Author Topic: please help, 1st post, lots of sleep issues for 1 year old (long)  (Read 1368 times)

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Offline mum of 3

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please help, 1st post, lots of sleep issues for 1 year old (long)
« on: September 30, 2006, 22:39:04 pm »
Hi everybody  :D
 
This is my 1st post to these boards but i often drop in to read up on your posts and now i feel its time to put my own in. I apologise now for this being long but i want to explain my situation first.

I am a mum of 3. 1st daughter, Kirsty 8, 1st son Jesse 7 and 2nd son Ben 1 year 2 weeks.

When i had Kirsty i did EVERYTHING wrong and i mean everything! she turned 8 in April and only this past month have i got her sleeping in her own bed all night on her own by having it in between our bed and the wall and the past week she has moved into her own newly decorated bedroom, fingers crossed this will now last. I feel this was all to do with me always being there for her to get to sleep, i used to lie with her at night to feed her to sleep first breast till about 4 months then she went on the bottle and this carried on, she also used to play with my hair. She also had a dummy which we broke her of around 4 1/2, just before school and boy that was hard too.

When i had Jesse i swore i was not going to make the same mistakes again and I'm proud to say i didn't and it worked. He goes to bed really well, sleeps all night long without waking and on his 2nd birthday his dad took his dummy out of his mouth, said your 2 now, you don't need it and that was that. 2 nights of a few little tears and asking if he could have it back but was told no as he was old enough to go without it and he was fine from then on in. he was also braestfed  for about 7 weeks but it just didn't satisfy him.

now.....when Ben was born, last september i breast fed again...and I'm still doing it now! I never thought i would or could ever breastfeed for this long but i feel I'm never going to break him of it either. I feel a repeat of Kirsty starting all over again and to be honest it scares me. Its got to the stage now that he won't or can't sleep on his own. I have to feed him or his daddy rocks him in his car seat. I used to be able to rock him too but now i can't. he now sleeps in our bed (he's in his cot until after his first waking anything from 1 hour to 3 hours) and basically gets fed during the night when he wakes. There is no way i can settle him otherwise, i have tried cuddling him, ignoring him etc but if he wakes, he gets up or starts rolling about and crying. I think a lot of this too is because whenever he woke from a baby i fed him, mainly because i didn't want him waking anyone else up. my hubby is a postman so gets up at 4am so he can't really help me on this or trying to get him sleep trained as he needs his sleep and to be honest i don't think he'd have the patience either so I'm on my own on this one. i know its going to be hard but it'll be worth it just to get a decent nights sleep for once. 

I really want to stick to it but am afraid i wont cause i am no good at routine. the only routine we have really is he gets up about 7.30 (has fed in the night but couldn't say what times as I'm too sleepy) has his breakfast about 8am and at 8.30 we take the kids to school. if i hang around after talking to other mums he gets fidgety and he cries cause he's tired. i usually get home by 9.10, feed him and he goes to sleep by 9.30. He may have an hour or two then. sometimes he wakes after 30 mins or so, so  i feed him again (on our bed) and he goes back to sleep. i have noticed that this past week he wasn't having as long, he'd even wake some days after 15 minutes and not go back to sleep but he is currently cutting 3 back teeth and 1 front pointy one so i think this could be the cause. In the 6 weeks school holidays he wasn't in his usual routine and it seemed like he was dropping one nap per day but since being back at school he is back to his old routine only its worse cause if i stop at the shops on the way home like i sometimes used to do he just cries cause he wants his sleep. He sometimes has 1 or maybe 2 more naps in the day, it seems sometimes he's more tired than others and usually goes to bed around 9-9.30, again lately he keeps switching between being rocked, feeding, being rocked etc and I've noticed if i bring him into the PC room and feed him he goes more or less straight off.

I tried getting him on to a bottles of formula when he was younger but he just wouldn't take them, he did for about 3 nights then self weaned off them, i tried it in cups and all sorts and he just kept spitting it out, i have wasted so many tins of formula trying to get him to take it, even now he doesn't really like cows milk. He used to have a dummy but self weaned from that too and so won't have one. He's not a cuddly baby unless he has just woken up and is still tired, if you don't let him wake up properly he is usually grumpy, most of the time he wakes up happy and as long as he's had a little stretch and roll around he's fine.

The only time he has gone to sleep on his own is in the car sometimes. I have found in the last month that sometimes he just lies on the floor and puts his head down like he's going to go to sleep but then he gets up and is off again, he is very active, always on the go and just wont sit still other than for his meals. I feel i need to stop his night feeding for one so it doesn't interfere with his daily food intake and to also help him from waking in the night.

I would just like advice as to how to go about sleep training him, how should i do it, what method would you think best, do i start with his day naps, night naps or all at once.

What about reducing his feeding in the night? do i go cold turkey or get him used to putting himself back to sleep on his own before i tackle stopping the feeds?

His cot is in our room so how can i do wi/wo like that during the night, do i get back into bed or literally walk out of the room till he goes back to sleep?

Usually in the day if i put him in his cot he starts crying straight away, if i stay in the room he settles down a bit...sometimes..if I'm lucky!  He has just woken up now so i went up to him and laid him back down and patted his back but he just kept wriggling to get up and wouldn't settle so i just fed him again and got him back to sleep in our bed.  I have noticed that when he wakes and cries, anytime, if he sees me going to get my boob out he stops crying straight away and smiles..is this cause he knows he's got his own way i wonder!!  I know i need to get this all under wraps asap but I only want to start the sleep training when i know i can stick at it but to be honest i really wonder if its going to work with him!

I do have the first book but haven't finished reading it yet as i just don't get the time, i only just managed to get this post on here tonight, I've often tried lol.

i really appreciate you all taking the time to read this for me and any help would be much appreciated.

Thank you  ;)


Offline Lucysmom

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Re: please help, 1st post, lots of sleep issues for 1 year old (long)
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2006, 00:53:05 am »
Hi There -

I am glad you had the time to post and I know that it may seem helpless right now but believe me it is not!  You are not the first mom to feed to sleep for over a year and you certainly will not be the last!  So HUGS to you and you will get through this.

So the main issues I am hearing are that he cannot fall asleep on his own and he does not have a routine.  You mentioned walk in/walk out and I do think that this would be your best option.  There is no other place for him to sleep besides your room, am I right?  At this age, a bedtime of 9 or 9:30 is a bit late so moving bedtime back to 8 or even 7:30 would help him settle more easily and cause him to be less tired and fussy the following morning.  So if you were to put him to bed at 8 you could do wi/wo with him since you and your dh would not be heading to bed at that point.  There is a great support thread for people doing wi/wo so I would use that to your heart's content. 

I did not breastfeed so I am not very knowledgeable about that, but I know there is a gentle removal plan that is detailed on this site.  I can have a look for it if you'd like.  I just looked around for it and could not find it but I could do some more looking because I know it was on this site before....  Basically, you still breastfeed, but then when your child starts nodding off or getting drowsy, you break the latch.  You repeat this process over and over.  My gut feeling is that this is not the way to go for you but again I do not know much about breastfeeding.  I just wanted to point it out to you in case it is something you might think would work for you.

I do hear what you're saying about not knowing if you have the will power or strength to do sleep training.  Yes, things will be hard and there will be crying.  But, things WILL GET BETTER if you bite the bullet and do the sleep training.  You may need to get your dh involved in the sleep training for your own sanity and because your ds associates you with breastfeeding.   But even if he will not help, just keep on thinking that you are enduring short-term pain to enjoy a long-term gain.  You can do this, and we will all be here to help and cheer you on.

Once he is going to sleep on his own and getting to bed for the night earlier, I think a routine will quickly follow.  Since he is 12 months, he is on the cusp of the 2 to 1 nap transition but since he is overtired at this point I would advise sticking to two naps.  Once he is more rested then you can determine if he needs just one afternoon nap, or a short morning nap and a longer afternoon nap, or whatever. 

I hope I have helped a bit.  I have tried but mostly I wanted to tell you we're here to listen, support, and encourage you as you decide what to do and do it.   I am sure others will chime in here with advice as well.  Let us know what your thoughts are.  And finally, please accept these {{{HUGS}}}.

Offline mum of 3

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Re: please help, 1st post, lots of sleep issues for 1 year old (long)
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2006, 08:51:19 am »
Hi Melissa

Thankyou for your reply and hugs, its greatly appreciated.


Ben is and has been in our room since he was born. He will share with Kirsty for a bit while he is young then we'll move him in with Jesse. To be honest i didn't know if i should put him in with kirsty now and start the sleep training or start the training first then move him.  I don't know what to do for the best as if he is going to be doing a lot of crying i don't want to wake kirsty up and have a battle on my hands with her as she sometimes interferes when I'm trying to sort Ben out. she won't always be quiet and will talk or play with him, thats why i thought train first then move but will he become unsettled again by the move of bedrooms and undo any work i have done?

we are also going away in October for a week in our caravan so he'll have to sleep with us again as he is too young to have his own bed and there is not enough room for a travel cot or anything for him so i thought it would be better  to wait till after then but it seems its just one thing after another and its going on and on i wonder if I'll ever get this started.

If you do come across the breast feeding link i would really appreciate it, I'll have a look too for it.

Thanks again

((HUGS))

Nikki

Offline Florencia

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Re: please help, 1st post, lots of sleep issues for 1 year old (long)
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2006, 17:28:47 pm »
Hi Nikki and welcome to the site!

It seems to me that Ben is overtired and is facing cumulative overtiredness. I'm amazed to read that he sometimes has 3 naps in a day! that can be a part of the problem too, too much sleep during daytime.

I know how hard it is to stick to a routine, especially with 2 older kids to tend to and a husband that works difficult hours. But you can do it, many moms here are on their own, working full times etc and they've managed to organize themselves cause a routine is the only thing that will help you get Ben's cues and help him settle.

So, I'd leave the weaning off for a bit. Let's work on the weaning on demand. That can be solved (not easily but it's doable) with a routine. And to install a routine you need to establish your priorities and build that routine according to your day. For example if Ben's waking at 7-730 in the morning, I'm afraid that a 910 am nap is too early for him. He might get fussy around that time cause he's used to be breastfed and go down but not actually tired (does that make sense?  ???). You can try introducing a snack around that time and keep his activities really low key, like reading books or watching a soft cartoon or a baby einstein dvd. The idea is to push the nap to a time where he's actually tired and ready to go to sleep, hence he won't need so much help and intervention from you.

Having skipped the obstacle of the 910 am nap, you can try that to be at least at 11 in the morning, 12 would be prefect cause that's the schedule most lo's seem to work best with, but try small changes everytime. OBserve him and try your best to hold back to his whines and fusses. I'm afraid that every time he's fussy you go with your breast and of course, that's soothing and that's relaxing and that frees endorphines which makes him feel relaxed and ok. But as he grows old, he needs to find other ways to feel happy and relaxed and you can teach him. Watch him like a hawk and figure out whether he's hungry, bored, tired...

Then when the nap time comes, set a mood, with soft music, do a long ritual (i know you must be overwelmed with housework but a couple of weeks with dirty, unironed clothes and frozen meals is a sacrifice your family can make in order to have a happy and rested mommy ;)). I always encourage moms with lo's that are difficult to put down to do a long wind down routine. It helps a lot to break the resistance and helps the lo to learn to relax and prepare for bedtime without much fights. So start with reading books, singing songs, if he lets you, give him a massage. I know you've mentioned he's not very cuddly but you can try at his own speed and then slowly incrementing the time. If he lets you give hima foot massage (a 10 secs one) go with it. There are amazing body lotions for babies with chamomile and lavender that help lo's to relax by aromatherapy. Try and introduce a quick rub on his back, behind his ears and on his feet. Whatever he lets you do, remember you have to go at his speed, and make this an enjoyable experience for him, not a torture. If you get started with 5-10 secs each day you'll be surprised he'll let you increase that and end in a good 5 mins massage that will leave him tired and ready to go to bed. If massage doesn't work, talk to him, tickle him, sing "body" songs saying good night to his body parts, put stuffed animals to bed, ring grandma to wish her night night, say bye bye to toys or things in the house... spend a good 20 mins setting the "sleep" mode. This will help you and him bond and find new ways to soothe other than the breast. Then bf him as part of this ritual but after he's finished put him in his cot. On the first days he might fall asleep in your breast, that's ok let's pick our battles. Once we have the routine stablished and going, we'll work on the breast-to sleep association.

If he wakes before the 1 hour mark, help him go back to sleep by using PD or WI/WO (you'll find those methods described in the FAQ section of this board). Let's see how he reacts to this new routine, he might sleep soundly for 2 hours, even 1.5 is ok.

Then as he wakes, do your evening as you're used to, introducing at least one more solid snack and a strong meal as dinner.

Then start your bedtime routine around 630 pm so he's hopefully inbed by 730. Deal with nightwakings with PD or wi/wo, and do not offer your breast before 5 am.

It will be hard, remember all he knows since he was born is this way. I suggest you to send your husband to sleep on the living room cause yes, it willb e loud and there will be cries. I can guarantee you tough that if he had a decent nap in the midday and good meals throughout the day, he won't starve or make him sick if you are strong and keep reassuring him with the methods suggested. But you have to be really positive that you will make it. The first times it will seem ages for you, but once you manage to set the message that boob's not going out in the middle of the night, he'll learn it and will sleep for you. Don't try for 30 mins and then offer the breast, that will be cruel for you and him cause then you've made him cry for nothing.

As for the room moving i'd recommend you to do this sleep/routine training in your room until the vacation's over and hopefully you'll be on track by the time you come back and will be able to move him to his brother's room at once.

I hope some of this makes sense to you. Be sure to come back and post on any comments doubts or vents you need. We're here for you, you can do this!!!!!!

Good luck!
Mom to Manolo, spirited monkey and Jose Miguel, an angel cupcake

Offline mum of 3

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Re: please help, 1st post, lots of sleep issues for 1 year old (long)
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2006, 22:57:25 pm »
Hi Florencia

Thank you so much  for responding with all the advice. I have noticed that some mornings he just doesn't want to go to sleep and he stays awake but he is really grumpy and miserable in the meantime and wants to be held all the time and then when 'daddy' comes in they both have a snack together then DH will rock Ben and he's asleep in minutes, but he still has a sleep generally later on too.

I do have a few questions for you, if you don't mind.

1. how many naps should he be having per day at his age and for how long?

2. you say start the routine/training now but what happens on holiday when he has to share our bed again?? we go 21-28 October.

3. do i start this routine all at once, from when he first gets up or just at night at first? If all at once would this routine sound about right...
   
   5am(ish)   breastfeed
   7.30(ish)  up
   8.00        breakfast
   9.10(ish)  snack
                 playtime
  11.am       lunchtime
  11.30        wind down - breastfeed - wind down
  12pm        put in cot, if he gets up cries etc do pd or wi/wo. When he wakes start routine all over again?   

How long should his morning sleep be for? what happens if he wakes after say 10-20 minutes  like he has been doing these last few days? do i start pd/wi/wo or just get him up?

4. he is currently teething, cutting 3 of his big back teeth and i front one, should i still start this now or wait?

oh and how do i go about doing pd/wi/wo during the night when i am in bed in the same room?

sorry to be a nuisance but i sure want to get this right for when i start. I know the 1st night will be bad but will it get worse before it gets better?  i think i have read the 3rd night is like hell, is this about right? if so i think i better plan that 3rd night for a Saturday so i can have a lie in on sunday  morning ;D

thanks so much again for your help.

Nikki
« Last Edit: October 02, 2006, 22:59:29 pm by mum of 3 »

Offline Florencia

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Re: please help, 1st post, lots of sleep issues for 1 year old (long)
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2006, 19:31:55 pm »
Hi back Nikki, I'll try to answer the best i can:

1. how many naps should he be having per day at his age and for how long?
Usually, toddlers around Ben's age have 2 naps ranging from 1 to 2 hours each or transition early to one nap a day, ranging from 1 to 3 hours. I suggested you a 1 nap a day schedule cause I think he's just catnapping throughout the day so it'll be better for him to have just one solid nap and deal just with 2 times a day for putting him down (that is, the nap and bedtime) given that he's got so many issues to solve.
2. you say start the routine/training now but what happens on holiday when he has to share our bed again?? we go 21-28 October.

The routine should remain while you're on holidays and the training might have a regression when you get back from your holidays but if you've already been consistant with both, routine and training, it shouldn't take him long to get back on track once the holidays are over.

3. do i start this routine all at once, from when he first gets up or just at night at first? If all at once would this routine sound about right...

You should pick what suits you and Ben's temper best. I always advice to try with days and nights from day one, but some moms prefer a smoother transition. Trying all at once will be hard on him and you but it's more likely to produce results in a shorter period of time. It depends on you and how tired you think you'll be. You can try both for the first 3 days and if gets too wild, you can go back to nights or days only. It's not written in stone.

   5am(ish)   breastfeed
   7.30(ish)  up
   8.00        breakfast
   9.10(ish)  snack
                 playtime
  11.am       lunchtime
  11.30        wind down - breastfeed - wind down
  12pm        put in cot, if he gets up cries etc do pd or wi/wo. When he wakes start routine all over again?   

That's right, do this routine everyday and hopefully when you eliminate so many feeds at night, in time you'll be able to get rid of the 530 am feed as well. For night wakings, don't follow a routine, just do wi/wo or pd.

How long should his morning sleep be for? what happens if he wakes after say 10-20 minutes  like he has been doing these last few days? do i start pd/wi/wo or just get him up?

My guess is that by tweaking his schedules, he'll be more likely to sleep for a consistant hour or more, but keeping in mind you're only gonna offer one nap a day, you should try your best for this nap to be long, so yes, if he wakes after a short period (less than 1 hour) you should do wi/wo or pd to help him go back to sleep. Average toddler sleeps from 1 to 3 hours as daytime sleep.

4. he is currently teething, cutting 3 of his big back teeth and i front one, should i still start this now or wait?

This is up to you to decide. I'd recommend you to offer him pain meds before nap and bedtime to help him relax and prevent him to wake from pain but again, it's up to you and what you think will suit you best.
oh and how do i go about doing pd/wi/wo during the night when i am in bed in the same room?

Try to block his view from you, with a pile of boxes or a sheet so he gets his "own" space. If you're doing the wi/wo before you're in bed it shouldn't be a problem cause you'd walk out. If you're already sleeping and he wakes, do the wi approaching his crib and then the wo leaving his sight as much as possible.

sorry to be a nuisance but i sure want to get this right for when i start. I know the 1st night will be bad but will it get worse before it gets better?  i think i have read the 3rd night is like hell, is this about right? if so i think i better plan that 3rd night for a Saturday so i can have a lie in on sunday  morning ;D

Well, there are no magical formulas here. Some lucky moms have a rough first 40 mins and then it's all smooth. Some others have difficult nights for a 2 weeks period. It all depends on the lo and the consistancy of the person who's doing the sleep training... and a bit of luck too. :P ;D

I hope i made some sense and we all are here for you to support you during this stage. Good luck and keep us posted!
« Last Edit: October 03, 2006, 19:36:50 pm by Florencia »
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Offline mum of 3

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Re: please help, 1st post, lots of sleep issues for 1 year old (long)
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2006, 20:38:32 pm »
Thanks for getting back so quick i really appreciate it.

I think i am going to wait till he is more settled with his teeth, it just seems they are getting worse for him, the last day or two he is just waking so quick after he goes to sleep and lastnight was quite bad too, although he didn't go to sleep in the end until about 11pm lastnight and didn't want to get up this morning, neither did i :D  i did hold back today on his nap time though, think it was about 10.15 when he went to sleep for about an hour total (with waking once) and he had another short doze about 2.30 for an hour this afternoon. He actually went to bed at 8pm tonight (earliest for a long time  :o) but was awake within about 20 minutes. i tried twice to re-settle him but as soon as i put him down he woke again crying/screaming so DH cuddled him, got him to sleep, put him inhis cot and bam! awake again, in the end i put his teeth stuf on his gums and DH laid on the bed with him, said i wasn't to feed him and he went off, eventually...phew!

I've been giving him meds for his teeth at bedtime and throughout the day but it doesn't seem to help that much, he's not eating to well either  :'(

Will keep you posted anyway and thanks again.

Offline Florencia

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Re: please help, 1st post, lots of sleep issues for 1 year old (long)
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2006, 17:41:16 pm »
ouch! it seems he's in real pain. I'm sorry to hear meds are not helping, perhaps if you talk to his ped he might authorize an increase in the dosage or a change of prescription? anyways, just wanted to let you know we'll be here whenever you decide to get started or even before if you need some support or advice.

Good luck!
Mom to Manolo, spirited monkey and Jose Miguel, an angel cupcake

Offline JanJ

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Re: please help, 1st post, lots of sleep issues for 1 year old (long)
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2006, 04:26:55 am »
Hi, I just wanted to say good luck and give you a hug.  I know what it is like having a baby that wants to sleep with you and likes to breast feed off to sleep.  I am currently trying to change my ds habits and am having success, although we have a way to go yet.
Good luck and persevere, it will be worth it
Janet :)