I don't understand this about naps...

[Leosmama]

I've managed to successfully sleep-train my 13 mo. old for nighttime; he goes in his crib awake and can fall asleep on his own (although with a bit of protesting at first if he's overtired), sleeps through the night, although he wakes up ridiculously early.  But I haven't really sleep-trained him for naps, except for half-hearted attempts to put him down drowsy but awake only to have him pop right back up and get a second wind, and then if my husband is home he'll end up having to rock and sing him down for a nap.

I know it's supposed to be harder to train for naps, but how can they go from being practically asleep to wide awake?  At first he cries when I put him in the crib, and I lay him down and rub his back for a few seconds, and then he just sits up and starts playing with his stuffed animals!  I know I shouldn't give up at that point because that only sends him the message that I don't mean business.  I guess I just haven't gotten up the guts to go through what could be really stressful, plus he may not actually nap at all.

Should I do wo/wi for his naps?  Because my gradual withdrawel technique of staying in the room with him really doesn't seem to work during the day.  If I do wo/wi, can anyone give me any pointers?

Thanks,

Jennifer

[ks6]

If it helps, around the same age my ds started to play with his stuffed animals.  I've put him in the crib and he can party for up to an hour!  He always falls asleep eventually, and he's happy, so I leave him.  In the last month the crib parties have gotten MUCH shorter.  (By the way, the crib parties began when he was ready to switch to one nap.)

[albertasweetpea]

Hi Jennifer. Does your LO have 1 or 2 naps usually?? If he is taking 1 nap what time do you put him down, or better question would be how long from his awake time in the morning to his nap time?? For example, if Molly wakes at 7 she will go from 5-6 hours and then it is nap time! Usually if we can catch her right at 5.5 hours, it is idea. Anything shorter or longer, her nap will be much shorter.
When you put your LO down for his nap and he plays, do you just leave him to play for a bit? What is his reaction to that?? Is he crying when he wants to get out, or just merely fussing about? If he is just fussing, I would say leave him to it and he may just settle himself. If he goes down at bedtime with no problems, he can likely do it at naptime as well. The reason he seems to go from practically asleep to wide awake is because he has figured out that if he doesn't go to sleep (even though he is tired), then Mommy or Daddy will come and get him and it's PLAY TIME!!  Pretty smart little munchkins that's for sure!

[Leosmama]

Well, it seems like we're in the midst of the hellish 2-1 nap transition, so some days he takes two, some days one (depending on when we got up for the day).  So today for instance, I got him back to sleep after an early wake, and he slept till 7:20.  So I knew he would not take a morning nap, and planned instead for the one nap to start around 12:30-1:00 (also aiming for that 5.5 hr A time).  I took him to his room, read a quiet book, and nursed a bit.  As he was getting super drowsy, I put him down and he immediately starts to cry.  I sit on the floor next to his crib and pat the mattress so he'll lay down, and then I rub his back.  Then after a minute or two of laying there quietly (and I've moved away a bit) he starts playing and is wide awake.  If I were to leave his room, he would freak; we've had SA going on for a while and whenever I've tried doing that he becomes absolutely hysterical.  This is why I'm wondering if I should do wo/wi, so he can eventually fall asleep or at least be ok in there by himself.

[Katet]

I think the nursing before nap might be part of the problem, it is giving him an energy kick & so he is drowsy from the oxytocin in the bm, but once that wears off he is ready to go again from the lactose (milk sugar).
Have you tried doing the nap routine without the nursing... that is what I'd be doing before you try wi/wo or any other method... mostly past 1yo putting them down for a nap drowsy isn't a good thing as they want to remain in the conditions (arms/nursing/stroller etc) that helped them get there.

[Leosmama]

Hi Kate,

Yes, I have often thought that I really need to cut out the nursing before nap.  However, the minute I stop doing that I feel like I either need another plan in place to get him down, or just immediately start wi/wo.  If I held him in the rocking chair without nursing him, he would get really upset and won't hold still (believe me, I've tried!)  This is why dh can hold him in the chair and he'll fall right to sleep. 

So how should I stop the nursing before naps?  Cold turkey and jump right in to sleep training (i.e. wi/wo)?  Or should I gradually cut back on the nursing?

Thanks,

Jennifer

[Katet]

I would give up the bf (do it when he wakes, esp if he wakes after a short nap, that helped us no end in the 2-1 transition, as he had a long feed) & find another chair & read stories for about 5-10mins & then comfort him in the cot, by patting & talking if he is upsetetc... In my opinion wi/wo should only be used if the toddler won't settle with you in the room (ie just keeps playing) if the toddler is upset I think leaving the room when they are upset causes more problems... it can feel easier (& quicker) to leave when they are upset but it tells a message that they need to work it out themselves if you leave at a point ... once they start settling with you in the room, leave by all means but only when they are calm/settling down

I found (after a bad patch for us) that reading the books & having a "set mantra" (written out in his room) I used when I calmed him & then sang a lullaby the whole time I was there really helped us get things under control... as what you are trying to teach them is the routine that indicates they need to relax & it is time for sleep... so the more consistent you are the better... when you change things it confuses them & means they are basically back to square one again. Realistically it can take an hour or more to settle them when you change a routine, but if you give up & go back to an old method you are being unfair to everyone.

I hope that makes sense, 2 sick children (one also teething) has meant not much sleep the last 2 nights & early morning starts so my brain is very fuzzy

[aidenmc]

Hi again Leosmama,

I have the same problem with Aiden and naps. More often than not (partly because he is exhausted by then anyway) he will fall asleep during the feed (which I do in a different room). If he is not dead asleep when I carry him to his room he will kick up a huge fuss. I give in to preserve the nap. A couple of days ago I did get him down in his crib but it took forever. I am going to try to do the cold turkey thing by having DH do his naps during the Christmas holidays with no feed. He seems to be better able to gethim to settle.

[Leosmama]

In theory, I like the idea of me staying with him in his room and comforting him in his crib.  However, with the little experience I've had in trying to do this he just gets so hysterical that I'm not confident in my ability to get him quiet with me in the room.  But, I like the mantra/lullaby idea and will give it a try tomorrow.

Becky, I try whenever it's possible to get dh to put him down for naps, so he's not always getting nursed down for them.  But lately, he's even been getting upset when dh takes him in the room for naps.  I'll let you know how the next few days go.

Jennifer

p.s. sorry to hear about the sickness and teething; hope you get some rest soon!

[Katet]

Jennifer, the hysterical is actually a good thing... it is him telling you that we don't do it that way, which actually opens the door to you showing him yes you do... if you can get past 3-6 days then you will probably find amazing differences. The key to it is really to know it can take ages, but they will learn better if you are there to help. The fact he gets upset when your dh takes him says he "prefers" the nursing, so in all honesty now is the time.
A few months ago (transitioning to 1 nap) ds#2 fell asleep in the stroller or car almost every day for over a week - on off before that (due to sibling/family activities) & at bed time he would fall asleep feeding ...when I went to get him to sleep in his cot at nap time one day, it was hellish, he was so angry - that wasn't what we did (even after that short time) , but we got there & in 2 days things were better... it will take longer as you don't have the same thing to fall back on, but the point is they do learn habits, so you want to teach them the best one & I for one HATE it when I get stressed about bedtime being difficult because of change KWIM... so knowing (due to ds#1) things can be good, the investment has always been hard but worth it.

[Leosmama]

So how long do you stay in there with them before giving up for that particular nap?  45 minutes, or an hour?  You've given me the confidence to do this, so I'm bracing myself for the storm tomorrow (yikes!)

[Katet]

well I stayed in there until I either got him to sleep (I don't think it took over an hour) or I had to tend to my older son who had woken up... I've never put a time on it as that just tended to make me anxious or impatient, I found going with my gut instincts that it was time to stop (which was an issue with resettling after a short nap) rather than a time frame.
But before you do it make sure you have a really good wind-down routine eg nappy change, stories, cuddle, same verbal message that you have written out so you remember it each time... that wind down is 95% of the key to the process of their expectation & knowledge it is time to go to sleep.
Even at bedtime here if ds#2 can't give goodnight kisses to ds#1 & his daddy, he is much harder to get to bed (to bedroom actually) .... ds#1 is the same, if something changes in his routine & he is 3.

[Leosmama]

Just wanted to pat myself on the back; I started today with Leo's nap and after just over an hour, he went to sleep on his own!  I want to thank you, Kate, for all of the suggestions.  I had a good winddown, started softly doing the mantra (a sing-songy "nap-time for Le-o") and put him in the crib.  He cried and resisted quite a bit, then had a bit of playtime in his crib while I layed on his floor and "slept".  Every now and then he'd start crying and I'd go pat his mattress, he'd lie down and I'd rub his back and repeat the mantra.  Once it had gotten to the 50 minute mark, I got him to lay down one last time as I layed my hand on his back and started singing a lullaby.  Thank goodness, he closed his eyes and drifted off to sleep!

So now my question is: how long will I need to stay with him in his room while he goes to sleep?  Will this make him dependent on always having me in the room in order to go down for a nap?  Do I do gradual withdrawel, or should I progress to wo/wi once he's not getting upset anymore?

Thanks guys.  This has really given me some hope.

[Katet]

Well done Yeah for you & Leo

Ok what I would do is keep it much the same for 3-5 days, then he should have an idea of what is happening (from the winddown routine) but at the same time work towards gradual withdrawral... moving away from him & really taking him as your guide, if he is happy playing leave, but go back & reassure if he gets upset... ie do what he needs to be comforted so if he is really upset & you need to stroke his back/head do it until he calms, but stop once he does, or if he gets up set when you leave the room, stay, but always try to get that one step less involvment when you can...does that make sense.
Like you did lying on the floor & "sleeping" when he played, you decrease interaction when you can & by all means try to leave the room if you see a point that it might be ok... that may be 2 days away or a week or 2, just try to use him as a guide.
Also be prepared for a regression at some stage in the next 3-7 days, where it seems to fall apart, but just be incontrol & do everything the same