Restarting EASY - couple of questions

[catty47]

We've got 2 under 2, and have spent most of the last 12 weeks dealing with the horrific sleep regressions of #1!  Poor #2 has just had to wing it a bit, although I have been promoting independent sleep as much as possible with her.  With #1's sleep problems we haven't had the freedome of movement to get #2 in her cot upstairs for fear of disturbing the delicate sleep of #1.  From birth almost she was on 4 hourly feeds, sort of - but was very colicky in the evenings, which she has pretty much grown out of now.  She's also had a horrid cough and cold these last three weeks, so I haven't really been able to observe properly what she's doing.  She wakes in the night with breathing difficulties, and is still a pretty windy baby.  On a good night, she just wakes once at 1 or 2ish, on a bad night it's 12, 2 or 3, then 4.30, like last night.

I'd like to get her going on a proper EASY now, and a proper bedtime upstairs in her cot (in our room) - I really think I could probably get her through the night, but only if I get cracking with EASY.  It won't be easy because I need somehow to shoehorn her in to #1's routine, so I just need a bit of advice with the following.

At 12 weeks is it too young to start a 4 hour EASY?  Should I try and go with a 3.5hr to start with?  It's not so much the feeding, but the sleeping I gather...

Getting round the bedtime routine is what is hard - at the moment it's really difficult getting a 'catnap' in between 5 and 6, because #1's routine is 5pm tea, 6pm bath, 6.15-6.45pm stories and bedtime.  I can't be there for #2 when she wakes, so she tends to come along for the ride with a feed at 5.30pm, then bath, then sitting with us, swaddled for stories.  I tend to pop her in her cot, never mind sleep cues, while I settle #1, which only takes a few minutes.  So, should I then go in and get #2, and go through the 4S routine until she settles or go downstairs, have a feed and do it from there?  It's a long time awake that's the thing! 
And what about cluster feeding?

Lastly, she tends to sleep till quite late in the morning - it's 9am and she's still sleeping, but usually it's more like 8 or 8.30.  For the ease of EASY should I start from there, or get her waking earlier.  It seems like anathema when we're dealing with 5am wakings with #1!

I also need to implement the dreamfeed, but I'll need to set my alarm for that - I'm just so pooped I'm in bed by 9 these days! 

Anyway, any opinions or advice on what would be the best sample routine to follow would be helpful - there seem to be several options I could follow.  Thanks,

Catherine

[*Mona*]

hi Catherine.

sorry to hear things are not easy up on you but you're doing a great job trying to get your Dd on easy and deal with Ds's sleep issues.

what I think is that before putting her on a routine you should be completely 100% sure she's recovered from her illness. if she's not, your attempts of putting her on routine may not succeed I'm afraid.

if she's 12 weeks it's not even 3 months of age so I would first focus on 3,5 hrs EASY routine, especially that her activity/sleep times are not long enough for 4 hrs routine just yet.

here's the link to the transition:
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=63161.0

about her evenings, when you say you put her in her cot already swaddled and settle your Ds, what is she doing then? fall asleep on her own or stay awake crying or just lie happy in her crib? if she tends to drift off I wouldn't take her down for the whole 4s thing as it may be too stimulating.
but I suppose she's not exactly ready to go to sleep at 7pm as she tends to sleep in till late in the morning?

could you post your current routine so that we can see where you want to start from?

Monika

[catty47]

I think I'll have to keep a diary to tell you her routine!
It's always been EASY in that I have tried not to feed her to sleep (I fell big time into the boobprop trap with my first daughter - what a nightmare that was!); I have also swaddled consistently which is a godsend, and tried to observe the sleep signs.  But as for actual timings it really varies.  Basically however, it goes something like this:

8ish wakes and feed
9.30ish asleep (often in her bouncer chair, swaddled.  She is great at falling asleep but it's not in her/our room in her crib.)
12 wakes and feed
2ish asleep (again, often in bouncer)
4ish wakes and feed
if we go out might catnap in the pushchair/sling till
5.30 feed
6.15pm bath
6.30/6.45 thrown in crib!
7.30/8 falls asleep downstairs in bouncer
45mins later awake
9pm feed and bed (often feeding to sleep or rocking - it's all gone a bit haywire at this point!)
If we're lucky 1 wake at 1 or 2 am, but sometimes is 12am, 2am 4.30am,
6 - 6.30am feed

As you can see, if she doesn't get a sleep between the 4ish wake and nearly 7, it's a long time awake, so understandably she often kicks off at storytime, and only ever settled once when I put her in the crib.  Plus it's not very relaxing - there's no 4s there!  The thing is I kind of need to keep this bit of the routine so that it's what we end up doing, with the two of them to deal with.

I think you might be right about the 3.5 hours - she may need to stuff her face more in the day to get her through the night and stabilise the night feeds.  Not that I'm answering my own questions or anything....!

[*Mona*]

hi Catherine

well, i think the problem may be that she's just overtired in the evening if no catnap and that's why she wakes up 45 minutes later. she gets some good amount of sleep during the day, about 4,5 hrs judging from your routine, so she shouldn't need more than 30 min catnap IMO but if she doesn't get it at all she must be way too tired to sleep peacefully throughout the night.

3 months old:
Night: 10 hours;
Day: 5 hours - 3 naps, 2 naps of 1.75 hours and 1 of 1.5 hours;
Total:  15 hours
that's in general how much your lo should be sleeping in 24 hours, so you're about there with naps.

have you seen this one?:
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=63933.0
it's about teaching independent sleep to Lo#2 with toddler around.

there's one thing I don't understand- do you feed her at 6:30 and then again at 8? does she take a full feed both times?

again, I'd recommend 3,5 easy to 'stuff her more' as you say
don't worry about 4s that much, it's a good thing you're swaddling her and trying not to feed her to sleep. she should be sleeping/napping more in her crib thou. can you have her crib in your room to keep it quiet for your Ds if she wakes?

please keep us posted how your night/day goes.

Monika

[catty47]

Yes, I looked at that post - useful, and realistic too!

I'll keep a full diary of her routine today - I'm really struggling to remember stuff at the moment!  Not enough deep sleep I don't think by a long stretch.

I agree about the cot naps - we did it yesterday and she was fine, woke after 45 minutes but put herself back to sleep within 5 minutes.  Then woke again after 20 minutes.  (Unless she was just awake and quiet...!  Although she's quite chatty so I don't think that's the case.)  So hopefully that will all come together.

Yes, she'll take full feeds but the storytime one is far from ideal - I'm juggling her on my lap and books and cuddles with #1 - it's an airy, slurpy feed, but it helps keep things calm at #1's bedtime, which is important for keeping her on track.  I tend then to try and 'finish' that feed downstairs by winding her a bit, and filling her up with the other boob etc, and also I feel it sort of 'restarts' EASY and calms her down.

Last night was a bit better - she had a nap up to 6pm on our way back from friends.  She was in bed by 8.30 but needed full-on sh-pat to get there (it's a really loud shh isn't it?!  I was quite surprised but it worked - she was kicking off quite a lot).  She woke again after 45 minutes, but with wind.  Then went till 2am, so with her last feed at 8pm that's going through the night, but in the wrong place!  I'd forgotten to set my alarm for the dreamfeed because I was also in #1s room with her night waking and just got crawled into bed at 9.30, exhausted! 

She woke at 4.30 with wind again (that's two nights in a row now), and I ended up feeding her at 4.45, then she slept till 8.45am.

Really, she seems quite happy to sleep a lot, it's just getting it in the right place. 

She's really trying to suck her fingers/thumb, and failing, but it'll be great when she does!  I suppose that will be in a month or so? 

I'm worried about her wind, and her poos, so I might check out some of the EAT messageboards too.  I'll post today's diary tonight, if that's okay, to see what your thoughts are?  Thanks a million for helping out - it's really good to have a mentor!

[*Mona*]

hi
so it looks like things are falling int place a bit? great.
I'm sure you're exhausted so big hugs to you and I hope your LOs will finally let you have some nice rest.

right, do post your concerns on EAT board, they should definitely help you there

and I'll be waiting for you posting you dd's routine. we'll see what can be done

oh, re shh part of shh/pat. YES it is loud and is supposed to be. althou my dd never liked shh/pat and it hasn't really worked for us, she falls asleep with a floor fan turned on which is even louder than mommy's shhhhhhh I think it just helps them relax. so keep up the good job!

Monika

[catty47]

It's all gone pear-shaped today - she could not, would not, go down for an afternoon nap and stay there!  Unfortunately I couldn't dedicate the time to staying and patting her for 20 minutes, because of #1, although we had enough quiet moments to do a good 4S because I bribed #1 with telly.  But she just wasn't up for it.

In the end it was hopeless, and I had friends over so I just brought her down.  So she was awake from about 3pm till 6.30!  And that's counting a 10 minute nap.  Before that she's been awake since 1pm.  So, not great.  She eventually fell asleep during storytime in the bouncer, where I put her after bathtime whilst we get #1 into her pyjamas etc.  Very cleanly and peacefully, and has not woken up at the 45 minute mark, but I bet we're in for trouble tonight!  If she stays asleep I think I will try and do a dreamfeed at 8, and 10.30 or 11 if my husband can wake me, and we'll see how that goes.  I just need to really try and get the wind out of her too, to try and deal with this 4.30 farting!

She had her first immunisations yesterday so maybe that's unsettled her today.

[catty47]

It's all going pretty wrong now so a couple more questions:
If Hetty wakes early from a sleep (which she's doing now) how do we proceed?  Go straight to E?  Or wait till the 3.5hr mark?  I don't think she's hungry.  She's woken after 45minutes probably and doesn't seem to be putting herself back to sleep.
Also, should I be cluster feeding at the 3.5 hr EASY?
How many feeds in a day should I be looking at, as a guide, for a 3.5 hr EASY?  That might be a way for me to think about it when I've got the two of them.
Last night was awful, with wind, with wakings and feeds; I feel pretty rough today and can barely function so I need some pretty basic questions answered!
Sorry to be so negative; this is hard work.

[*Mona*]

hi I'm so sorry it's so hard for you now.

last night- she was probably way overtired judging from what you wrote to have a peaceful night. have you tried gripe water for her wind? it does help sometimes.

to answer your questions:
if she wakes up early from her nap and doesn't seem hungry, don't feed her but wait for 3,5 hrs mark or her hunger signs if she shows them earlier. E A S A E pattern is very very common for babies her age, and I think especially with 3,5 hrs easy. so perfectly normal.

you could aim for 5 feeds a day, including clusterfeed and one more as DF, so it could look like this:
8
11:30
15
18:30
19:30 [clusterfeed, before bed]
22:30 DF

sorry, I think I forgot to ask, but do you breast feed or formula feed? if BF, how long at on feed and do you offer both breasts? and if FF, how much?

hope to :-*day is better for you

[catty47]

Hi

Thanks for the speedy reply!

Actually we're almost on target with your idea of the routine there - so far

8.05 wakes, nappy etc
8.30 E
9.45 S
11.35 wakes, nappy etc
11.50 E
1.30 sleep

so, going quite well today.  She actually did put herself to sleep again in the middle of that first sleep - result  just goes to show how long you have to leave them to give them the chance - she was grumbling for at least 5 or 10 minutes.  This, I think, is what I never gave #1 the chance to do 

If answer to your question, I'm breastfeeding.  She's a lightening quick feeder - 5 minutes is normal.  I don't feel it's a problem, but the letdown is big and she really gulps it down.  She sounds like Homer eating donuts but is very rhythmic and really gets stuck in.  She can be pretty slurpy and a guzzler, hence I think the wind and tummy ache etc.  Gets mad if I try to wind her in the middle, like taking sweeties from a child!

I do offer both.  At the moment she generally doesn't do much with the second but play and suckle a bit, although there are times when I feel the letdown reflex on that one too, but she doesn't then drink the whole boob.

Thanks for the suggested timings, that's brilliant.  I think I'll pin it on the fridge to refer to when my brain's stopped! 
Would you suggest that I try not to feed her too much in the night? 
Or if she still wants 3.5 hourly keep it up till she drops one?  ie 2.30am and 6am, which tends to be what she wants at the moment? 
In the hope that the right number of feeds etc in the day will gradually phase these out?

Sorry, my posts are always so long!  I really appreciate your help

x

[*Mona*]

oh great it's moving in the right direction!

with those feeds- my dd was a fast and efficient eater too so I'm sure she's having as much she needs. I would keep on offering both breasts- she will get hungrier with time, I guess- will need more calories when she starts moving more

and yep, it's worth to not rush in the moment they wake up- it's so important to give them time to resettle!

I would try to cut down on that 6am feeding. if she's always waking same time and then going back to sleep it sounds more like habitual waking than real hunger to me. and if you eliminate it she will be more hungry when she wakes up for the day.

ok, keep up the good work and let me know how your day is

[catty47]

I'm sorry - I'm being so lazy now and not even bothering consulting the book now!
 
Yes, we'll work on the 6am, but is that definitely right - supposing she'd had a feed at 2.30am or so, it's quite a long haul till 8ish...?  Or should I try and pull the morning forward a bit to 7 something?
 
I think half the problem is that I'm on such tenterhooks about waking her sister - our house is small - we're right next to Isla's room, and after the sleep problems we had with her we just don't want to rock the boat!  So I do tend to haul Hetty into my bed pronto the minute she wakes or starts to grumble.  Perhaps I need to know some of the strategies to put her off if it's not hunger?
 
Today went pretty well - we more or less stuck to the 3.5 hours, with a couple of hiccups.  She only did 45 minutes for her second nap, and wasn't having it when I tried to sh-pat her, but I got her down for a longer 'catnap' finishing at 5.20.  She was in bed by 7.50 so not a disastrous amount of awake time.  She did a couple of bizarre feeds where I couldn't feel the letdown which shunted one of the cycles to 3 hours, but somehow we ended up back to where it should have been.  Her 6.25pm feed was both boobs - one in storytime and one downstairs at 10 to 7 so she's good and full. 
 
She's quite a grump about settling in her cot; I can see we have not started this too early .  Bizarre when she is quite happy falling asleep in the bouncer.
 
I wish she wasn't so windy - it's definitely getting in the way of her comfort in the cot.  Those little legs keep coming up and I can hear the gurgles bubbling through her.  The night was pretty bad - woke and couldn't get her back to sleep at 12.41 - ended up feeding her.  Then woke again at 2ish, but I was able to use sh-pat.  Then again at 4.50, and I ended up feeding her.  So she's not going any long distances any more  !

Do you think it's possible she's overfeeding?  Might it be best not to cluster feed?  Last night it was at 9pm so maybe her tummy was still digesting the last feed or something, and then with the DF only 1.5 hrs later....not sure.

Sorry, lots of questions again!
x