Transitioning 3-4 hr , now with night wakings

[Zoey]

HI there girl!

This: 1250-1.20 Sleep (couldnt extend)  - she probably didn't sleep longer because she was only awake from 11 to 1250, short A time leads to a short nap because she wasn't tired enough to need more then that much sleep - but then her next A time is 3h hours long on only 30mins of sleep - so now she is way overtired.  Her catnap is 40mins but that isn't enough to combat being awake from 1250-420 with only 30mins of sleep.  So, yes she sleeps for 40mins which isn't that restorative either and still goes to bed overtired so you still have a bit of trouble.  Does this make sense? 

I would try really really hard to stick to proper A times, especially long enough ones because a short nap really throws things for a loop routine wise.  Next time if you can't extend, know that her A time after the short nap must be shorter - you feed, wait for sleepy cues and put her down immed or you feed wait 45mins and put her down - whichever comes first.  Yes this may make for an extra lil nap in there but you have to stop letting her get overtired.  Also, limit her nap lengths - 1.5h am nap, 1.5-2h pm nap and 30min catnap.  This means waking her when you get to the nap limit.  The idea of the day is, awake for 2h15m-2h30m, then sleep for 1h30m, awake 2h15m-2h30m, sleep for 1h30m-2h, awake for 2h15m-2h30m, sleep for 30m, awake for an 1h or so, bed - there is wiggle room, but you can see there is a balance.

The DF - starting at 5m could go either way.  It could help or it could create more nightwakings.  It could be she is starting a growth spurt.  My best advice is to increase her daytime calories - giving her as much as she will take at her feedings, topping off before bed and seeing how that goes.  It really isn't uncommon at all to have atleast one night waking even with a DF, so you may be better off increasing her day intake and except a night feeding if there seems to be one.  It's up to you though, I would probably get sleep fixed completely and see what she does.  Also, always give a 3day limit - meaning, if something odd happens say an unexpected night waking, wait and see what the next day brings before panicking and making big changes - it sometimes is a fluke or in the case with some nightwakings, simply increasing her daytime intake may eliminate the trouble.

Everything seems better though, you are definately heading in the right direction - I hope my writing it out above helps you.  Keep it up, I hope you can see the progress - just keep pushing for the right balance.

Love,
Zoey

[waffler]

I've been waiting a few days to see what happens. Everything appears to be getting worse *sob*

She has started rolling over, which has meant that she wakes at night. Sometimes its easy to put her back to sleep, but we had one night of 3 hours of crying. So we're not sure how to get around this problem. Her arms get out pretty quick from the swaddle, so  we're not too worried about her sleeping on her tummy. I've walked in to check on her, and she's been sound asleep on her tum, with arms out. But sometimes she does wake up.

The other thing is, a week or so ago, she could go down for 2 hours in the morning, but now, does a 40 + whatever we manage to extend. Perhaps this is because the previkous night she went to sleep around 9.30 because we just couldn't get her to sleep.

We have (I think!) managed to get her to not expect to be fed before bed. But it's still not easy. and i think it's because she is overtired. We try to make sure she has her 3 naps. But the catnap is very hard to instill. Couple of times, I took her out, expecting her to sleep in the car, but no way. We bring her bedtime earlier but it's still very hard to juggle. Yesterday, she napped 30 mins, but the prob was, she woke at 5.15. And we started her bedtime around 6.30-645, but she just wasnt tired. Finally went to bed at 8.30. What should we do if this happens again?

Tonight is frustrating. I managed to get her asleep by 6.30 pm (She didnt catnap, and her day naps weren't very good). But, just as I was creeping out of her room at 7pm, she woke, and has been hysterical for the last 2 hours. And we just cant pat shush her to sleep. I'm beginning to think that this is just not working.

Is it normal to have a regression? I was so frustrated I felt like walking out the door and never coming back. It's looking rather bleak in our house tonight

[Zoey]

Oh hunny, I've been there - it's going to be ok.  HUGS

So for three days you tried to stick to the plan and did anything get better at all?  What were your A times before each nap and before bedtime for these three days?  How long was Each Nap?  Yes, it is common to have regressions - but if she is rolling, that is developmental and causes trouble with sleeping.

Do you think she could be ill - ear infection, or teething something like this?  Is she hungry, going through a growth spurt?  Are you exclusively BFing or are you pumping?  How many times did she wake in the past three nights and what did you do at the waking?  Did you try a DF?  How are you extending her nap?  Does she scream everytime you lay her flat?

My opinion is when babies start to roll over it isn't safe to swaddle anymore.  This is my opinion and naturally you can do what you want - but I felt it important to state my opinion.  Perhaps, if she is busting her arm out of the swaddle AND rolling, you may want to try swaddling from her armpits down?  Are you using a pacifier?

Zoey

[waffler]

(my answers in caps)

So for three days you tried to stick to the plan and did anything get better at all? WHAT SEEMED TO GET BETTER WAS THAT AT BEDTIME SHE WAS EASIER TO PUT DOWN, BUT AGAIN, WASNT ME THAT PUT HER DOWN. ALTHOUGH 2 OF THE 3 DAYS WE COULDNT GET HER TO CATNAP

What were your A times before each nap and before bedtime for these three days? WE TRIED TO GET PAST 2 HOURS A TIME FOR NAPS, BUT COULD BARELY MANAGE ANYTHNING PAST 2 HOURS. FOR BEDTIME IF THERE WAS NO CATNAP, AFTER HAVING TRIED UNTIL 5PM, WE'D START BED ROUTINE AT 5.45. SO HER  A TIME WAS AROUND 2.45 HOURS UNTIL HER ROUTINE. YES I KNOW ITS LONG.

How long was Each Nap? THE MORNING NAPS WERE 40+60 MAYBE. WE TRIED NOT TO GO PAST 90  MINS. THE 2ND NAP WE TRIED TO GET TO 1.5 OR TO 2HOURS, NORMALLY SHE'D WAKE AFTER THE FIRST 40  MINS AND WE'D P/S HER BACK

Do you think she could be ill - ear infection, or teething something like this? SHE SEEMS FINE, DOESNT SEEM TO BE TEETHING YET
 Is she hungry, going through a growth spurt? DOESNT SEEM TO BE HUNGRY, NOT MORE THAN USUAL

Are you exclusively BFing or are you pumping? I STOPPED PUMPING A WEEK AGO. WAS B/F EXCLUSIVELY

How many times did she wake in the past three nights and what did you do at the waking? SHE'D NORMALLY WAKE ONLY ONCE, AT MOST TWICE. I'D FEED HER AT ONE OF THE FEEDS, DEPENDING ON THE TIME. NORMALLY FEED HER AT THE 2/ OR 3 AM FEED

Did you try a DF? NO D/F BUT ONCE SHE WOKE 10PM SO I'D FEED HER THEN

 How are you extending her nap? PATSHUSH. IF SHE CRIES QUIETLY WE P/S. BUT IF ITS HARD CRYUING WE PICK UP UNTIL CALM. THEN P/S IN BED.  Does she scream everytime you lay her flat?NO NOT EVERYTIME. SOMETIMES VERY CALM. SHE DID HAVE REFLUX BUT I AM 100% sure thAT IS NOT A PROB ANYMORE.


My opinion is when babies start to roll over it isn't safe to swaddle anymore.  This is my opinion and naturally you can do what you want - but I felt it important to state my opinion.  Perhaps, if she is busting her arm out of the swaddle AND rolling, you may want to try swaddling from her armpits down? THE PROB WTH UNDER THE ARM SWADDLING IS HER ARMS FLAIL WILDLY AND ITS HARD TO CALM HER WHEN WE PUT HER DOWN TO BED. LAST NITE, HER ARM CAME OUT AS SHE WAS DRIFITING OFF, I HELD ON TO HER HAND UNTIL SHE WAS FAST ASLEEP TO HELP WITH THE JOLTS. BUT YES, WE WANT TO WEAN HER OFF THE SWADDLE
 Are you using a pacifier? NO, NEVER BEEN ADDICTED TO IT

last night we finally got her asleep by 9.30pm, she rolled over in the nite, but both arms were out anyway. she woke at 6.30 am. And we are starting our day now. I suspect last nite was so bad because she was so overtired, didnt have any decent naps in the day. we'll start again today and try to figure out what's wrong.

Thanks zoey.... appreciate your support sooooooooooooo much!

[Zoey]

You're welcome sweetie, I am determined to figure this out with you!  Even if we are here for a year LOL - Just kidding of course!

Ok a few more questions.

1) When you put her down for a nap, tell me how you do this.  Are you patting her all the way til she is asleep ever?

2) When you say - She can barely make it 2hours of A times... what does she do that makes you think this?  Are you trying to extend the A time by 5 mins every 2-3 days?  For those 5 mins you can walk around the house, or read a book, or practice rolling, or anything like this just to extend it.  What is she doing?  I ask this because she is missing her catnap and going 45mins PLUS past the 2h mark - I am just trying to figure out why she 'can't' in the daytime?

3) So you are formula feeding now?

4) Does she sleep better on her tummy?  Or no difference?  How are you planning to wean the swaddle.  Is she 5.5m now?

Zoe

[waffler]

Lets hope this wont last a year eh? LOL

1) Okay this is what we do for naps. After about 1h30 - 1h45 awake, we go upstairs, put on her special music, dim lights, and start reading books. She enjoys this, trying to head butt them or eat them! But as soon as she arches her back and starts grizzling, this is her cue that she is tired. (Sometimes she yawns and rubs eyes). THen I cuddle her for a bit, put her in cot, swaddle her. All the while talking softly. Then switch lights off, and pat her on her chest while holding her hands with the other hand. ANd lately yes, we p/s till she's fast asleep. I normally sit with her for a bit too. We were hoping we'd progress to p/s for a bit then walk out while she's sleepy, but because there have been some hiccups along the way we've gone back to sitting with her.

2) I'm afraid of missing her sleep window, so we go upstairs to her room, and go thru the steps i outlined above. We have actually come from something like 1h50m to close to 2h now, but i think it will be a couple of wks b4 we get to 2h15. We have better chance of extending the awake time with the 1st nap because she's had more hours asleep. its the 2nd nap and catnap that we have trouble extending the time. Do u think we are spending too much time winding down in her room? It takes about 10-15 mins from time we walk in to lights off.

3) No, 100% breast feeding

4) You know, she appears to really like her tum. She just gets frustrated when her arm gets stuck. But I've noticed that if she manages to roll over and not get her arm stuck, then yes, she sleeps quite well. We are planning to wean her off the swaddle by keeping one arm out first. But, if her arm is flailing wildly, then this is the plan :

Lay her on blanket, swaddle right arm, tuck under. Then bring left arm down, bring blanket over but DONT tuck in. Once she is asleep and not jolting, then i gently bring that left arm OVER the blanket, then tuck the blanket under.

She does have a Grobag sleep sack but the arm thing... FUnnily enuf, DH yday put her down for her nap and left the arm out and she slept ok. But with the other naps, didnt work, my guess is that she was overtired and hence jolting.

[waffler]

Oh, she is corrected age , 5 months 5 days!! Actual age, 6 mths 5 days

[Zoey]

Well goodness I am gonna move in with you if this goes on for a year! LOL

1) Ready?  Ok!  For the first nap, I don't want you to enter the nursery until 1h and 50mins has gone by since she woke up.  I know it will be hard, but bring your books down stairs and head butt them there lol.  It seems she is associating her room with sleep - I don't think it's odd at all that once in there she start yawning and all that.  So, don't enter the SLEEP room til 1h50m from when she woke up.  She is desperately asking for more A time, and we need to accommodate her.   After 1h50m then go up to her room, dim the lights, put on the music, and read a book, when it's done change her, swaddle her (or not) and sit for a moment for a cuddle - then into the crib.  It should take about 10mins, no more.  Now, my love - holding her hands, and patting her to sleep are going to become, if not already props - I suggest stopping this!  So, we are in the crib and we say I love you cutie pie, see you when you wake up or whatever - and we leave!  Wait outside her room, if she cries properly, A Mom I need you NOW! Cry, you go back in, and do your pat/shh thing.  You slow your pat/shh when you see she is beginning to settle, and stop - leaving a hand on her for a moment to be sure she will still be going along ok.  Then, when she is carrying on by herself you let go and you step back and let her do her thing.  You go back to her only if she cries a proper cry again, and repeat.  I can tell you these things will be easier to wean now then months from now.  She is 5months and it isn't unrealistic for her to be able to do this, know what I mean?  For the second nap and before the catnap, you go up there at 2h exactly for 3 days, then 2h5m for 3 days then 2h10mins for 3 days then 2h15m and stay there for a bit.  Each time doing your 10mins wind down when you get up there.  After the catnap, she will, as you know - not be able to handle a full A time, but stick with your 10min wind down time, after the bath, top off.

2) Again, I think you are spending far too much time in her room if you go up at 1h30m.  It's good she associates her room with sleep - but going up there too early is going to make her feel sleepy.  It is very common to have the SHORTEST A time first, then longer as the day goes on, because the first nap is viewed as an extension of night sleep.  So, if any are to be 2h - its this one, with the rest being 2h15m-2h30m.  I think if you stop going up to her room so soon and having this long drawn out wind down, you may start to see she can actually tolerate 2h plus, great.

3) OK!  Awesome!

4) Well, some babies perfer tum sleeping.  You will have to discuss tummy sleeping with your pedi because of SIDS and all that jazz though.  What ever swaddle wean you choose just be sure she isn't going to get tangled up in all of it.  Also, remember LOTS of tummy time and rolling practice during A time, perhaps right after her nap would be a good time, so she get learn to roll and get her arm unstuck and all that.  If the wean arm thingy doesn't work, you can also just cold turkey it lol.

Also, don't forget all the other stuff from before.  I think your short napping is the props, and her screaming for some more A time.  For props think of this - if you hold her hands and pat all the way to sleep - each time she wakes (they come to a very light sleep at 30-45mins - and if things aren't just so they can wake up - which is fine unless....) she will cry for you to come and re-create all those lovely things you do to help put her to sleep.  If you just pat/shh her til she is settling and going off, then let her do the rest, and help her less and less as time goes by - she will be learning how to self soothe and can do that for herself when/if she wakes up.  If you are always holding her hands etc, she isn't going to figure out what she should be doing with them - know what I mean?

Ok, that's all I have for now.  I know it seems like you will be pat/shhing your life away, but doing the things you are may seem to be making it easier now, but in the long run - its going to be harder to wean them as she gets older.  Besides we want her to sleep independently right?

Love,
Zoey

[Zoey]

PS, have I mentioned that she is absolutely adorable?  Well she IS!

[waffler]

Zoey you're an angel

Okay. Have read thru your post and have printed it so can refer to it. We'll follow your plan for the naps starting tomorrow. Have a few questions though.

Today, she woke at 6.30 am. Morning nap was 1h40, afternoon nap was 35+50+50, woke her up as it was close to her next feed. That was at 2.45 (we started the day a bit early so her feeds all were a bit early too). So technically, her catnap should be around 4.45 right? Trouble i've found is, if she sleeps past 5 then she seems to be very awake for her bedtime. And what I'm finding hard to juggle is the time after catnap, and when to start her bed routine. Today, her catnap was from 4.50 (took a while to put down) and I woke her at 5.10, a 20min nap. Thought I'd start her feed & routine at 6.10, but started at 6pm as she seemed a tad grumpy. Well, around 6.20 we went back to her room for book reading. She was grumpy. So put her in cot, swaddled, and I kept the light on a bit as that seemed to calm her. Then, lights out, and her arm came out of the swaddle and the screaming started. ANyway. The point is, that I never know when to start her bed routine as it depends on so many things - what time she woke, quality and lenght of naps, her catnap. ANd I always seem to get it wrong! It's quite frustrating. She finally went to bed at 7.45pm, but was all jerky, I believe cos she was overtired.

So, starting tomorrow, once she cries for help, i walk in, and p/s then when she's calm i stop. What if she screams. Do i pick her up to calm? Then put her down and p/s. And if she calms, do i stay in the room waiting? Or walk out?

Also, when all her A times are extended, it would appear that her catnap wld start really late. For instance:
0700 Wake and eat
0900 Nap 1.5 hrs
1030 wake
1100 Eat
1.15 nap 1h45m
3.00 wake and eat
5.15 (2h15m activity) start catnap?
Then, she'd wake at 5.45 and to me, this seems really late to be waking given her bedtime will be around 7pm. What do u think?

Y'know, spoke to DH yday and we said for kiddo#2 (not for a while yet !!!) we'd start over, and hopefully learn from our mistakes. I've actually started a journal, so that when #2 comes I can read thru it and see where I went wrong so we dont make the same mistakes!! Also so that Mira can read it when she becomes a mum because I'm sure she'll have loads of questions for me ! (and, so that when she's a teenager and wants her curfew extended to go to some party I can say "No, because when you were a baby, you were bla bla bla" and actually have proof )

PS If i lived in the US I'd take u up on your offer to move in and help sort out probs out LOL

[Zoey]

 

For the catnap - this may help...

If she sleeps for 1h30m she can then stay up for 2h-2h15m-2h30m on that much sleep - she (will) tolerates this well.  So, if her catnap is only 30mins - which is what it should be - she can't handle a whole full A time before bed because we just use this wee nap as a tiny booster to get us to bed.  I'd say she could be up 1h30m/1h45m after the catnap - maybe more, maybe less - you will have to test it out lol - but that's easy to do.  That means she should be in the crib at the end of that time - or she crosses into overtired land, and vacationing there isn't so great.  If she can only handle 2h-2h15m of A time all day long, it wouldn't make sense that she could stand more then that at the end of the day, especially on a 30min nap.  Make sense?  So with A times increased it will be:

0700 Wake and eat - A time begins here
0850 Wind down
0900 Nap 1h30m - A time ends here = 2h
1030 wake - A time begins here
1100 Eat
1235 Wind down
1245 nap 1h45m - A time ends here = 2h15m
230 wake - A time begins here
300 Eat
440 Wind down
445 Catnap 30mins - A time ends here = 2h15m
515 wake - A time begins here
6/615 Eat, bath, top off, wind down
645/7pm Sleep - A time ends here = 1h30m/1h45m

Really try to limit her naps - especially the first one, I know it's hard to wake them - I wake my son at every AM nap- EVERYDAY lol.  We need to strike a balance, waking her and spreading her day sleep out over the entire day nicely will help do this.  I think sticking to times as best you can will be helpful to her, she needs you to teach her what to expect - if things happen at a different time each night - she won't know what to do and what to expect - does that make sense?  If the clock is hard to watch, keep track of her A times in your head - regardless of what time anything was - have her in bed 1h30m/1h45m after the last wake up and that should be safe.

If she screams?  Well my love - she is going to scream cause you are changing things, its her way of communicating.  She would probably much rather you stay and put her to sleep then having to do it herself - but she needs to.  I would not pick her up unless she is frantic.  Not just crying - frantically crying.  Put her on your shoulder while you are standing - no swaying or bouncing, just pat her back and shhh or hum, whatever.  When she is calming down, put her back in the crib and pat/shh more in there.  Other then that frantic part, I wouldn't pick her up at all.  She will cry, but she will be ok - it isn't hurting, she is just tired, frustrated, stuff like this. 

When she starts to mantra cry or seems to be settling, as if she is going off to sleep - this is when you want to try not to touch her - let her do this by herself.  When she starts this settling, this is when you are going to slow your pat, and stop - see if she is still ok, and let go.  Step back and listen, if she is going off ok - you can leave or you can duck out of site and be quiet if you want to, go back to her if she cries saying I need you.  Help her as much as she needs, no more, no less - its her job to fall asleep, not your to make her.

I don't think you are making ANY mistakes, None.  These babies don't come with directions LOL.  Your next baby probably won't have any trouble sleeping at all LOL.  Really, you and your baby are learning together what she needs - these aren't mistakes.  You know what else?  Eventually this is all going to click into place - and then you are going to be helping other mums with similar troubles and the prospect of a new baby - you will say BRING IT ON!  LOL - you watch!

Ok, I'm off - I hope this helps some!
Love,
Zoey

[waffler]

what a disaster! Today is off to a bad start. Last nite, she woke 1030pm as she flipped over, and i thought may as well feed her. That went ok. Then she woke at 5.30am. I went in and she had flipped over. This was 7 hrs from last feed and i was unsure whether to feed her as it was so close to 7am. Tried to resettle but she began crying, so thought "ok, she's awake and must be hungry" so fed her. Well, tried to put her down after but she was pretty wide awake. Cried. Arm out. P/S didnt work. At this stage was about 6.25 so thought, I'll just leave her here. She ws just crying softly. went to make a cuppa tea, heard her crying softly, then quiet.. thought wow she's asleep. But a few mins later, soft crying again, then at 6.55 bang on screaming. So walked in, made the room bright and woke her up to start the day. Changed nappy. Then continued to finish off the feed. She was so sleepy. I mean, at this stage she'd been up for 2 hours right? Well... I decided to put her down to sleep at 7.30 am!!! This is really going to mess up the day!!!!

Think i'm gonna have to play this day by ear....   

[Zoey]

Just do your best.  Lemme tell you hunny - we very rarely have a perfect day LOL.  Each day is a new adventure for most of us.  Developmental milestones, like rolling, you just kinda have to ride the wave and offer lots of time to practice.  Today may be off, but it will also make you appreciate the days that aren't so off, more!

It will be ok - keep with the idea of Easy, eat, play, sleep - feed her at her feed times and put her down when she seems sleepy and do your best at the times.  Tomorrow is a new day my friend!

Good Luck!
Zoey

[Colin Macs Mom]

Gotta ditto Zoey - there really is hardly ever a perfect day. Just keep at it and go with the flow. Change takes time and that's okay.

[waffler]

(I know you're probably shaking your head and saying "oh no not HER again"... sorry... )

Well, it's day 2 of us trying to get her to sleep on her own. And it ain't goin' too well! I suppose I can't expect miracles, but because we had considerably fast results with cutting out the props (b/f to sleep and rocking) I kinda hoped this would be a piece of cake too.

The first time we did it, it went kinda well. Walked out door, she cried softly, for few mins then hard on crying. So went in, didnt pick up, lay a hand on her till she calmed, then closed eyes (moved hand) then she slept. Well, this nap only lasted 30 mins then it was impossible to get her to sleep again. Needless to day, she was very overtired at bedtime and it was a 3 hour struggle to get her to sleep. She woke once at 1 am wher i fed her, then again around 7ish.

Today, kinda same thing. The first nap was (Relatively) okay, as in, she still did cry, but wasn't hysterical so all she needed was a hand to calm her. I know it may be better to go cold turkey but I want to ease her into this new change. The other naps - no go. The catnap, we went out, hoping she'd sleep but she didnt. SO came home, got her into her cot at 4.50pm (She woke from her las tnap at 2.50pm) and did the whole swaddle, kiss, walk out. She cried for a minute, then babbled, then cried, then coo'd, then cried then REALLY CRIED. So walked back in but she just was inconsoloable until i picked her up. Thing is, after a few of this, i put her down at 5.05 and thought "this is ridiculous, i need her to wake by 5.15" so at 5.10 i took her out of the room. Started the bed routine at 5.45 and DH with her now trying to get her to sleep. I figured, i am the weakest link what with being equipped with the boob-machine, and I cave and get so frustrated, that DH will be the one to get her used to the 'new' way....

So, is it really sposed to be this hard?? I'm sure the answer is "yes but it will get better". Sigh... i just want it to get beter soon... i started this thread weeks ago... Guess i'm so frustrated cos it was getting better, and now that we are introducing the concept of getting her to sleep TOTALLY independently, it's just getting worse...

Trying to introduce a lovey, but she hasn't taken to anything yet. And she doesnt like sucking on her thumb - this girl is determined to get to sleep the hard way!!