Author Topic: working hard on the night wakings, but still really need your help!  (Read 2263 times)

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Offline frankiesmom

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 Hi, I have been posting some questions about ds recently but still have some more.  Don't know if you need all the info again, but basically he is 4 months old, bf, on a 4 hour EASY, taking two 1.5 to 2 hour naps plus a 30 minute catnap.  We are trying to df, but it is not going well, so last night I bf h im for the df and it was much better. 
The problem is that he is waking like clockwork every 3 hours from the time of the df, so if df is 10:30, he is waking at 1:30 and 4:30.  We have tried W2S for the first waking but he is still waking, so in addition, we are doing pat/sh.  It has been taking him about 30 minutes to settle and then he will go back without eating.  I have been feeding him for the second waking between 4:30 and 5:30 but he really isn't eating alot and I really think my boob has become a prop :-\.  Even if dh or I pick him up, he does not settle.
So, last night, we decided not to feed him for that second waking and he flipped.  Iended up giving in b/c I was worried that he was hungry but again, he ate slowly for like 5 minutes and then fell asleep. 
Also, for the first waking, dh was patting him and talking to him while he was crying and he got really upset, so he picked him up.  He got even more upset.  He really cried for about 10 minutes and then dh left the room and he started settling and within 5 minutes he was asleep.
We have been working on these night wakings for 6 nights now with no improvement in the amount of time it is taking him to go back to sleep.

So, my questions are:

1.  is it possible that a baby could get more worked up and frustrated that you are in the room with them?  I don't want to leave him CIO but it seems like he is less upset when we aren't there.

2.  Can you work on one night waking and still feed for the other one or would that confuse him.? So, if he gets a df at 11:00 and then wakes at 2, do pat/sh for that one, but if he wakes at 5, then feed him b/c that would be a full 6 hours and he may be hungry?

Thanks so much,
Kim



Offline Colin Macs Mom

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Re: working hard on the night wakings, but still really need your help!
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2006, 19:12:59 pm »
Hi Kim,

Sure, it's possible for a LO to get more worked up if you are there, if he/she is trying to tell you that they don't need you and you're impeding progress, KWIM? But it's important to know the difference between a self-settling cry/mantra cry and an I-need-you cry. That's the difference between CIO and letting LO sleep on their own.

It sounds to me like your LO has developed a suck to sleep association. Does he take a paci/dummy/soother?
Jessica
Mom to Colin Ronald, August 18, 2005
Spirited + Reflux =  :o


Offline frankiesmom

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Re: working hard on the night wakings, but still really need your help!
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2006, 19:48:32 pm »
Nope, no paci ever.  And, he is never bf to sleep before naps or bed.  He goes down for his naps very drowsy but awake and he the same for bedtime.  We are working on putting him down more and more awake.  The only time he bf to sleep is in the middle of the night feeds. 
The cry thing is tough, b/c it always starts out like he is trying to settle himself, but then it turns to an I am really mad cry.  Picking him up does not help, it makes it worse, and often patting him makes it worse.  It just seems like he is frustrated with not being able to get what he wants......a boob!  So, is that how it may be until he gets it?  I mean that he may be really freaking out even if we are there?  And we just keep reassuring him through it? Is that the difference between CIO and being there with him? They still may be really upset, but you are there with them through it.  I guess I just didn't expect him to cry so hard for so long.  I thought that being there would somehow comfort him, but it just doesn't.  And, like I said, it seemed like when we left, even though it was still a really mad cry, it slowed down to a self settling cry very shortly after we left his room.  I also guess I expected the amount of crying to shorten each night, but it always seems to be about a half hour.

So, I guess I just need to stick with it?
What do you think about the 2 night wakings?  Will working on one confuse him more or is it okay to pat him through the first one and then feed him for the second one? 

Thank you so much!
Kim


Offline Colin Macs Mom

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Re: working hard on the night wakings, but still really need your help!
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2006, 23:39:14 pm »
That's what I meant - he has an association for the middle of the night wakes. Being that he's only 4 mo he surely still needs a night feed though, so the key will be figuring out when to do it.  ;)  So yes, work with him through one and feed at the other.

And you're right too about being with him when crying not being CIO. CIO means letting LO cry alone for however long they go for. Never going in, no matter how upset or hysterical LO is.
Jessica
Mom to Colin Ronald, August 18, 2005
Spirited + Reflux =  :o


Offline frankiesmom

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Re: working hard on the night wakings, but still really need your help!
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2006, 00:36:50 am »
Okay, thanks.  I will do the df at 11 (although sometimes he wakes before that) ::) and then continue wake to sleep and pat him through the next feed and then feed him at the 5 am feed. 
I'll let you know how it goes.


Offline Colin Macs Mom

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Re: working hard on the night wakings, but still really need your help!
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2006, 03:52:38 am »
Please do - if you see no improvement in a few days we can look at other options.  :-*
Jessica
Mom to Colin Ronald, August 18, 2005
Spirited + Reflux =  :o


Offline frankiesmom

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Re: working hard on the night wakings, but still really need your help!
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2006, 17:37:15 pm »
Hi Colin Mac's mom!  Just wanted to update you with our nights.  Things are worse.  I think the df is just not going to work.  I just can't get him to eat.  Dh was trying to do a bottle, but he just flips when we try to give it to him and then I have been trying to bf him but he is definitely not taking a full meal.  So, last night, he ended up waking up at 12:45 and I bf him, 3:15 and I bf him, and then 4:30 (!) and he ate 4 ounces.  I figured I would try a bottle b/c I know he will only take a bottle if he is hungry, whereas he will always bf. 
Anyway, what do you think about dropping the df and seeing what happens?  I almost feel like it is making things worse.
Also, I was considering the gentle removal plan or the plan listed in the FAQ's(decreasing the time he is bf and seeing if that works).  The pat/sh is absolutely not working.  He is getting so upset.  It is easier to just let him suck and go back to sleep.  If I put him on the breast, he sucks very slowly and will be right back to sleep within a few minutes, that is why I really think it is more comfort then hunger and feeding him is making it so much worse.

What do you think?

Kim


Offline Colin Macs Mom

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Re: working hard on the night wakings, but still really need your help!
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2006, 17:54:36 pm »
Awww Kim, I'm sorry things are worse still. I would definitely drop the DF. It's not for everyone, and can make things worse - I never did one because of that. And it does sound like it's comfort rather than hunger, although he probably still needs at least one actual night feed. I would try the gentle removal or the time decrease definitely. Probably time decrease would be your best bet.
Jessica
Mom to Colin Ronald, August 18, 2005
Spirited + Reflux =  :o


Offline frankiesmom

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Re: working hard on the night wakings, but still really need your help!
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2006, 19:53:14 pm »
Sorry to keep bugging you, but what do you suggest as far as the feedings?  He has been getting up 3 to 4 times.  Should I try to get him to take a full feed for the first waking and then do the time decrease for the others or do the time decrease for all of them? Should I try to pump and give him a bottle to get him totally off the breast at night or just continue to bf him?  Sometimes he won't take a bottle, so that may be out.

Is there any chance his days are messing  up his nights?  I have to wake him from 80% of his naps b/c they go to 2 hours.  He gets on average 4.5 hours of sleep during the day with 2 naps and a catnap. 

How important is it to wake him at the exact same time every morning?  I have been so tired in the am that sometimes he sleeps until 7:45 when he used to get up at 7?  I am just so tired, I don't even move in the morning until I hear him.

And just FYI, he is really not eating first thing in the am for more then 5 minutes.  I know it is b/c he isn't hungry.  So, I really think these feeds are messing up his nights.

Thanks so much again!

Kim


Offline Colin Macs Mom

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Re: working hard on the night wakings, but still really need your help!
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2006, 20:42:44 pm »
You're not bugging me at all Kim!!
 :-*

My DS had a night feed around 3 or 3:30am until he was 6.5 months and I think that's pretty average. I would try and eliminate the other feeds one at a time, unless you think he could deal with cold turkey, but I suspect not. It might be worth trying the bottle though - that would break the breast association and also offer him something that's not his ideal, KWIM? But if it makes things worse and sends him into a tizzy then it's not worth it. I think you're right that those night feeds are messing things up - he's probably got days and nights confused in a way.

Your DS sounds a bit like mine - he was always a fantastic napper, and nights were always a HUGE problem for us. Go figure, it's supposed to be the other way around, but never was! I hate when people ask questions about naps in relation to NW issues because I have so little experience with nap problems.
 ;)  But if you have to wake him after two hours, that says a  lot. You might want to try waking him after 1 hr 45 min and see if he's getting too much day sleep.
Jessica
Mom to Colin Ronald, August 18, 2005
Spirited + Reflux =  :o


Offline frankiesmom

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Re: working hard on the night wakings, but still really need your help!
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2006, 21:31:01 pm »
Thank you.  One last thing for clarification.  I don't mind one feed at all.  So, give him one good feed at maybe the second one and then work on eliminating the other 2 by decreasing the amount of time on the breast, is that right?

So, say he goes to bed at 7:30, wakes at 10:30---I would start off with say 10 minutes the first night, then decrease by a minute each night.
Then he will probably wake around 1:30--give him a full feed
Then probably 4:30--do the same as with #1?

DS #1 was sleeping through at this point, I worked with him, but I didn't realize how easy he was to change his habits until now ::)

Thanks again,
Kim


Offline Colin Macs Mom

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Re: working hard on the night wakings, but still really need your help!
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2006, 22:07:24 pm »
Isn't it funny how one LO can be so different from the next? I only have one but have many friends and family with 2+ and it's so interesting how utterly different they can be.

I think your plan sounds great - but if you find that he's more inclined to eat at say, 4:30, then do the real feed then.
Jessica
Mom to Colin Ronald, August 18, 2005
Spirited + Reflux =  :o


Offline frankiesmom

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Re: working hard on the night wakings, but still really need your help!
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2006, 18:11:33 pm »
Hi.  Just wanted to update you on Luca.  It has been kind of crazy around here.  Luca ended up in the ER last week b/c he aspirated his Prilosec and he was screaming for 6 hours.  They did chest x-rays and he ended up being fine but his reflux was getting worse and worse.  So, he ended up having an endoscopy to get biopsies and take a look at his GI tract.  He most likely has a food allergy so continuing bf will be a challenge.  Anyway, he is eating so much better and sleeping somewhat better at night.  He usually is getting up twice, once around midnight and once around 4 but it is always a different time and now he is sucking down a 9 ounce bottle at the first feed so I know he is hungry. I am going to see how he does for the next couple of weeks and probably switch to a bottle only at night and then try to decrease the amount he is eating and see if I can at least get him to drop one of his feeds.  Thanks for your help and one more question....
2 out of the past 3 nights he has woken (once at 4 and once at 5), he ate, then he was smiling and cooing at me but I know he was still tired.  It took me an hour and a half to get him back to sleep.  He has never done this before. Could this be due to being overtired?  The one day, he refused his catnap and had 4 hours between his last nap and bed and the other day we went to the zoo and he had 4 thirty minute naps. 

Thanks, Kim


Offline Colin Macs Mom

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Re: working hard on the night wakings, but still really need your help!
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2006, 19:03:02 pm »
Oh my goodness Kim  :(  I'm so sorry to hear that he's having such a tough time with the medical stuff. I'm glad though that the sleeping and eating have improved!

As for the smiling and cooing - that could be any number of things. He may have been overtied, it could be developmental, could be gas...
Jessica
Mom to Colin Ronald, August 18, 2005
Spirited + Reflux =  :o


Offline frankiesmom

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Re: working hard on the night wakings, but still really need your help!
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2006, 19:53:48 pm »
He just learned how to roll (from back to front) and working on front to back.  He sleeps on his belly, so that may be some of it too. 
These night wakings are so hard b/c I never know if he is having GI problems or just wanting comfort.  I can deal with 2 times at night though (especially since dh does one when he isn't traveling ;) ) So, I will just go with it and see if he will drop one on his own soon! 

Thanks for all you help.

Kim