7mo NW- pls check our progress

[Ruggie]

Hi,

We have been battling NW for 4 weeks now and have just eliminate the night bottle for the last 2 nights (result of much needed support and advice recived via chat when the site was down, thanks again ladies  and so Iam more confident to do hard core PU/PD.

I just have a few questions and want some confirmation that Iam doing the right thing, The NW does throws thing a bit when trying to keep to EASY.

Here goes...

DS is 7 mo and daily routine looks like this atm:

6 wake bottle-takes very little, I practically have to force feed 70-80ml
7:00 B/Fast: fruits and cereal
9:00 Nap 1.5-2 hours

11:30 lunch-a combination of veg, carb & protein. Takes about 4 ice cubes
12:30 bottle max of 120ml
1/1:30 nap for 1.5-2 hours

2:30ish bottle 120ml
4:30 dinner lunch-a combination of veg, carb & protein. Takes about 4 ice cubes

5:30 we used to cat nap here, but been resisting it for the last week. I still give him the chance just the same.

6:00 bath, bottle 80-120ml and bed by 6:30ish
10:30 DF 120-140ml

NW starts anywhere between 2-3:30 and wont settle until well after 5 and would sleep until 6 where he  starts his day.
When he wakes I dont go in until he cries, where I would hold him until he stops and PU wide awake, I walk out (or hide out of sight), usually he would cry again wihtin 20mins. This would repeat each time when we PD he is a little more drowsy then the next. When he does sleep, it doesn't last long, he would wake and cry again in about 30-45 min.

Props wise, he gets a dummy for naps and not at night and we had no prob with this (not with DS#1 either). Tho I had to use dummy a few times in the last week for NW due to my own tiredness, but that doesn't help either. He still cry and sometimes the dummy is still in his mouth so I suppose he is not waking for the dummy.

I always give him a blankey whenever he sleeps/nap, but he doesn't seems to care if its there or not, I still give it to him just the same.

Questions:

1. Before when he cat nap, bedtime was 6:45-7 where he goes down awake and settle himself within 10mins. Now that he doesn't (4 days now), bedtime is 6:30. Since he has been awake from 2:30/3pm, is this too long and he is overtired?
He is starting to dosed off on the bottle and I have been trying to wake him up, even if I can get him to open his eyes slightly or a slight cry or something, so that when I put him in the cot he fusses about a bit and settles himself.

2. He is not really interested in his milk and would turns away to look around. I practically force feed him his milk, if not he would only take 20-50ml. Should I drop a bottle somewhere? My initial thought is that he is too young and need all the milk he can get?

3. Since he doesn't catnap, thought I tried to give him some extra calories and offered him a few teaspoon of custards at around 5:45ish. Yesturday was OK, today before bed, he puked the custard out and didn't take much milk. Snack good idea or not?

4. Some nights during PU, his eyes are closed, but still crying, monotone (is that mantra cry?). I have just realized that this is not real crying so starting to put him down, which he cries again and immediately PU...and so it goes...usually ends with me PD and he starts to fuss and monotone cry so I just pat until stop and place a friom hand on him, if he cries hyterically I PU, or cry in a monotone way I go back to patting and stops when he calm and let him does the last few whimper with my hand on him.
-Is this still OK with PU/PD?

5. Can anyone see any room for improvement with our routine?

I am so sleep deprived that any help, advice, support is very much needed. Thanks

[Ruggie]

Night 1

We survived night 1, barely!

I heard him at his usual 3:30am, but this time sounds like he went back to sleep. At 4, he woke, crying, DH went in and PU/PD, I took over at 5. We gave him water in his sippy cup.
At 5:50 I gave him a bottle, he took 120ml and passed out. I am intending to let him sleep and wake him at 6:30-7 if he doesn't wake by himself for breakfast. I intend to keep to his usual routine as much as possible, but most probably he wont survive his 3 hour awake time, thinking i might need to put him down earlier

Mood: tired, but very hopeful

[Colin Macs Mom]

Hiya Ruggie, nice to see you posting after the chat while the board was down. 

Some thoughts for you...

He probably doesn't take that first morning bottle well because he's had so much to eat at night and is still full. I know we talked about this on the chat, but keep up with the PU/PD as hard as it is. I WILL pay off! Definitely visit the PU/PD board if you haven't already.

1. Before when he cat nap, bedtime was 6:45-7 where he goes down awake and settle himself within 10mins. Now that he doesn't (4 days now), bedtime is 6:30. Since he has been awake from 2:30/3pm, is this too long and he is overtired?
He is starting to dosed off on the bottle and I have been trying to wake him up, even if I can get him to open his eyes slightly or a slight cry or something, so that when I put him in the cot he fusses about a bit and settles himself.

He very well could be overtired by bedtime now. At that age my DS definitely couldn't have handled being awake that long. You might try moving the other naps forward by 15 min or so to balance that timing better.

2. He is not really interested in his milk and would turns away to look around. I practically force feed him his milk, if not he would only take 20-50ml. Should I drop a bottle somewhere? My initial thought is that he is too young and need all the milk he can get?

Most LOs drop a bottle around 7.5 months (it's normal  ) so that could very well be what's happening here. Between that and ending those nights feeds you should see an increase in his intake in the other feeds. The third feed of the day is usually first to go.

3. Since he doesn't catnap, thought I tried to give him some extra calories and offered him a few teaspoon of custards at around 5:45ish. Yesturday was OK, today before bed, he puked the custard out and didn't take much milk. Snack good idea or not?

Hmmmm. Was that the first time he had custard? You might try something easy on the tummy, like pears or something like that.

4. Some nights during PU, his eyes are closed, but still crying, monotone (is that mantra cry?). I have just realized that this is not real crying so starting to put him down, which he cries again and immediately PU...and so it goes...usually ends with me PD and he starts to fuss and monotone cry so I just pat until stop and place a friom hand on him, if he cries hyterically I PU, or cry in a monotone way I go back to patting and stops when he calm and let him does the last few whimper with my hand on him.
-Is this still OK with PU/PD?

That does sound like it's a mantra cry. When he does that it's very important to leave him alone. He's putting himself back to sleep, and if you interfere with that process he won't maintain the ability to do that or achieve independent sleep. I'm definitely not a PU/PD expert as it didn't work for us, but I wouldn't pat or leave your hand on him if he's mantra crying.

5. Can anyone see any room for improvement with our routine?

Not really, aside from shifting the naps forward a little if you can.

[Ruggie]

Hi Jessica,

While I missed the board dearly, I enjoyed the chats. Got to know a few moms queit well Now I miss the chat 

Night 2

He woke at 3:30 and DH PU/PD for 1 hour before he slept, he didn't cry as violent as the night before so hopefully that means he is getting the idea. He slept at 4:30 and we heard him at 5:30 but didn't go in until 6. Dont know if he went back to sleep, or just plays by himself. I suspect he played in his cot coz he was really tired and grizzly by 8, so I put him to nap at 8:15 (usual nap is 9). He only nap for 45 mins so now our day is a bit our of whack.

Thinking of dropping his mid morning bottle then, as this is the bottle that we struggle with the most, and it was the 1st to go with #1 at 8.5 month, perhaps DS#2 is just faster, (oh I just want him to be a baby forever ).

But the important achivements is that there is no more night feed  Been like that for 4 or 5 nights now. Yuppeeeee!!!!

Thanks for the continuing support. I dont think anyone else understand or appreciate how hard it is but other than BW moms.

Hopefully tonight will be better. I can see the light!

[Colin Macs Mom]

Congratulations on ending the night feed!! That's a HUGE accomplishment!!      You're doing great, just hang in there and it will all be worth it.

[Ruggie]

Night 3,
he woke at 4 and I just came in, a gentle rub on his back (found him on his tummy) and he went back to sleep til morning !!!!
I couldn't believe it! off course I didn't go back to sleep half expecting him to cry, but he didn't!

Night 4
He woke at 5am and a quick settle and he slept til morning!

I Love my son
Thank you so much Jessica I think we are well on our way!
Fingers crossed thats its only gets better!

[Colin Macs Mom]

That's fantastic Loanne, I am so glad that things are getting so much better.      You're doing great!

[Ruggie]

Hi

Iam back.

Night 5 and 6 wasn't so good. But hey Tracy ,did mentioned regression, so we persisted.
And then he got a low grade fever, cheeks are red and gum swollen. Talk about timing! So we had to stop with the PU/PD and comfort him while he is teething. No teeth cut throught yet, but we can just see the whites line. If he is anything like DS#1 it will be that way until 11 mth. Thats is over now, thank god!
Anyway, so we back to square 1, only I think he is throwing seperation anxiety into the mix just to keep things 'interesting'

NW
Starts as early as 2am, but tends to be around 3:30-4 am until 6
What we been doing is wait until he is really crying before going into his room. This is the result of us doing SLOW
He would either:
-he stops as soon as I enter and look at me. He is not crying so I walk out, then crying starts.
On these wakings he would go back to sleep if I sit by his cot with my hand on him, but only for 30-60mins where he would wake again. Repeat. If I sty in the room, he is more likely to settle.
-or he would cry violently, which we try PU/PD. Usually he would arches his back and push us away, so we PD. No matter what we do, he would cry violently, so we give him the dummy. He would settles and sleeps, again only for about 30-60 mins and wakes again. Repeat.  I know he is not waking to look for the dummy because the dummy is still in his mouth when he cries.

For the last 2 nights we ended up sleeping on the floor in his room from 5-6.

So I am thinking, We dealing with NW habits and seperation anxiety. Any thoughts? So what should I do?

This is whats I have been trying:
-tried to extend awake time and keep to 2 naps. 9-11 and 1:30-3. That means he goes to bed at 6pm now, wide awake and settle himself. DF at 10:30.
-I am been giving him more attention during the day and he is content to play by himself too. When he is upset, I would tell him I am here (so he can hear my voice at least if I am busy) until I can get to him.
-We play lots of peek-a-boo too.
-change to the next size teat, so he is taking more milk too.

Except for the 2 good nights we had, it has been 8 weeks now and both DH and I are really tired. Dont know how much more of this I can take really

[Colin Macs Mom]

Hi Loanne,

It does sound to me like there's some separation anxiety going on, as well as the teething.    What's worked for a lot of people is to stay in the room in a chair, and slowly day by day move the chair closer to the door until you're out of the room.

[Ruggie]

Thanks jessica,

I will try that.
Just another question, do you think 2 lots of nap of 1.5 - 2 hr is enough for him?
wake 6am
nap 9-11
nap 1:30/2-3/3:30
Bed 6:30/7

This leaves him with 3 hours awake time, and I think Tracy said he should be awake for 2 - 2.5 at his age. But then sometimes he nap for 2.5 hours. Can the long nap balance the long awake time? (should I post this in nap?)
I also read from our local health resouce that at his age, he needs 4-5 hour nap and 10-12 sleep. So I am lost. While I can stretch his awake time, I dont know if I should, am I depriving him of nap time?
Up until this whole NW, he has always nap more than what his age group, it didn't effect his night sleep then so I left him.

(Sorry about the rambling)

[Colin Macs Mom]

Every LO is different, and if yours does fine on that schedule then go with it. That 4-5 nap and 10-12 night sleep is average, and what's average anyway?    My DS for example has always needed more sleep than most, so people would look at our routine and instantly say he was getting too much day sleep. But for him that was what he needed.

But honestly at his age I would think that two lots of 1.5 or 2 hour naps would be enough.

[Ruggie]

Hi

Just thought I give a quick update of our progress.
The night before last, he woke at 4:30 (his best by far), resettle and slept til 5:30, where we can hear him play in his cot until 6.
Last night, heard him cried twice at 3:30  and then nothing, and was up again at 4:30 again, resettle until 5:45! WOOHOOO!!!
Hope I am not jinxing it, but things are looking well for us
BFN

[litomi]

Hi, Ruggie.... My 7.5mo. LO is doing the same thing.... I'm so so exhausted. I've to wait until the winter break to really do PU/PD for NW and really work on our routine . Right now, writing progress reports, organising for Christmas concert, parties, etc. + LO's NW are driving me nuts
I feel like walking dead when I go into my classroom.

[Ruggie]

Hi Litomi

<<Hugs>>,
at least we know we are not the only one

Just saw a tooth cut thru today! So excited So he was crying for a genuine reason, hope that phase is behind us for now anyway.

Hope winter break is not too far for you. Take care...sending sleeping vibes your way...ZZZzzz

[Colin Macs Mom]

Isn't it nice when you get a result from all the yelling?  At least there's something to show for it!!