 10-15 mins until I finally got her up and fed her.  Is it a growth spurt or what?  She doesn't seem to be super upset or hungry, but if I just settle her and put her back down, she will keep waking up over and over.

As far as her daily easy goes, she has been on a textbook 3 hr easy until these past couple of weeks.  Well, almost textbook - she has only always been able to stay awake for one hour, so she'd do one hr A time, 2 hrs S time, with a 45min catnap in the eve.  We have just been getting great success at slowly stretching her A times to 1.5 hrs, except maybe in the late afternoon and evening when she was more tired - she sometimes would only make it 1.25 or 1 hr.  Could it be the change in schedule is too much?  She was born a month early...maybe she's not ready?

As far as props, we have none except she does use a pacifier.  Although, she has always used it appropriately in that she just needs it to fall asleep (sometimes it's even out before she's all the way asleep), and only rarely does she call in the night to need it popped back in.

Any ideas?  Any other info you need?  I miss my sleep!! 

[Molsmum]

My LO has never been text book but would sleep from 7.30pm until 7am waking for one feed at between 3and 4.  This week she started waking every 40-45 minutes during the night.  I posted on here too 'From once a night to 8-10 times'.  The replies I got focussed on developmental issues, teething and rolling.  My LO has just started rolling onto her side so I think this could well be it, has your LO started to roll too.  The other suggestion was slight reflux.
I know it's an absloute nightmare but after 5 nights my LO slept until 3.15am and then woke as usual every half an hour until 6.30am.  The first stretch was a start so hopefully we'll get back on track.
Hope you soon have your sleep back

[Molsmum]

Post was from once a night to every hour or less if you want to look at suggestions

[*Mona*]

right, developmental issues probably. same thing happened to my dd when she started teething, rolling and trying to sit up all day long and even in her crib at night. plus, I've just returned to work which had had a huge impact on dd as well
but we're getting better. so hang on in there, your baby will be back, just give her some time.
oh, and moving to 4 hrs EASY should help some too, she's a big girl already.
HTH,
Monika

[Colin Macs Mom]

nursekat, this age can be really rough on sleeping because they start developmental stuff. Which is great, but not fun at nighttime!    Has she started rolling at all yet?

[nursekat]

She's rolled over (front to back) once, and I'm not sure she knew what was going on!    But she does roll side to side a lot...I went more on following her cues today and she couldn't stay awake as long as she has in the past couple of weeks, so I'm wondering if we were pushing her routine a little too much.  She's always needed a LOT of sleep (I was the same way growing up), and she was born a month early, so I'm just taking it at her pace right now.

[nursekat]

Yeah, stacy, I just saw a post recently about somebody who had an LO with lots of night wakings due to the paci.  I'm keeping it in the back of my mind, but I'm just not convinced.    Anyway, she's had night wakings wanting the paci before, where all she wants is it back in her mouth and then she's back out for hours.  This is her waking, then waking again, then waking again until I feed her.  I don't know that she's hungry, but just that the feed helps her sleep more soundly.  I'm going to slow down on pushing her A times quite as much as we've been doing and see how that works.

btw, I had mommy mush brain for a second there.  I was reading another thread about somebody else's baby with n/w, and then I switched threads but forgot I had done that - I read your response and thought, "Is she talking to me?  Oh yeah, I think she's talking to me.  Wait...how did she know we use a paci??"    I need more sleep...

[nursekat]

So, we went back to a 3hr easy and she doesn't seem as tired, but is still waking at night.  For a few nights it was two feeds (multiple wakings) in the night, but the last couple of nights it has been just one feed (although multiple wakings).

My new question is this - do babies go from sleeping through the night to needing feeds at night?  Or is the feeding just a means to an end (as in she'll just sleep better, but doesn't need it)?  I'm trying to discern if she's needing the feeds or if it's a prop (paci) thing. 

In any case, she's looking chunkier with all of these extra feeds at night. 

Generally what she does is wakes and fusses (but doesn't open her eyes) - she's very very easy to resettle but then will wake anywhere from 10-20-60 minutes later.  When she does this a couple of times I just feed her and then she'll sleep for hours, often until the am.  So since she resettles easily I'm not positive that it's hunger, although since she does well after a feed maybe it is??  Any thoughts??

[Colin Macs Mom]

Is it possible that you're going in too soon? If she's just fussing and isn't even 100% awake, definitely leave her be.

[nursekat]

Tried that.    She just wakes up and fusses more. 

[nursekat]

What?  They change???   

Just teasing...we do cluster feed, but she never takes very much for her last feed of the day - she's always a bit tired and fussy...might work on giving her an ebm bottle to see if she'll take that better...I'm just trying to figure out if it's food or props.  She eats at totally random times - anywhere from 11pm to 5am!  Maybe she is ready to move away from the 3hr easy?  As in she's snacking every 3 hrs instead of getting her full amounts?

[Colin Macs Mom]

Yeah, you might try a 3.5 hour EASY to test.

[nursekat]

Tried over several weeks to stretch to 3.5 EASY, ended up being worse and worse for her every day, with the overtiredness.  I thought that was maybe what was causing the night wakings.  So we went back to 3hrs, and she has been sleeping really well during the day and eating well every 3 hrs.  I tried just BARELY stretching her A times today, but what we run in to is that her third long nap of the day runs well into the evening - do people ever just skip catnaps?

[Colin Macs Mom]

Sure, not everyone does a catnap. It all depends on LO and what they can or can't handle.

[nursekat]

Well, last night was a weird evening.  Her third long nap of the day ended at 5:30pm, so I was hesitant to put her down for a catnap and decided to just watch her cues.  She was content until 7:20!!  She didn't want anything to do with eating, though, since she just ate at 5:30pm.  So I just put her down and she was sound asleep by 7:30...but she woke up at 8:15 - a perfect 45min nap!  So I just fed her and put her right back down, and she would wake every 20mins or so for about an hour, then she was out.  She had a better night than she's had in a while - one waking for binkie and settling, one waking for eating.  Not bad.  Will have to keep experimenting with A times and catnaps.  In general, do you want a longer stretch of A time in the evening or shorter?

[Colin Macs Mom]

Well that's good!! 

A lot of LOs have their longest A time at the end of the day, before bed, but not all. My DS does his longest in the middle of the day. You just have to try different things and see what works best!

[nursekat]

ok, I don't know what's going on anymore.    She was sooo great at sleeping through the night since she was 5 weeks old!  Now she wakes up so much it's not even funny - I feel like I did when she was first born.  I'm back to having phantom baby issues again!!    Anyway, going back to the 3hr EASY didn't help any, in fact she's often eating twice in the night.  I can usually put her back down when she wakes, but after an hour or two of waking every 20 mins she loses it and needs to eat, so I know she's hungry and it's not that she's just waking.  So I'm thinking pushing her to a 3.5 or 4 hr easy might help (in that she might eat more per feed??), but she has trouble staying awake longer than an hour still.  The weird thing is that if we have a day out and about she won't sleep, and she does just fine skipping an entire nap.  So I know she can do it.    I'm also gearing up to wean the swaddle and paci, which is hard to get motivated to do when you're already sleep deprived.    Oh I miss those beautiful nights.  I don't do well on little sleep at ALL. 

[Colin Macs Mom]

I know what you mean,  I don't do well without sleep either. I need a lot of sleep - 9.5 hours a night would be ideal for me. HA! That might happen again once DS moves out. But anyway I understand, all too well!

Most LOs are ready to move to a 4 hour EASY around 4 mo., and if she's acting like she can't stay awake longer than an hour, I think it's time to make that change. If you think a 3.5 would be better to start with then that's fine too!

[nursekat]

thanks, ladies.

I feel like I'm looking at a ton of different variables and I'm not sure which one to mess with!  I will leave the swaddle be for now.    She's a wiggler, so I'm sure it helps.  Thanks, stacy.

On her 3 hr EASY, she could only make it awake for one hour and sleep for two.  So she slept for three 2hr naps, and one 45min catnap...total of 6.75 hrs a day.  Then she would sleep 12 hrs at night, occasionally with one night feed.  So...at 4mos I tried slowwwly stretching to a 3.5hr EASY, but by the end of the day she would show all sorts of signs of being overtired, and then she started with night wakings.  So I went back to the 3hr routine since she was born a month early and I was worried maybe I was pushing her too early.  Also, when I stretch to a 3.5, we have trouble in the evening.  She wakes at 45mins during her 3rd nap, and by then it's dinner time so it's almost impossible to get her to extend to a full long nap, and if I get her up after 45mins she's cranky, doesn't catnap well, doesn't go down well, etc. 

I am suspicious of the paci now, just because she is waking up bunches of times as opposed to once or twice to eat...previously if she woke up, it was obvious she was hungry and I'd feed her and put her down.  Now when she wakes up, she's kind of half awake and crying and I can shh/pat her back to sleep but then she's awake in 20 minutes and will keep doing this until I feed her.  So I never know if I should just feed her the first time she wakes or try to coax her to sleep longer (sometimes she'll go another hour before she wakes again).  I do think, regardless of the above, that she is starting to get dependent on the paci as she has it in when she wakes up more often than not now, and there have been times she's woken at odd intervals and falls right back asleep when I pop it in.  So I'm reading up on it and bracing myself to start that whole thing.  I just worry about stretching her A times and doing the paci thing at the same time - her paci really helps when I'm keeping her awake a little longer than she'd like to be!

Thanks!!! 

[nursekat]

Ok, just wanted to post how yesterday went.  She actually did really well and did all her A times for 1.5hrs and took three 2 hr naps and one 20min catnap.  It was suprising that she was able to do it after I had gone back to a 3hr easy, but I guess all that work a few weeks ago to stretch her to a 3.5 hr easy paid off??  Anyway, her last long nap was not so great, as she woke at 45mins and then woke every 10-15mins after that.  But then she was exhausted after her next A time (and not showing signs of being overtired), and went down well for her catnap.  We kept it short because when she does the 3.5hr easy, her last nap is already well into the evening.  So after a 20min catnap, we woke her, did her bedtime routine, and she went down easily.  HOWEVER, she woke at 45mins and it took us an hour to get her back to sleep!!  I think it was about 9:45pm before she fell asleep.  So she was a bit overtired - that's what she does when she's overtired.  She'll wake up and stay awake - she refuses to close her eyes no matter what we do!

Stacy, I also tried your suggestion via pm to give an extra few ounces of ebm after she bf.  She slept until 2:30am last night - which is the longest stretch she's done in quite a while!  Then she slept until 6:30am, when she woke just wanting her binkie.  Then again at 7:00.  Then again at 8:00 when I got her up to start the day.  So it'll be nice to wean that binkie.

SO this is my plan of action, tell me what you think - I would like to get her used to the 3.5hr schedule for a couple of days (should I go longer?), giving her an extra bottle of ebm at bedtime, and then start weaning the paci.  Stacy I know you also suggested not to wean the swaddle now, but what about switching to an aussie swaddle?  I'd like to have it so she could suck on her hands if she wants to.  Just a thought. 

thanks in advance. 

[Colin Macs Mom]

Personally I would give her more than a few days on the 3.5 hour. Sounds like she takes a bit of time to make adjustments. I would also go with the Aussie swaddle. I'm glad that things are getting better!

[nursekat]

So do you two ladies recommend waiting to wean the paci until she's adjusted to the 3.5 or should I just go ahead and start the gradual wean now?  It's easier to extend her A times if I can sit with her the last 15mins with a paci and spend quiet time with her that way.

[nursekat]

Good deal on the ebm!! If you were a milk factory you could top up at bedtime with it and dream feed with one and probably really maximize your night!!

Oh yeah forgot I was going to reply to this part too.    I can express about an extra 2oz during the day, so that's what I gave her last night.  However, she sucked it right down and prob could have taken more, so I'm toying with the thought of adding a little formula to the ebm.  Not sure about that one, tho.  Still warming up to the idea.    And she has never had a DF - when we first tried doing it, she wouldn't wake up enough, or she'd wake up all the way (she's a bit spirited) and it would be hard to get her back down.  She started sleeping 12 hrs without the df so we dropped it.  Plus, I tend to go to bed right after she does, so I'd rather just wake whenever she does than set an alarm to do the DF.  Is this the wrong idea?   

She has not used the paci during A time for about 6 weeks now - we have pretty much strictly used it for naps and nighttime since she was 3mos.  I just started using it recently when I was extending her A times as she'd get a little cranky towards the end, and using it for wind-down time anyway.

[Colin Macs Mom]

I'm with Stacy. I would get it to sleeping time only and then go from there. And don't be afraid to be creative either. With my DS we took it away cold turkey and he didn't even notice for about 3 days. Then all of a sudden it was like he remembered and boy was he mad!    So then we reintroduced it but in the crib only. And to this day he gets it for sleeping only, he knows that and it's not an issue at all. The paci never became a prop to him again after that.

I'm not saying that you should do the same thing necessarily, but think about your DD and what sort of kid she is, KWIM?

[nursekat]

So I'm going to lose this baby weight after all - the easiest thing to distract her (other than her paci) during the last stretch of her A time is to go for a walk with her in the carrier so she can watch and giggle at the dog the whole time.  We pretty much have done everything in the house there is to do by the end of her A time (she's at a very-much-needing-to-change-activities-every-10-mins stage), so going for a walk is the best thing.  I'm so out of shape! 

So, no binkie during A time now.  But to clarify - should I get her settled in her 3.5hr routine before taking it away during S times?

[nursekat]

Oh, I would put it off indefinitely if it were up to me!   

I pulled it out after she fell asleep today...we'll see how that goes over...so far so good.  Man, she had it in there tight, though!

Stacy, I read in the props page that you had a pretty successful paci wean...did you do it gradually?  Sorry this is in the wrong thread, but what did you do exactly?  She puts herself down with the paci in, so I'm usually not in there during her different stages.  Is it ok for me to just go in after 5 mins and take it out?  Or should I sit there and watch her to take it out?

[nursekat]

Well, after yesterday evening I decided to hang on to the binkie a little longer...

Again, we had the problem with her third long nap of the day...her 45-min mark was at 5:30pm, and she didn't want to go back to sleep, and was super cranky that evening.  She did a 30min catnap, then we did our bedtime routine (including an extra bottle of ebm) and she went to sleep GREAT at 7:30pm.  So...we thought we were sitting pretty...only she woke at her 45min mark - 8:15pm, and didn't fall asleep until 10:30pm!!  Oh, I had a little bit of a meltdown last night...I don't do well with little sleep at all.  What makes them do that??

The good part of it was she only woke up ONCE at 4am for a feeding.  She slept until 7:30am, and really just wanted her binkie and go back to sleep.  But I got her up...she wasn't happy about that.  AND, she managed to stay awake 1hr 45mins for her first A time!!  After she got past her 1hr mark, she was great and so I just waited until she looked tired again.  Then with a little break at her 45min nap mark, she made it to the 4hr mark...I had to wake her up...maybe she's already ready for 4hrs??  That suprised me a little bit.  She did 1 hr 40mins for her second A time just fine.  We'll see how this evening goes - cross your fingers.  I definitely think the extra bottle could be a huge part of the solution, though!  I noticed she slept from 4am on without her binkie, so maybe that's not as much of the problem as hunger is...

[nursekat]

Since I have your attention, ladies...

She is still waking late in the evening, as if she is treating her bedtime as a nap.  She wakes 45mins to 1hr, then doesn't want to go back to sleep until 9:30-10:30pm.  I've noticed that her first A time of the day is the hardest (and thus usually the shortest), so I'm thinking she's doing the extending her night time deal with her first nap that I've read about elsewhere...and so her 12 hour "day" is like from 9:30a to 9:30p...what are some good ways to fix that?  Or do you have other ideas on why she's doing this in the evening?

Two night feeds last night, but those were the only times she woke up, so we're getting there.  The two nights before that were just one waking, so I'm optimistic.  Slowly but surely!    She is doing really well on her new routine, too!!

[nursekat]

Oh yeah I had another thought (sorry for incessantly bugging you):

Does shortening the catnap sometimes work?  I let her do a full 45mins and wonder if that is too much...like maybe 30mins?  Just to make her a little extra tired at bedtime so she doesn't wake 45mins later?

[nursekat]

She seems undertired, just by looking at her - usually if she's overtired her body is just wiggling out of control and she's making weird noises.  When she wakes and stays up until 9:30, she is cooing and babbling and doing everything she can to get me to play with her!  Also, we had a church class the other night so she was awake almost an hour (!!) more than she normally is (can't sleep in the nursery - spirited!), and she conked out with no other wakings until 4am.  So I will try the shorter catnap, or bumping the catnap up a teensy earlier and see what that does...

Thanks, Stacy!!! 

[nursekat]

OK, HELP!!!!!   

The last two nights have been awful.  She wakes pretty much ever 15-20mins (or maybe doesn't ever quite fall asleep?) until 1am!  Then she wakes every hour until the morning!  We had an awful day yesterday, totally off her routine because she was so irritable and cranky.  It's not like her - she usually does ok during the day even if she had a bad night.  I'm dreading today (it's 8am here, time to wake).

I can't feel any teeth coming in, and she doesn't have any cold symptoms...what's going on?    

I know I need to let go of the fact that she used to sleep 12 hrs, but I'm tired.  I don't handle little sleep at ALL.   

[nursekat]

Oh I'm sooo thankful you're here! 

Prop:  Yes, the paci is going.  Soon.  Some of her wakings are definitely that - she fusses with her mouth wide open and then goes right back down as soon as I pop it in.  However, not all of her wakings are that - often I go in there and it's already in (I know, I know...it's going don't worry! , and I just need to pat her a bit and she goes back down.

Feeds:  I fed her at 10pm, she screamed for 5mins when I first offered the breast, then I rocked her until she calmed down and she fed fine.  Took me until 11pm to get her back down, though.  Fed her again at 12:30am, she screamed when I changed her diaper, but then went down and I think that's what got her "switched" to every hour instead of every 20mins.

She is not acting in pain, I think.  She is rather easy to put back to sleep with a shh/pat.  Hmmm...has she turned my presence into a prop?  Ah but an ear infection I had not thought of.  She was a little warm to me yesterday but not enough to take a temp.  I will look at her today more closely.  She also has a diaper rash that looks more like yeast than a diaper rash...but I have not known it to bug babies (I was a pedi nurse, btw).

Wakey time...

[nursekat]

Ok, I've just been working up the nerve to ditch the paci, and now that she's not sleeping well I have been putting it off more since it "helps."  We'll start today.

are there posts to read about indep sleep?

What do you think about her taking naps beautifully, though?  Why is she doing naps ok but not nights?

[Colin Macs Mom]

My DS always napped like a champ as well, but nights were hell on earth. Never really did figure it out for sure.    Is your DD spirited? That's been a huge part of our sleep challenges with Colin. He's always got something else to do, you know? I always suspected that nights were just too long for him to be stuck in the boring crib supposed to be sleeping - booooring. 

If you want to read more about independent sleep, then check out the FAQ sections of the sleep boards. There's TONS of stuff there. I would start with the sleep interview with Tracy.

[nursekat]

Yes, Jessica, she is a spirited one...although she has been on BW since she was 3 weeks...so often she is able to disguise her spiritedness and play it off like she's a textbook.  LOL!

We're on nap one with no paci.  I did read the sleep interview but it was quite a while back and was for other reasons...I'll head there again.

Thanks, ladies.  I need to chat with you at 12am when I'm thinking to myself, "Why do I listen to that stuff?  I want to pick her up and rock her to sleep!!"  LOL!  Although she's spirited enough that that usually doesn't work, she wakes as soon as I move.  So I guess that's a good thing for me, she's keeping me from AP! 

[nursekat]

Oh yeah I forgot my other question (soo tired) - she is really struggling in the evening on the 4hr easy - too much A time-to-catnap ratio.  I tweaked her routine one day for a mommy's group and it looked like this:

A 7:00
S 8:00
A 9:00
S 11:00
A 1:00
S 3:00
A 5:00
catnap somewhere in the middle
bedtime @ 7:30

Basically she just got an extra nap in the am - she is so tired in the morning, and this way it also shortened her evening awake times.  Just wanting to know what you think.

And...if you think that is not advisable, what about moving her bedtime up an hour so her daytime consists of 11hrs?

[nursekat]

Gotcha.  Thanks stacy.  This is hard work.   

If you wanna keep an eye on how I'm doing:  https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=73219.0;topicseen

[nursekat]

Ok, so on day 6 of paci weaning and I'M having some regression issues!  LOL! 

She's waking 3-4 times a night, needing to eat at about 2 of those.  Tracy suggests giving the paci to get over night feeds, but what do you do when weaning?  I read the post about feeding less during the night feeds, and she'll take more in the day, hopefully.  I'm just tired, and at a big low point.    I really was spoiled with those 12hr nights she used to do!!