HELP! 20 minute monster!

[stephie]

I've tried and tried and nothing seems to work to help my DD who's 3 mos....

OK.. I don't even know where to start? Since the beginning, she's never been a good napper.... she was having the 30 minute naps a few weeks ago and now it's declined to 20 minute naps.... I've tried staying close by and soothing her back to sleep by holding her down for the jolts and sh/patting but that never seems to work.  After the 20 minute mark, she'll do her little jolt, I'll be there to hold her down, but that doesn't seem to get her back to sleep... she'll still wake and start crying, so I'll sh her (the patting AND shushing used to work to calm her down but in the last week, i find that it's been annoying her and she only responds to the shush now...) I might be able to extend a few minutes at a time, but rarely do I ever manage to get her down for a longer stretch.  She ends up having about 4-20 minute naps in a day and I can tell that she's just getting more tired as the day goes on... these days, I'm just resorting to letting her have at least one good nap however she needs to, be it in the swing or stroller.... whatever!!!  I usually let her stay up for about 1 1/2 hour before trying to put her down again, but it's a little hard because her EASY is so screwed up with the short naps....

So in essence, this is typically what her nap looks like - wind down by walking around her darkened room and rocking her... once she gets drowsy, I put her in her crib awake, place my hands on her back and stomach and then shush her until she falls asleep. She wakes up around the 20 minute mark and then I'm there to try and get her back to sleep by putting my hands back on her legs so they don't jolt and on her back and then shush her again - I'll usually be able to get her back to sleep for a few more minutes, she wakes up again, I do the same, a few minutes more of sleep and she's up again.... I keep this up for about 45 minutes..... and then give up..I've also tried doing w2s without luck (not sure if I'm doing it right...)....

Right now I've got the time to write just because she's napping in her swing... she's been sleeping for the last hour and half but it seems that she'll only take longer naps in the swing or in her carseat (even if it's not moving)

The other question that I have that I couldn't really find an answer for on the boards was - is shushing a prop? Last night, I got her ready for bed and thought that I would try and leave her to see if she could fall asleep on her own without my help (I put her into her crib drowsy) but she just fussed and cried a little.. finally after 20 minutes, I went in, put my hand on her stomach and back, shushed for 10 seconds, and she was out... is this bad? I find that in the night, after a feed, I can put her back into her crib awake and she'll fall back asleep without any help from me but for the first time at bedtime, she needs me to shush her and put my hands on her to get her to sleep... sorry, I know that this is a different topic but I figured it's all kind of related....

[Lucas & Mum]

Poor you - Not sure how to help you but thought I'd send you some hugs anyway .  I went through the same thing with 20 min naps but mine was b/c i had a paci addict and was removing it before he fell asleep - he would wake at 20 min mark on the dot and wouldn't settle until i gave it to him again - vicious circle.  I also did whatever i could to extend the naps and even resorted to lying on my bed with him so that i was always there to see him through transitions and jolts.  As i said, not much help in your case but keep going, I'm sure a moderator will have a look at this and offer some advice.  You might want to post your routine (or what you would like your routine to be) on board so they can have a look at it and see if anything needs tweaking.
Let us know how you get on
Emma

[Noranc]

I'm having the same problem. It takes 20-30 minutes to get my LO to sleep and he only sleeps 20-30 minutes during the day. But only when we stay home all day. If we go places he usually sleeps much better. I know he needs more sleep but I don't know how to extend his naps. Help!

[stephie]

I'm hoping that one of the moderators will respond soon as I'm getting more and more frustrated with the naps!!!! I'm driving myself crazy trying to get DD to nap!!! Thankfully, night time is OK with only 2 wakes a night, but during the daytime, I dread each naptime because she crys and screams at me each time I try to put her down.....I don't think that I'm waiting too long either.. at her age, I'm waiting about 1 hour 35 to 45 minutes between naps.....imagine your baby screeching at you evrey nap time... ACKKKK!!!

[Lucas & Mum]

Hi Stephie and hugs to you.  Hope a moderator gets to you soon as you sound desperate.  I'm notsure how you can get in touch - perhaps if you post a question on the introductions board someone there will know.  Just a though but i have a 5.5 month old and he generally gets tied after 1.30 - 1.45 hrs - we do sometimes have 2 hr wake times but this does include his feed as well.  As your LO is younger than this you may want to think about shortening her E&A times.  Also if you post your routine a moderator will have a better chance of seeing if something needs tweaking.  I promise if i find out how to contact Stacy or Zoey I'll get back to you ASAP

[Stine333]

I hope someone posts with some suggestions as well.  My lo is 2 mo old and has some 20 min naps and some 45 min naps.  I have read in another post about the sleep stages at 20 min and 40 - 45 min.  I guess we have lo who wake at every transistion?  Just a post to let you know you are not alone and there is someone else out there who is as frustrated as you.

[Lana]

I don't think that I'm waiting too long either.. at her age, I'm waiting about 1 hour 35 to 45 minutes between naps

At three months we had to start our wind down at 1.25 hours and have him in his crib before 1.5 hours or it took forever.

And shushing is not a prop  

HTH

[SavageNelson]

I just also wanted to lend my support.  Our initial problem (that our six week old LO initialy wouldn't go down for me) has morphed into a no nap/short nap problem (at least for yesterday and today).  I don't know if there is anything helpful in my message string, but here is the link to it (I think - I am new here): https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=73828.0 (called Won't Nap for Mum).  Lately, we spend all of the nap time trying to get him to nap, straight through to the next feeding, or he goes down for 20 minutes.  We had one 1 hour nap today, but that was it.  Fortunately, he is a good night sleeper (one feeding at 2 am), so hopefully he catches up there.

Anyhoo, hang in there and good luck.

[Lucas & Mum]

Hi stephie, hope things are not too bad for you today.  Just wanted to let you know i have been on introductions board and asked how to get in touch with a moderator for you - will see how long it takes to get a reply - hopefully not too long.
hang in there 

[Zoey]

Hi gals!  Sorry things are messy with naps!

Stephie -

Hey there, I hope I can be of some help in addition to what everyone else has offered!  Do you think your baby could have reflux?  I ask this because you say she sleeps well upright in the carseat or swing even without the motion.  Just something I wanted to toss out there, she probably doesn't - I just have reflux-radar!  Perhaps try putting a rolled up towel under the head of her mattress, perhaps that will help her some if she likes that upright feeling?

1) I don't know what your current routine looks like but at 3m, assuming your baby was not preemie, perhaps a 3h Easy will suit her?  I am not sure how far into her 3rd month she is but perhaps something like this:
(oh here is the 4s's link in case you need it:  https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64277.0)

E: 7.00 wake up and feed
A: from the end of feed until 8.15am then start 4s's, with pat/shh if needed in crib.
S: 8.30 (1.5hr nap)

E: 10.00 wake and feed
A: end of feeding til 11.15am then 4s's, p/s if needed in cri.
S: 11.30 (1.5hr nap)

E: 1.00 wake and feed
A: end of feeding til 2.15pm, 4s's, p/s if needed
S: 2.30 (1.5hr nap)

E: 4.00 feed wake and feed
A: end of feed til 5.15pm, 4s's, p/s
S: 5.30pm 35mins wake at 6.05pm

E: 6.30pm feed
A: 6.45pm - bath, top off feed if you are, then 4s's
S: 7.15/7.30pm Asleep

E: 10 or 11pm dreamfeed

Again this is a suggestion.  Depending on how far into 3m she is, she may need more A time.  A few other things that may also help:

2) We like baby to get sleepy and fall asleep in the crib.  I wonder if rocking her is becoming a prop?  Perhaps try cutting that out of the wind down all together and see if this helps.

3) You can experiment with pat/shh to find what your baby likes - rubbing her head, back, butt, patting back, butt, a bum jiggle, a hand on her, shhing, singing, soft speaking, humming, nothing, just shh or just patting - whatever.  Find what she likes and do that.  Anything of these things you do IN the crib can be weaned out later if need be so no worries. 

4) It seems like she is really overtired.  If you put her down and use pat/shh and she goes off - fabulous - if not, pat/shh until she sleeps, or until 40mins has gone by - then stop and take a 10min break - then go back in and try again until her feed time.  Always wake at her feed time.  If her nap was short - you feed her, kisses, diaper change and attempt the nap again.  If she only slept 20mins, she can't handle 1h45m of A time following it, this makes her overtired and it snowballs, making each nap more difficult.  Does this make sense?  Sure at first it may seem like you are pat/shh your life away, but we have to get her back into a good pattern where she isn't overtired.  So, use your pat/shh - try to extend, if you can't, stop at her feed time, feed, change her, cuddles - and then back down to try for the nap again.  I think this is where your trouble stems - keeping her up 1h45m despite having a 20min nap.

5) I can't find if you are swaddling - you need a swaddle.  It helps with the jolts.  If I missed that you are swaddling nevermind me!

6) Be sure she isn't hungry, she won't sleep if hungry - she is the age for a Growth Spurt so try to offer her as much as she wants at her feedings.

I hope this helps some, let me know.

LOVE AND HUGE HUGS!
Zoey

[Stine333]

Zoey-

Sorry - I am confused about this part......

"If her nap was short - you feed her, kisses, diaper change and attempt the nap again.  If she only slept 20mins, she can't handle 1h45m of A time following it, this makes her overtired and it snowballs, making each nap more difficult."Does this make sense?

So say you are on a 3 hour EASY and feed lo at 9AM, nap at 10:30 and they wake up early, even only nap 20 minutes, you should feed lo again and start EASY again from here instead of waiting the full 3 hours until it is time for them to be fed?  Then that is only 1 hour and 50 minutes since they last ate? I am confusing you  ....... maybe it is me:)

You are right though - when my lo wakes too early, and has to wait to eat he get overtired by the time he is fed and is falling asleep at the bottle. 

If this is the case I have been doing it wrong.

[Lucas & Mum]

Wouldn't recommend feeding again straight away.  Would try very quiet A time, just sitting on lap, cuddling, singing softly etc so doesn't get too overtired.  Would also try and sneak another nap in before next feed if I spotted any sleepy signs.  Hope this is right!
Even with my Lo being nearly 6 mth old, he can't handle being awake more than 2 hrs at most, including feeding time.  Your Lo is younger so will need much shorter A time.  Keep tweaking and see if shorter wake time (A&E combined) lead to longer naps. HTH 

[Zoey]

Stine333: Ill use this as an example:

E: 10.00 wake and feed
A: end of feeding til 11.15am then 4s's, p/s if needed in cri.
S: 11.30 (1.5hr nap)

E: 1.00 wake and feed

Ok, baby wakes at say 1215pm - you can go in try to extend with pat/shh, and you may want do this until her next feed time - you can feed 10/15m early if she has been crying hard through all this pat/shhing because crying burns calories and she will be hungry.  So feed at 1245/1pm, after her feed, change her, kisses and cuddles and back down to try for a nap. 
If you try to keep her up for the whole A time she will be overtired.  I would not feed any earlier then 10/15m, that will throw everything off.  Always wake for a feed regardless of when they fell asleep.  We try to stick to the idea of Easy; eat, play, sleep - in the beginning sometimes with sleeping troubles, the times aren't going to be perfect, or even close to it lol.  So, stick with the idea of Easy and watch your LO - put down as soon as you see sleepy cues when they are this little.   Also, the catnap is a freebie - you can put them to sleep anyway they will go - swing, carseat, stroller - whatever, this is ok for the catnap.

The key here is, go in and attempt to extend the short nap with pat/shh - she will probably go back off to sleep.  If not, know that after her next feed, you change her, kiss, her and try again for the nap - instead of keeping her up til the next scheduled sleep time.

If baby wakes happy, and extending seems futile, I would do as Emma suggests, a quiet A time, then feed at feeding time, diaper change, cuddles, and right back down for a nap.

I hope this helps some - I know this time is trying, but it gets better I promise!!  Most important thing you can do is watch you LO 

Zoey

[Stine333]

Thanks guys - that is what I thought ........  Today is another day and we will see how it all goes.

[stephie]

Hi Zoey, thanks for the help... I've been off the boards lately just because I kind of gave up and went with the flow of things.... let my little one nap whenever and however she could... of course, we are still with 20 minute naps but I've just been trying to get her down more often...extending just doesn't seem to work.....I'm finding it really hard to read her cues.... by the time I see a yawn or eye rubbing, it's already too late!

I'm finding that she's getting a really good stretch at night the last few nights - from 8:00 pm - 5 or 6 am (feed) and then down again until about 9am.... I figure that at least if she can't sleep during the day, she'll get good sleep at night...I also found out that she had not been getting enough milk so that may be a cause of the bad napping too?? she had only gained 4 ounces in 2 weeks which at her age is not enough!!! I've increased milk production now with pumping and I think we're back on track! Let's see if napping might improve now!!!

I'm trying not to let it get to me too much now.... I'm a little less frustrated with it now because as you said, if the nap isn't quite long enough and I can't extend, I don't kill myself with constantly trying to extend, I pop her in the swing and off she goes.....