Transitioning 3-4 hr , now with night wakings

[Colin Macs Mom]

Ditto to Stacy.

[waffler]

Okay I hear what you're saying

Update. Naps were : 30+40, 30+30 and a 30 catnap. Didnt b/f her to sleep. She woke after 45 mins, put her back down again (that was 8.30pm). Next time she woke was... 1130pm!!!! I b/f her as it was about 4.5 hrs, and she did feed well actually, although was v sleepy. Put her in cot awake... and swaddled her, then laid hands on her and pat shush (patted her shoulder). She fell asleep... I shsushed for 25 mins though! But then the next time she woke, was 5.30. And i was a bit hesitant to feed her, thinking too close to 7am, but I went in anyway and fed her. Well, tried to do the same as earlier, but she wasnt having any of it. I encouraged her to find her fingers, and she does suck but it just isnt the same (obviously!). ANyawy. I've left her in her cot as its now 6.30 am. And I'll go up and wake her at 7.00. She's just babbling.

I feel much better after a "rest" tonight. Encouraged also. Will work on the swaddle and reduce the awake time, less hands on etc.

[Colin Macs Mom]

Good for you! Just keep at it and one day you will find that things are PARADISE! 

[waffler]

Well, we're seeing some improvement. I don't feed her to sleep at bedtime anymore. Takes a long time to settle her though, but it can be done. Yesterday i didnt do a cluster feed, and she woke at 11.30 and 4.30 as normal, but also woke at 2.30. Wonder whether this has anything to do with it. I fed her at 1130 and 430 as it was bout 5 hrs since last feed.

Wondering whether I ought to try to not do cluster, but wake her at 11pm for a dreamfeed? She has been consistently waking around 1130 at night. I feed her then.

Re swaddling, i noticed tonight that when i left her room when she was mid scream (this was while trying to put her down at bedtime - i had to pee!) then when i came back, both arms were out but she was sucking on fingers. and she seemed calm. So this is definitely making her happier. Although, her arms still flail like mad. I'm probably showing my age here, but does anyone remember "Lost in space" on TV back in the late 70s? well when the robot goes "Danger Mr Robinson" and his arms go round and round? Well, that's what mira's arms are like! So I think she needs the swaddle to control it, but... she likes sucking. Tried the aussie swaddle but that didnt seem to work.

Her daytime naps are a bit erratic but i'm seeing a trend. Her longest nap is the morning nap. We always need to resettle her after 30-40 mins to get her to keep going. The afternoon nap is a bit harder, and lastly, the catnap, she has been doing consistently 30 mins so we've accepted that.

So, all in all, we are seeing some improvement daily, and I think things will get better as long as we are consistent Thanks for all your help. and HOpefully, one day I'll post that we have been successful hurrah!

[waffler]

Hm think i spoke too soon....

This is night #4, and this has happened again : after we eventually get her settled at bedtime, she wakes again 20-35 mins later. And she is screaming. DH is with her now, struggling to settle her

Any idea why she's doing this? Takes about an hour to settle her back to sleep, from what the other 3 nights are to go by.

[waffler]

We've had a mix of a day. Last night, after her bout of screaming, DH put her down to bed at 9.20, and she did not wake until 630 am!!! This is a first. We were happy. I fed her at 6.30, and we started our day at 7 basically. She got sleepy round 8.15, wound her down, and she went for her morning nap at 10.25. She Slept a whole two hours!!! Didnt wake at all - another first. We had to wake her at 10.30. Had her bath, fed at 11. Oh, btw, during the wound down, we topped her up with 50ml of expressed breast milk (EBM) which i had expressed from her first feed.

For her 2nd nap, think we tried to put her down too early, because it was a bit harder. But she went down at 12.30 or so. Again, we gave 50ml of EBM to top her off. Both naps, easy to get her to sleep. Swaddled, she didnt cry, patshush and she was asleep within 10 mins. For this nap, she slept in 3 phases, of 40+30+15 mins. Finally didnt want to sleep at 2.15 pm.

Fed her at 3pm. And was asleep for catnap at 4.20. She woke at 5pm on the dot. I gave her a very brief feed but she wasnt very intersted. Then, we went for our walk, and she got grizzly round 6.20. THing is , then i was just starting her massage. which was followed by a bath, and I started to feed her her dinner at 6.40, with the intention of getting her to bed by 7pm. But, she wasn't very sleepy. So i just walked her in her room, we listened to some relaxing music, i read her a book (which i never do at bedtime. normally its feed, swaddle, sleep - or rather i used to b/f  her to sleep). Well, i waited for tired signs which didnt actually come. but at the first sign of a grizzle, i put her in cot ,swaddled her. She looked up at me with scared eyes and started to cry. That was at 7.20 pm and its now 8.30 pm - DH with her now. She cried so hard she vomited and we had to change her PJs and sheets. He is now topping her off with 100ml of EBM - hoping this will calm her down.

We can't figure out whats wrong. Are we starting this whole routine too late? I thought with a better catnap today of 40 mins, and waking at 5pm, we cld make it to a 7pm bedtime.

To summarise the day, here it is :

0630 : woke and E
0825-1030 : S
1100 : E
1230-2.15 : S (40+30+15 mins)
3.00 : E
4.20-5.00 : S
5.00 : E (top up)
6.40 : E
and the rest, well, she is still awake.

[waffler]

So here's what's going on. I'm not sure whether this board is still where I ought to post this, but i'll leave it here until decide otherwise....

Improvements :
- No more feeding to sleep
- No more rockng to sleep
- Last 2 mornings have slept 2 hours straight for her nap

Problems :
- Her 2nd nap of the day is not good. Read book by Marc Weissbluth that the afternoon nap develops btween 5-8 months. Do I just have to keep trying until one day it gets better?
- Catnap - today she woke after 25 mins, i pat/shsh her she went another 15, then 20 mins. Total 1 hour. But i'm still getting the timing wrong for the night sleep!!!

Today's routine looked like this :
(btw after her bedtime of 9pm, she woke 1.30 i fed her, and then she started making noise at 6am-ish, but wasn't cryig. didnt go in until 6.30 am to feed her. Started the day with lights on at 7am.)

6.30 E
8.15-10.15 S (2hrs)
11.00 E
1230-1.00 S (30mins)
3.00 E
3.50 - 5.15 S (25+15+20). We woke her at 5.15 so as to protect night sleep.
6.20 Massage, bath bedtime routine.
6.40 E
And then I waited it out till she was showing sleepy signs to put her down.
At this stage, she was getting grizzly, so i put her in cot, swaddled, said phrase, put on "womb machine", switched of light and started patshsush (this worked really well for her naps the last 3 days). She started soft whining, then yawned few times - this normally is a good sign for her naps! But, after like, 15 mins, the cries escalated and she was wide awake. So I gave up.

DH is upstairs with her now. He's just trying to spend some quiet time with her, we think we've missed her sleep window. The last 4 nights she's been having this prob of falling asleep (since tuesday i hvae not b/f her to sleep) and only finally falls asleep around 9pm.

So, am i still leaving it too late? I figured with a 1 hour total nap, ending at 5.15, I thought maybe we cld stretch it out a bit. And really, she wasn't overtired when i fed her. I read like, 5 books? And THEN she started to get sleepy. I don't know really what the prob is.

I didnt feed her at 5pm today. And only gave ebm for the first feed.

[waffler]

Problems

Todays naps went well, as in, we can put her down awake. First nap, 2 hrs. 2nd nap 30+20 mins. Catnap, 40 mins. The problem is, at bedtime, she just cant be put to bed.

Last night, I finally had to feed her, she'd been screaming for over 2 hours, and we weren't sure if she was thirsty/hungry. So I fed her, she was SO tired. She started to nod off. So I gently took her off, put her in her cot, and started to swaddle her. She opened her eyes and was clearly very sleepy. But she went straight to sleep, didnt wake till 6.40 am.

We are having the same prob today. DH up again with her. THis is what the routine was like today :
6.40 she woke
7.00 E
8.30-11.00 S (2.5 hrs)
11.00 E
1.10 - 2.30 S (30+20 mins only)
3.00 E
4.20-5.00 S (catnap of 40 mins)
Took her for walk. Was aiming for bed routine at 6.10 with intention to feed at 6.30, and bed by 6.45 BUT....

At 6.05 she started to rub her eyes. At this stage we had just started bed routine, and I panicked I thought, i cant put her down now, she won't have gone thru her bed routine! So I proceeded with massage and bath. By time fed her at around 6.25 she was totally grizzly and wouldnt feed. SO I tried to put her to bed then, but wouldnt work. SO fed her, and have tried so many times now to put her to bed. She was near hysterical. So cuddled her, had h/dryer on to soothe her. And when i thought she was really calm and quiet, waited 10 mins, I put her in cot. She started screaming hysterically as soon as her head hit pillow.

This has been going on for a week or so now. I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong. Should I have put her bedtime at 6pm then? I didnt think she'd be that sleepy an hour after her catnap though.

Any ideas?

[Zoey]

Hiya!

I would try to not have such a long first nap - babies have like a quota lol, if you use a whole bunch of sleep up with the first nap, she isn't going to wanna sleep for the rest and then she is going to be overtired at bedtime.

So I would suggest 1h30m first nap, 1h30m-2h 2nd nap and 30mins catnap.  Also, I can't remember if you have added A time anytime soon but I would maybe add 10-15mins to the Second A time and see how that goes too?

If 630ish seems to be the time she keeps waking, I would tend to think that is her biological wake time and go with it.  If she is up at 630ish she needs to be asleep at night by 645/7pmish.

Remember the catnap is a freebie, take it anyway she will sleep - car ride, swing, stroller, whatever, don't fight for this nap.

If you are feeding 7,11,3 try the last feed at 6/615, then bath, top-ff if you do this sorta thing, wind down and in the crib by 645/7 the lastest.

I hope this helps some, I am sorry things are still wacky!  Hang in there you really are doing great hun.

Love,
Zoey

[waffler]

I DONT GET IT!!!!

Okay, DH is upstairs with her again (i sound like a broken record) and its 8pm and she is screaming hysterically!
We are trying to figure out what we are doing wrong at bedtime Last night we finally got her asleep by 9.30 and miraculously, she only woke up at 7am. So, that is going well.... And naps are going well. The only problem now is getting her to go to sleep at bedtime.

I'll post what happened today so you are on the same page :

Wake 7.00, and eat
8.30 - 10.00 S (she woke naturally after 90 mins)
11.00 E
1.10 - 2.30 S (this was a 30+70 min nap)
3.00 E
4.45-5.15 Catnap in car

Okay, so i figured, we'll massage/bath 6pm, feed by 6.15 and hopefully be in bed 630/645. No way. At 5.30, yes, 5.30, she started yawning. Could this be for real??? She only woke 15 mins b4 that!!! So i ignored her yawning. We were out on a walk anyway, not much i cld do at that stage...

She was fine during her bed routine, and fine during her feed. Then at the end of it, she started grumbling. I tried read a story, and take it easy with a wind down. But she wasnt having any of it. And ... i am ashamed to admit, i b/f her again to soothe her.... She didnt sleep at all though. SO put her back in cot wide awake, and swaddled etc but she was just hysterical. So DH took over cos we thought maybe its ME that keeps her awake. Perhaps she's thinking "hey, this is not our routine. You feed me to sleep. so why aren't you doing this now?" Dunno. But, i can hear her screaming and screaming and I feel so sorry for both her and DH. It's awful. Its been a week now and this is just what happens.

I'm at a loss. I'm not feeding her to sleep. I'm not missing her sleepy signs I dont think (not today anyway.. despite her yawning at 5.30). WHy oh why oh why is she so hard to put down at bed?

Pls help... tomorow i may try to feed her first, then her bed routine. And see what happens. But this is disastrous. I'm so tempted to go up and feed her to soothe her... she may nod off on the breast....

Should we just take her out of nursery when she screams and have quiet play with her to catch the next window?

I'm so sorry I have all these questions, but its driving me insane. And I know it's about the same bloomin' thing over and over.... I feel like I'm wasting everyone's time here but I really need help 

[Zoey]

Aww sweetie, you aren't wasting anyone's anything!

Ok let's stop and regroup. 

I see a walk before bedtime mentioned a few times - perhaps that is too stimulating, or something!  Let's cut that out for 7days and see what happens.  Do it earlier in the daytime.  Keep your daytime naps limited to; 1h30m first nap, 1h30m-2h 2nd nap and 30mins catnap --> freebie in the car is fine and dandy. 

I want you to try her last feed at 6/615, then bath and massage, top-off if you do this, OUT of the nursery, then go in wind down (5-10mins max) and in the crib by 645/7 the latest.

Stay strong, no feeding for comfort, that is sending mixed signals. Use your pat/shh when she cries not your breast.  Crying is ok, I know (goodness do I know) it's so hard to hear, and makes you so sad - but really, she is OK.  She can't say to you guys, "Uhm...yeah, I really liked the feeding to sleep idea guys - this pat/shh crap stinks!"  So, instead she cries!  This is her way of telling you how she feels about this situation.  As long as you or DH is with her and attempting to soothe her, she is really ok.  You aren't hurting her, you are teaching her a fabulous skill. 

At night, I would not take her anywhere.  At night we pat/shh until she is asleep.  Stay strong, stick with your plan.  You can do this, and she can too.

Yawning doesn't always mean, 'I am sleepy'.  I say this because when we started Easy at 4m I would always put Owen to bed when I saw yawning and he always would have a REALLY hard time going down, then wake at 45mins - why?  Cause he wasn't sleepy tired, and was bored tired lol.  Sometimes a change in activity helps too.  Do you have any baby einstein dvds?  I highly rec them, they are 30mins and will hold just about any babys attention for 30mins!  They have classical music too so it's not just an empty show they look at.  We love baby E, Owen's watches one every night before bedtime while I scurry around getting his bottle and bath stuff ready.

I hope this helps some - remember for every change you make, you must give it some days to work.  Sometimes it takes a week to see changes - so perhaps try the suggestions and wait and see what happens?

Lots of love - I admire your patience and strength woman!
Zoey

[waffler]

Thanks zoey... will try that plan ./ BTW, why do the top up feed outside the nursery??

[Zoey]

Because if there was a feed to sleep association, and your goal is to completely eliminate that - you want feeding to be completely seperate from the sleep stuff.  Meaning you don't want it in the room or part of anything to do with sleep or falling sleep.  Make feeding it's own entity, not part of the wind down.  There really shouldn't be any feeding in the nursery unless its a night waking for a feeding.  Make sense?

Good Luck hunny!

Love,
Zoey

[waffler]

This is what happened yesterday (I feel like I am back in school writing my reports!!)

0600 woke, fed
0630 back in cot asleep
0730 woke and fed
0915-1100 sleep
1100 eat
1250-1.20 Sleep (couldnt extend)
3.00 Eat
4.20 - 5.00 Catnap
6.00 Feed
6.10 massage and bath, then topup feed
6.30 wind down, swaddled by 6.40 as tired
Screamed, but went down asleep at 7.10pm
8.10 Woke, patshush back to bed
Then, slept right thru to 3 am, where I fed her. Put her back in her cot awake, took about 15 mins to get her back to sleep by patshush but she was quiet. And we started the day at 7am. Btw, my husband was the one who put her to bed, as we wanted to see if it would be easier without me there as she may want me to feed her. eVERY night b4 this, we've started with me putting her to bed and dh taking over. well, dunno what it was that worked, but last nite went quite well....

Today, pretty much same routine, but her naps looked like this.
9.00-10.20 1st nap
12.30-3.00 2nd nap but it was broken up into 10+40+40
Didnt get a catnap went out, thought she'd sleep in car seat but no luck. So we started our night routine today 15 mins earlier at 5.45. DH upstairs with her trying to put down, will post later and tell u what happened!

[waffler]

SIDE ISSUE

I have not given her a dreamfeed for 4 months or so. And when she was sleeping at 9ish pm she would sleep right thru to 6-7 without needing a feed. But last night, she woke at 3 am. I'm wondering, once the dust has settled and we find out what her routine at night is going to be like, should i be introducing a DF ? Or just let her go with the flow? The reason I stopped it when she was really little was she just didnt drink much milk at all and would wake an hour later.