Transitioning 3-4 hr , now with night wakings

[Zoey]

I know you're frustrated and I'm sorry.  I wish I or someone had answers for you.  There are a few things I know:  Babies don't sleep well with props, babies don't sleep well with inadequate A times.  You did an awesome job weaning the BFing to sleep, and rocking - but you kind of replaced those props with other things to put her to sleep, know what I mean?  I know it's hard, really I do - I have been where you are. 

That said, you have to remember something.  There is no right and wrong in this.  If you want to rock, cuddle, hold, put you baby to sleep - whatever way, that is perfectly fine.  It's about what works for you and your baby.  If teaching her how to sleep isn't something that goes along with your family plan - then don't do it.  All I can do is point out things that could potentially be standing in her way of sleeping - and offer solutions.  It is completely up to you what you do with what is suggested lol. 

So, do what you want sweetie.  There are no rules, just suggestions.  If you were happy where things were before you introduced the notion of teaching sleep - then don't, that is ok.  If she is sleeping well for her naps and only waking twice in the night to feed, and is cranky at bedtime - that's VERY good compared to issues other mums are having, and maybe that's where you should stop.  If you think you putting her to sleep is an issue, then wean it out.  It's all your choice, and we will support you with what you want to do.  You understand she needs to be awake a certain amount of time before she can sleep a good nap, and that her not becoming overtired is important.  Tweak her routine as you see fit.

If you want to continue onward with teaching her that she doesn't need you to put her to sleep, then I am your cheerleader.  Decide how you want sleep to go for your DD, what you are willing to do and not do, make a plan with DH and we will help you sort out any kinks that may be there.

I am sorry things are so difficult.  I wish I could help you more.
Love,
Zoey

Oh and I would never think - "Oh no not her again"  LOL - I feel badly that things aren't the way you want them, I will try to help you any way I can.  Perhaps take a break and regroup, figure out what you want to try to do for her and we can make a plan for that.  HUGS

[waffler]

Zoey, thanks , that was really sweet. I can say that i think one of the most important things to me now (as it has been for the last 6 mths...) is to get her to sleep independently, and stay asleep! So I want to persevere with this. And I look forward to having Zoey the Cheerleader (with Owen the mascot) there!

Day 3 : Noticed that night time, she actually went down quite easily. PUt her in cot, walked out door, cried. Then LOUD crying, went back in. Put hand on her, put her little stuffed toy (hopingthat will be her lovey) on her, and she kinda moved head side to side, closed eyes. At this stage, moved hand. Walked out door. Then, 30 mins later, loud noise woke her. hard crying. Had to pick up. Sang a lullaby, she calmed. Put her in cot at 7.45pm, same as above. Slept for 2 hours, woke 9.45, fed (last feed was 5.45pm), down easily, slept 5 hours, woke 3.30am, fed, down easily. Had to wake her at 7am.

First nap - easy to put down, well, when i say easy, i mean, she cried, after hard crying, walked in, hand on her to calm her, and she closed eyes, Hand off. she slept. walked out. But lasted only 30 mins. Inconsolable. then she just started babbling! So sleep was called off.

Am I doing this right? Thing is, it's so hard to listen to her cry cry cry. Also, if she is softly crying for say 5-10 mins, alone, is this not the same as CIO? It then escalates to "get back in here now!!", which of course we do. Do you think we shld leave it a bit longer b4 going in? She thrashes about so hard until we pick her up to calm her. Do you think we shld be putting her back in faster? Like, as soon as she calms, pop her back in cot (this is like pupd then isnt it?). I'm just concerned that she knows we'll come back in.. she KNOWS we'll pick her up if she cries hard enough... So at the moment, walking out the door the first time, she has cried all the time. So we've had to go in. SOmetimes we pick up, sometimes not. But not been able to stay out. We do seem to be taking 2 steps fwd, 1 step back, so this is positive.

[waffler]

Page 4 already! wow. Because of time diff, thought i'd put out a post b4 i retired for the night.

Problem today has been she can only sleep for 30 mins. This is today's routine :
0710 wake and eat
(start windown 9.00, swaddled 9.20, asleep 9.30, woke 10.00)
1000 wake from 30 min nap
1100 E
1200 start windown
1220 S
1250 wake
1.25 S (took that long to get her to sleep again)
2.00 wake
3.00 E
4.15 S
4.40 wake
5.15 start bedroutine, starting wth a feed - but she wasn't very hungry. She was tired. But wasnt sleepy after her bath. So took her out of nursery for some quiet time in my room. Tried again to read books etc at 6.15. Tried everything, she was just hysterical. Finally, out of sheer exhaustion she fell asleep at 7.35 only to wake at 8.05. DH upstairs.. again.. to try to get her to sleep.

I'm guessing this 30m sleep is due to being o/t. But that doesnt really explain the morning nap, where she slept pretty well the night b4. Looking back on my day log for her, she managed a semi long nap yesterday afternoon, but all the others have been 30m spells.

I'm not quite sure where we're going wrong with this. Any thoughts? Try to ensure that hands are removed from her body b4 she is asleep. Trying to wean the patshush but she still seems to need it. She also needs to be picked up at least once, due to her hysterics. I can tell, she's gonna be a real drama queen LOL (one has to laff when one is under extreme stress eh?)

[Zoey]

Hi hun!
WOW, you are doing SOOOO great!!!!!!!!!  Day three looks AWESOME! 



I would try not to pick her up.  Crying is normal, crying hard is normal, sobbing is normal.  If she is frantic and hysterical is the only time you should pick her up.  When I did pat/shh I never picked up - he was 4m old.  I did all my soothing in the crib, always.  Picking up is tricky, you may just start teaching her, if you cry hard enough, I will pick you up.  You want her to find a way to soothe herself, she can only do this is she is crying. 

I think if a loud noise scares her awake, Yes definately pick her up and calm her down and then try fo help her back to sleep because she was startled awake and that's scarey.  But other then that, as hard as it is, I would try your best to not pick her up.  You aren't hurting her, you are right there, patting and shhhing that is comforting enough - we don't want to teach her - cry hard, get picked up.  If she falls asleep from exhaustion that is OK - really.

Remember it's not your job to put her to sleep or to make her stop crying, you are there patting and shhing to help keep her clam so she can manage sleep - you pat/shh right on through her hard crying, at times it may seems she is inconsolable.  I remember feeling like, OMG nothing makes him stop crying, nothing comforts him.  Owen would CRY SO HARD and it was so hard to listen too, but I am telling you, it's just crying - he was ok and he learned how to soothe himself.  I was right there with him, while he worked through his emotions and fond a way to settle and soothe himself, supporting him.  There is crying and alot of it, that's why sleep training is NOT fun!  LOL - but seriously, it has to get really bad before it can ever get better.  Try to limit your picking up for when its really needed.

Crying;
If its a mantra cry, or a fuss, or a whine - she doesn't need you in there.  If it is a cry that says, I NEED YOU NOW!  She needs you.  Every baby has a different mantra cry so I can't tell you if its that or not - but a mantra is the same kinda sound over and over, not changing in any dramatic way. Like waaa waaa waaa waaa waaa.  When baby cries Tracy said to stop and listen for a moment, assess the cry then act.  So, listen for a moment figure out what's going on, then if its a real cry go right in, if not hang back and wait and see what happens.

That tossing about could be her way of settling herself.  Again, try not to pick her up.  If she needs help settling use your pat/shh tool.  If you want to move to pupd you can, but I really think you can use pat/shh if you stop picking up so much.  The difference is, with pupd - when you pick up there is no soothing or comforting while she is up on your shoulder - that is her job - you just pick up and hold for 2-3min and put back down regardless on if there is crying or not.  You picking up alot with pat/shh and calming her down and putting her back in - isn't teaching her anything but - Ok I cry really hard I get picked up.

Todays routine:
Ok she woke at 7am, and didn't go to sleep until 930am - she was overtired and so she couldn't settle enough to get through the 30min mark.  My suggestion from below is:

0700 Wake and eat - A time begins here
0850 Wind down
0900 Nap 1h30m - A time ends here = 2h

2h30m is too long for her first A time, most often babies do their shortest A time first.  SO 7am to 930am was probably too much for first thing in the morning.

What did you do at 10am when she woke?   The ideal thing would be to go to her and attempt to use pat/shh to extend the nap - pat/shh for 40mins - if it didn't work then stop because it will be near feed time.  Feed at 11am, then watch for sleepy cues and attempt a nap when you see them - OR when 45mins has gone by, attempt a nap.  If she was up from 7am to 930am and only slept 30mins and then was up until 1.25 - see what I am saying?  This is waaay too long so she was overtired again, this is that overtired circle I was talking about.  So really try to stick with the routine, its really important to catch these windows when they happen.

You are doing so well, try to get into that routine, and I think things may go a bit easier.  Sleep training is even more difficult when baby is wicked overtired - know what I mean?

I hope this helps!  Keep up the great work, I am proud of you for sticking with this.
Love,
Zoey

[waffler]

Hiya, I know what ya mean about the o/t. But to be honest, i kept waiting for the "signs" but just didnt see them! But will be more vigilant today. I was hoping she'd have a good 1st nap 'cos I wanted to take her to 'test drive' some high chairs as i want to start solids soon LOL  Guess will have to wait till we have the sleep nipped in the bud.

In answer to your question, after she woke, kept p/s for a good while, but didnt work, so yes, when it was closed to the feed, the p/s stopped.

Yea when she was moving round the bed, the time she was on her tum and couldn't turn over that's when i stepped in. It is hard isn't it? Listening to them cry. Her cry has become hoarse too, gosh, just breaks your heart! Well, back to sleep now (4.30 am, she woke and fed her). xox

[Zoey]

Oooo shhh - you need to sleep!

I would not look for signs at the first nap, just go with the 2h of A time- be sure she is in the crib at the 2h mark.  After that, the rest of the day if you wanna look for signs, have at it - but this first nap is what is going to set the tone for your whole day.  Going down too early like before - she wasn't tired enough, and waiting too long like 930, is too long. 

I always put Owen down for his nap and while he is sleeping I get everything ready to go out and the moment he wakes, I toss at bottle into him and we are out the door!  When he was doing 2-215 A times, I knew we'd have about 2h before we needed to be back for a nap.  Making sure she doesn't nap in the car is a good plan, because that will ruin a nap (unless of course you go out in the thrid A time and have her catnap on the way home!).  That was/is DH's job in the car - to keep Odog awake LOL - which in turn, amuses me!  LOL

Anyhow, try to have her down at the 2h mark and see how things go, extend with pat/shh if she wakes early, and if you don't get a good nap longer then an hour - know that you will have to watch for cues or when 45mins goes by, put her back down.

Good Luck!
Zoey

Now go to sleep woman!

[waffler]

Just a quickie. DD woke at 0700, by 0900 was in bed, but only fell asleep by 0915 ( had to pick up). She woke 30 mins later. Hard to put back down to sleep. Whats with the 30 min waking? I can see today is going to be another day of 30m naps

[Zoey]

Today she was in bed by 9 and asleep by 915 - this is good. 
Yesterday she was asleep by 930am - not so good.  I am not sure about the other days, but my point is today was good - it takes a few days of the routine being consistently 'good' to see things change.  Also, you are sleep training too - nothing is right the first few days of sleep training.  She is mad, frustrated, things are all confusing to her because you have changed the rules - this is normal sweetie!  If you stay completely consistant, with sleep traning, and her routine - everyday - it will improve.

On Oct 2nd you posted this:
"Today, she woke at 6.30 am. Morning nap was 1h40" - how long was she awake before this nap?

Zoe

[waffler]

On the oct 2nd,she woke at 6.30, was asleep by 8.10 and slepty 1h40m.

Didnt get her to extend her nap, only 30m. For nxt nap, going to try to w2s by going in at 20m and waiting for her to stir and laying hands, see if that will work. Will try that few times b4 actually trying to wake her. And if cant extend, i'm thinkking of doing pu/pd. She had to be picked up numerous times and was inconsolable. sheesh!

[Zoey]

Ok, keep me posted - or post over there!  Up to you!

Love,
Zoey

[waffler]

I am ashamed to say last nite was the worst. First, here is what happened :

0700 Wake and eat
0915-0945 S
1100 E
1150-1.30 S (stirred at 30m mark but managed to gently pat back to sleep, she didnt wake fully)
3.00 E
3.50 - 4.25 S (she woke naturally from this catnap)
5.30 Start bedroutine
10.00PM FINALLY ASLEEP!

As you can see, the fact that she didnt have a long nap for the 1st one threw the day, as it was an early wake up so everything was brought forward. But at night, it was non stop crying/screaming for FOUR . I was woried it may be a growth spurt, so fed her at 8.45. She calmed. Put her in cot - awake. But Ileft her to it, she was scootching around, flipping back and forth for 20 mins crying softly then it was hard. DH took over. Think it was just too much too bear, but he began swaying ... she finally calmed. Popped her in cot, she slept finally.

So, the stress was bad, we fed and swayed. She woke again at 11pm I was convinced it was a growth spurt so fed again. But she didnt wake till I woke her at 7am!

What was the longest you had to endure crying from your LO? Because 4 hrs to me is a really long time I cant figure out why at night its so hard to put her down. Sure, she didnt sleep much, but I made sure that her bedtime came early. She cries till she is in such a state that she just can't sleep! aaargh!

[Zoey]

My son has severe reflux so, I have endured literally 12 hours of crying.   For sleep training, I honestly can't remember - but it certainly wasn't a picnic - and I was 100% consistent for 8 days.

Speaking of which are you sure she isn't sick or having some reflux relapse, an ear ache, hunger something?  It could all be routine related, but I can't help but have a feeling that she is having discomfort, hunger or something.  I don't know - please be sure.

You started great, awesome getting her down at 915, really great!! At 945 when she woke from her nap did you attempt to extend it for 40mins?  The idea would be attempt til 1025am if no nap get her up as after a 5 min break it would be nearly 11 for a feed.  Good job on bring everything forward and not letting her get overtired for the second nap!!  AWESOME! After the catnap at 430ish - starting at 530 only give her an hour of awake time?  Perhaps that wasn't enough, making her not want to fall asleep - and then she is wound up from crying and then crosses over into being overtired maybe?  My suggestion for the last A time is 1h30m-1h45m from when she wakes from the catnap til she is in the crib. 

I can't stress consistency enough.  I know you want to try pupd, but you do realize there has to be 100% commitment and consistency - right?  You know there is no soothing when you Pick up, and there is a TON of crying right?  Also, at night with pupd there are no breaks, you do it until sleep - be it 1h, 4h or 8h, naturally that is an extreme but you get my meaning.  We don't try to stop crying or prevent it - it is through crying that baby learns to self soothe.  Also in pupd we don't switch off, whomever starts a sleep session, finishes it.    It hard work, harder then this in my opinion.  I don't mean to be harsh - if you want to attempt it, I want you to just be prepared for it.

You are on day 4 of attempting to teach indep sleep - 4 hours is alot of crying and I am sorry - but you are teaching a new skill and with that there are regressions.  It has to get worse before it gets better.  Sometimes when the crying is the longest and hardest is when the lessons are learned.

Please be sure she isn't hungry before bed, in pain or having any reflux troubles.  Humor me LOL.

Tell me how I can help you.  Tons of hugs - I am so glad you got to sleep from 11pm - 7am.  That must have felt really great. 
Zoey

[waffler]

I have an appointement with her pediatrician nxt wk. She seems really fine during the day. And she did have reflux (silent) when she was younger, gave meds, went to cranial osteo, and she really seems fine. She was off meds about 6 wks ago. But it's certainly worth a check.

Yep we tried to extend her nap for another 45 mins.

We don't try to stop crying or prevent it - it is through crying that baby learns to self soothe.

Wouldnt you say though in some circumstances that the baby works herself up so much to a frenzy that it's just impossible to get her to sleep? That's why in the past I've taken her out of her room for a few mins to calm her down before starting. When she's in that frenzy her arms come out of swaddle and she is really frantic and just nothing will console her apart from the boob or swaying! DH and I are prepared to have her cry all night while we stay with her to try to soothe and calm, but there will always be that doubt "I wonder if she's hungry, or she must be thirsty after all that screaming". That's why it's better if someone else does it and not me as I cave and lift my tshirt up and that's it! I'm such a pushover And actually, when i pretended to be out of the room during the night, i saw that she rolled over, then rolled back ! But she has never done it in sight of anyone so maybe she's pretending she can't roll back - she's crafty LOL. But I did read that developmental milestones could make a baby hungry... see, that's why she is hard to read. And her cries all sound the same now, although yday she did start a growling sort of cry that i have never heard before.

Back to the ol' drawing board...

[Zoey]

We don't try to stop crying or prevent it .... In PUPD.  That whole paragraph was about PUPD.    Pupd is a tool meant to teach self soothing, you can't use pupd on a baby that isn't properly crying, we don't try to stop the crying or prevent the crying - it's through the crying that the lesson is learned.  It's hard work.

When she's in that frenzy her arms come out of swaddle and she is really frantic and just nothing will console her apart from the boob or swaying!

I used to think this too, as long as you believe these are the only two things that will console her, then yes - it will remain true.  I have never had Owen unable to fall asleep - if you stick with it, eventually they always fall asleep.  You have to stick with it though.  Of course I am sure people take breaks and soothe and comfort with props - but that isn't working for you.  She still isn't sleeping, right?    If she breaks out of the swaddle, re-do the swaddle and continue!   Taking breaks and soothing with props is just prolonging everything.  If there is a real need to be met, like hunger - meet it and continue.

I used to think, "There is NO WAY on Earth this baby of mine if going to fall asleep without something in his mouth, or without me holding and rocking or sleeping with him."  In fact, the first day it happened, after what seemed like an enternity of trying - I started to bawl - hysterically.  You don't believe me when I say I have been where you are.  My baby didn't sleep - he took 2, 30min naps ON ME all day and was up every hour all night - he was 3m old.  It was hell, and it was hell to fix it - but we did it, together Owen and I did it.  He cried so hard sometimes, he would hold his breath, turn purple and then puke.  But we stuck with it, everday - everynight, for as long as it took.

You aren't a push over - you care about your baby and there is nothing wrong with that.  You don't like to hear her cry, that too is understandable.  If DH can do it, awesome - give him cookies and let him do it!  I did it all myself, I didn't let DH touch sleep until after we were done LOL!  But just know, if someone can't be consistant, if someone can't stand to not cave and give the props, it probably isn't going to work - not the routine, not sleep training. 

She is crafty!  I think she has your number for sure LOL She is so adorable and precious, and has such an unique face - I just love your avatar!  She CAN do this, she CAN sleep without boobs, or swaying, or rocking or anything - I know this to be true!  You have all the tools and info sweetie - you know what to do and how to do it - now it just all needs to be done! 

Let me know how I can help and how things are going - lots of love and respect,
Zoey

[waffler]

Hiya! It's nearly bedtime for me now, just wanted to give you the low-down on today.

0710 Wake and E
0920 Slept for 30m (tried extend 45m didnt work,abandoned nap)
1040 E (she seemed hungry couldnt wait till 11)
1200-1230 S, extended from 1.05-1.25 (total 55m)
2.40 E
3.40 Catnap 20m only
Started massage, bath, feed at 5.15
7.00pm S, woke at 7.40pm
9.pm E (she seemed hungry), didnt fall asleep at breast
9.40pm S

So naps were disaster, tried to bring the day fwd. Btw, after feeding her at the 5.15, she seemed awake but quiet so i lay her on my bed and sang songs to her. When I took her into nursery to hand over to DH, she seemed rather agitated... this has never happened. WOndering if that was her being tired, or something to do with the room.

I am goin to keep at this until nxt Friday. If things dont improve, and the doc gives the go-ahead, then think we need to start pu/pd. I know to get pupd to work the routine needs to be in place. But how can her routine be in place when she is only taking 30m naps? I still dont get why she just struggles to sleep at night. This has been going on for nearly 3wks. She is much easier to put down for naps now, which is great (walk out room, walk in and normally only have to pick her up once to reassure her). But the bedtime sleep is like the Hammer House of Horror - all that screaming!!

(zoey - wanted to say that owen looks like he's got some pretty impressive biceps!!). Right - off to bed for mummy!