Author Topic: Please Help - EASY 3HR at night, habitual waking? , don't know what to do....  (Read 3249 times)

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Offline QuinnVMom

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Hi,

Thank you in advance for assistance.  My son is 12 weeks and I think we have some habitual waking issues. I work full time and is on schedule the entire day. I recently changed his schedule to see I could work out the wakings and also get rid of the cluster feedings like the book suggested.  This is the schedule before - wake and feed at 6,9,12,3, cluster at 5 and 7 bed, slept till 12 (5 hours!) wake at 12, 3 and 6 for the first feed of the day.  I am feeding him at every wake (bottle feed during the day and BF at night)  So this past week I changed his schedule as I think the 12 and 3 feed are habitual.  this is what it is now
6 first feed of the day
9
12
3
6 down for the night

9:30PM feed (bottle feed -3 oz so not an entire feed)

12:30PM feed (BF but only on for a few minutes)

3:30 feed (BF but only on for a few minutes)

6 up for the day.

I was up all night crying because I don't know what I am doing wrong.  Now that I have changed is schedule he has dropped the 5 hour sleep and wakes every 3 hours, we are regressing....

He does not take a pacifier ( I either have to hold it in or he spits it out) and he is crying so bad that shhhpat does not work.  The only thing that soothes him back to sleep is BF but doesn't take a full feed or lying down with him, holding him and the pacifier in for about an hour.

So here are my questions:

Do I go back to the original schedule?

Do I try a different schedule?

Do I try the wake to sleep? and If so, do I work on both (12am and 3am) or just one at a time? 

What should happen if he does wake, should I not feed him? 

I am so frustrated and exhausted that I have gotten to the point of letting him sleep with me (which I do not want to do).

Any suggestions?

Thank you!


Offline Colin Macs Mom

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At 12 weeks he should not need to eat that often at night. He should genuinely need one feed at night, maybe two. After that routine that you were doing, he surely has a suck/eat to sleep association, and probably doesn't know how to sleep independently. He's too young yet for PU/PD, but have you tried pat/shh?
Jessica
Mom to Colin Ronald, August 18, 2005
Spirited + Reflux =  :o


Offline QuinnVMom

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Thank you for your reply.

I thought the same thing about suck/sleep association but that is the weird thing, during the day I can put him down in his crib awake and he will put him self to sleep.  It seems like he has the problem at night, do you think it is because I BF at night, should I only bottle feed.  If he wakes, what should I do to break him of that.  I have tried shh/pat but he gets so upset it wakes him up futher

Offline QuinnVMom

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One more thought, should I try wake to sleep?  Also, he has pretty bad relux, on previced (sp?) but does not eat large feeds during the day, would he be needing to eat at night to make up for that?

Offline finlays mam

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Hi there, do you think you need to review his reflux meds?  he might be in pain and more so at night....

Debbie x
Debbie

Offline QuinnVMom

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hi,

we just switched from zanyac to previcid about a week ago.  we give him the dose at night, my dh thinks by giving it at night he feels better so wants to eat more.  but when he wakes he really doesn't eat....

Offline finlays mam

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How often can you give this medication, is it once daily? a couple of things have come to my mind.. do you swaddle?  Have you tried a different paci... when i was bf my midwife suggested cherry teats ( not sure what you would call them in the US)  try different ones, you never know. is it possible he's cold at night and that's what's waking him?

Debbie x
Debbie

Offline Colin Macs Mom

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I see - reflux changes everything. Refluxers tend to want to eat often because it soothes the pain. Especially at night when laying down aggravates it. If he's still having that much trouble I think you should revisit the meds with the doc. Maybe the dosage needs adjusting or something like that.

Is he sleeping elevated? On a wedge, or do you have one end of the mattress raised?
Jessica
Mom to Colin Ronald, August 18, 2005
Spirited + Reflux =  :o


Offline QuinnVMom

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Hi,

I give him his med once a day around 6pm, we are giving him 7ml once a day.  We do have a wedge pillow on the crib mattress and the changing table is elevated.  I do swaddle him, he will not sleep in his crib without the swaddle.  I have tried several paci, he will take each one and then spits it out within a few seconds once he knows it is not food...

Offline finlays mam

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The other thing i was going to ask is do you give any bottles?

Debbie x
Debbie

Offline angelina and andrew's mum

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hang in there-it will take time. i have had the same probs with my lo, she also has reflux and would wake several times during the night-sometimes every hr. i was desperate to get some sleep!!! my lo used to go to bed at 6 also but ive recently changed it to 7.45 with no dreamfeed and shes sleeping to 1.30 or 3.30am and then thats her till 6-6.30. she doesnt eat alot during the day either(4-6oz every 3 hrs).would you consider having a slightly later bedtime to see if that works?
 i have to admit-i am no expert on this subject-weve only changed this for 2 days now but i saw a great improvement within the 1st day.  good luck :)

Offline QuinnVMom

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Hi,
I am back...
I tried several things over the past two weeks.  I started to gradually move him to a 3.5 hour EASY schedule and he slept from 7:30 to 12:00 feed and then from 1:00 to 6, 4 nights in a row!!!! Then last week we had a set back, I think a growth spurt and back to 3 hour EASY.  Now he is like clock work again eating every 3 hours.  Do you think I should try the 3.5 hours again    He is now waking up an hour to 2 hours after I put him down for the night???


E: 6:00am Feed   
A: 6:30am Activity
S: 7:30am (Nap 1 ½ to 2 hours)

E: 9:00am Feed   
A: 9:30am Activity
S: 10:30am (Nap 1 ½ to 2 hours)

E: 12:00pm Feed   
A: 12:30pm Activity
S: 1:30pm (Nap 1 ½ to 2 hours)

E: 3:00pm Feed   
A: 3:30pm Activity
S: 4:30pm Catnap for 40-50 minutes

E: 6:00pm Feed – Reflux Medicine         
A: 6:30pm Bath, into night clothes, book
S: 7:00 Bed for Night

Wakes around 8:30- 9:00 and I tried give him a paci and he wants to eat

wakes around 11:00 to 12:00 to eat

wakes 5:00 for the day!!

HELP!


Offline Colin Macs Mom

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Sounds like the 3.5 EASY worked well  :D so I would go back to that.
Jessica
Mom to Colin Ronald, August 18, 2005
Spirited + Reflux =  :o


Offline QuinnVMom

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I forgot to mention that he is only taking 1 hour naps now...... before he would take 1 1/2 to 2 hours long.  I just read Tracy sleep interview and I am a little confused.  If he wakes after an hour to i get him up for activity or do i PU/PD?

Offline Colin Macs Mom

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What does your routine look like now? I assume it's different from the one you posted before?
Jessica
Mom to Colin Ronald, August 18, 2005
Spirited + Reflux =  :o


Offline QuinnVMom

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the 3 hour is the same but now only sleep an hour to an 1 1/2.  Also, now he waking an 1 1/2 to 2 hours we put him down for the night.

E: 6:00am Feed   
A: 6:30am Activity
S: 7:30am (Nap 1 hour)
A:
E: 9:00am Feed   
A: 9:30am Activity
S: 10:30am (Nap 1 hour )
A:
E: 12:00pm Feed   
A: 12:30pm Activity
S: 1:30pm (Nap 1 hour
A
E: 3:00pm Feed   
A: 3:30pm Activity
S: 4:30pm Catnap for 40-50 minutes

E: 6:00pm Feed – Reflux Medicine         
A: 6:30pm Bath, into night clothes, book
S: 7:00 Bed for Night

Wakes around 8:30- 9:00 and I tried give him a paci and he wants to eat

wakes around 11:00 to 12:00 to eat

wakes 5:00 for the day!!

Offline Colin Macs Mom

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Have you tried dreamfeeding?
Jessica
Mom to Colin Ronald, August 18, 2005
Spirited + Reflux =  :o


Offline QuinnVMom

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I have tried dreamfeeding but he seems to wake up shortly after.  I think because of reflux or burp, because he doesn't burp when I dreamfeed.  I tried for a few days and dropped it.  Also, I am just so tried, working full time, I usually go to sleep when he does. 
I am trying something new too (started yesterday), he found his hand (doesn't take paci) so I have left one hand out of swaddle.  Also, only at night he uses me as a prop, so I am trying PU/PD, shh/Pat.
This is what happened yesterday. 
E: 6:00am Feed   
A: 6:30am Activity
S: 7:30am (Nap 1 1/2 hour)

E: 9:00am Feed   
A: 9:30am Activity
S: 10:30am (Nap 1:15)
A:
E: 12:00pm Feed   
A: 12:30pm Activity
S: 1:30pm (Nap 1 hour
A
E: 3:00pm Feed   
A: 3:30pm Activity
S: 4:30pm Catnap for 30 minutes

E: 6:00pm Feed – Reflux Medicine         
A: TOO CRANKY FOR BATH, NEED SLEEP. I have tried to give him a bath in the past like this and he gets overtired that I can't put him down
S: 6:30-7:00

WOKE AT 7:00 to EAT more, I tried to put him straight down but he wanted to nurse.  I did shh/pat, PU/PD until 8:30

woke at 2:30 to eat, full feed

woke at 4:00, FELL BACK TO SLEEP ON HIS OWN!!!

woke at 6:00 with our alarm (sleeps in the adjacent room)

I think the lack of sleep during his naps are screwing up our last feed and bedtime.  Any suggestions?  In Tracy sleep interview she discuss babies that were once good nappers that go down to 45 minutes that it may be time to switch to 3.5 EASY.  Do you think that is it

Offline Colin Macs Mom

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I think that it could be worth a try to move to a 3.5 EASY. That should help his naps and also hopefully get him to take more at each feed, which might ease his hunger at night.

I do wonder as well if he night hunger is his 3 mo, growth spurt.
Jessica
Mom to Colin Ronald, August 18, 2005
Spirited + Reflux =  :o


Offline QuinnVMom

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Thanks, I will try tomorrow the 3.5 easy.  I just talked with my babysitter and he slept 2 1 hour naps and was falling asleep during the 12:00 Feed so I told them to get him right to be and he slept for 2 hours.  I think the 3.5 easy with even him out.

Offline Colin Macs Mom

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Sounds like it - just remember that it will probably take a few days to "kick in" so to speak. Let me know!
Jessica
Mom to Colin Ronald, August 18, 2005
Spirited + Reflux =  :o


Offline QuinnVMom

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Hi,

So we have been on 3.5 EASY for a week now.  He seems to be doing much better during the day, naps have lengthened even though he stirs and sometimes wakes up around the 1 hour mark but now can fall back to sleep on his own. He has found his thumb which I am kind of ok with. He has never taken a paci, I am just afraid of this as a habit down the road.  It is the nights were we fall of the wagon.  One thing that I have noticed is that we do not have a consistent wake time.  I am not sure if he wakes at 5:00 and goes right back down do I consider this his first feed or do I wake him at 7:00 and consider that his first feed.  I am not sure if the inconsistent wake times are hurting us at night.  Here was yesterdays schedule.

E: 6:15am Feed                  
A: 7:00am Activity
S: 7:30am (Nap 1 ½ )

E: 9:30am Feed                        
A: 10:00am Activity
S: 11:00am (Nap  2 hours) (woke at the 1 hour mark and feel back to sleep within 5 minutes

E: 1:00pm Feed                        
A: 1:30pm Activity
S: 3:30pm Catnap for 40 minutes

E: 4:30pm Reflux Medicine - Feed            
A: 6:00pm Bath, into night clothes,
E: 6:30pm Breast Feed - topper
S: 7:00pm book-Bed for the night

We went to bed at 8:30pm, so tired!

E: 11:00PM
E: 3:00AM
E: 5:15AM

Today:
E: 5:30 BF
A:
S: 6:20

E: 9:30

I have tried to not feed him at the 3:00 feed but he is not having it. I have tried PU/PD and did not work.  I just don't understand why a few weeks ago he slept for 7 hours (4 days in a row) and now he is only sleeping 4.  I am starting to dread nights, what am I doing wrong!!!!

I have started BF again at night which I think could be one problem.  He eats better at night from a bottle, I am just so tired that BF is easier.  I have also fallen into the trap of BF in bed and he falls asleep with me.  I am stopping this today!!!!!  My husband is just going to have to take turns with me. 

I just don't understand why he can fall asleep during the day by himself but when it comes night time he needs me. Is he afraid of the dark? 

We are going to bed early, should I try to stay up and try a dream feed? & what time? Can I give it around 8:30 or 9:00pm?  Do I do it when he is in light or deep sleep?

I am so frustrated, I talked to ped again and he stated that because he is so big he should not need to eat at night and I should let him cry for a min of 20 minutes.  I find that when he cries he only gets more upset not tired!  I can't do the CIO method, it is cruel.

Any suggestions?  THANKS!

Offline Colin Macs Mom

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Having a consistent wake time will make a big difference for you. Consistency all around in the routine is key. Sounds like the 3.5 EASY is working, that's great.  :D  If he's waking at 5am (or close) every single day then you can try wake to sleep for that, or you can resettle until it's time to start the day.

At his age it's completely normal to have a feed at 3am-ish. I wouldn't try and stop that, he likely genuinely needs it. You already know that you need to stop taking him to bed - you don't want to get in the cycle of trading one prop for another.  ;) 

I doubt he's afraid of the dark - if he can sleep independently during the day he can do the same at night. He's not doing it because he's used to seeing you at certain times.

If you want to try a DF, it should be done between 10 and 11pm. It can take a week or so before you'd see results, so if you decide you want to give it a go keep that in mind.

And by the way, my DS is also very big for his age and I found that BECAUSE of that he needed the night feeds. They need the calories to support the growth - it makes no sense that they should not eat at night because they're big IMO. I'm glad that you're not willing to CIO even as hard as it is. You're right, it is cruel and it would only cause you more problems.

Hang in there, you're doing great and in a week you've already had huge improvement.  ;D  ;D  Just remember that it takes time to correct things, the same as it takes time to develop those habits.
Jessica
Mom to Colin Ronald, August 18, 2005
Spirited + Reflux =  :o


Offline QuinnVMom

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THANKS! comment/questions in blue
Having a consistent wake time will make a big difference for you. Consistency all around in the routine is key. Sounds like the 3.5 EASY is working, that's great.    If he's waking at 5am (or close) every single day then you can try wake to sleep for that, or you can resettle until it's time to start the day.

Question:  If he wakes at 3:00 to 5:00 should I feed him (once I know it is hunger) do I put him back down, what time should I start my day 6 or 7?  because I am trying to keep consistant during the day and even if I try to put him down around 6 ( 6, 9:30, 1: 4:30) he seem to realistically go down around 7pm.  I am getting all screwed with daycare.

If you want to try a DF, it should be done between 10 and 11pm. It can take a week or so before you'd see results, so if you decide you want to give it a go keep that in mind.  If he is waking at 11:00, should I ever bother?

And by the way, my DS is also very big for his age and I found that BECAUSE of that he needed the night feeds. They need the calories to support the growth - it makes no sense that they should not eat at night because they're big IMO. I'm glad that you're not willing to CIO even as hard as it is. You're right, it is cruel and it would only cause you more problems.  It makes sense.  I am just really worried that he is over eating.... my doctor suggested to watch out for that.....

Why do you think he keeps flip flopping between sleep times? he goes from 5 hours to 3 to 4 to 7 to 3 etc.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2006, 19:13:11 pm by QuinnVMom »

Offline Colin Macs Mom

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Quote from: QuinnVMom
Question:  If he wakes at 3:00 to 5:00 should I feed him (once I know it is hunger) do I put him back down, what time should I start my day 6 or 7?  because I am trying to keep consistant during the day and even if I try to put him down around 6 ( 6, 9:30, 1: 4:30) he seem to realistically go down around 7pm.  I am getting all screwed with daycare.

Personally I would go for 7. But if you feel 6 is more realistic then that's fine too.

Quote from: QuinnVMom
If he is waking at 11:00, should I ever bother?
Probably not ;)

Quote from: QuinnVMom
It makes sense.  I am just really worried that he is over eating.... my doctor suggested to watch out for that.....

I wouldn't worry so much about that. LOs are pretty good about eating when they're hungry and stopping when they're full. And the eating soothes the reflux so obviously that's a good thing.

Quote from: QuinnVMom
Why do you think he keeps flip flopping between sleep times? he goes from 5 hours to 3 to 4 to 7 to 3 etc.


From 0 - 3 mo. LOs work on organizing daytime sleep. From 3 - 6 mo. they work on night sleep. He's learning and figuring stuff out. He's still quite young and has a lot to learn about the world.
Jessica
Mom to Colin Ronald, August 18, 2005
Spirited + Reflux =  :o


Offline QuinnVMom

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Thanks, fingers crossed for a good night!

Offline QuinnVMom

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Hi Jessica,

I would like to thank you for all you help, support and patience with my sleep story.  I think we made some head way last night. Here is our schedule from yesterday.  I have a few questions though (in blue)

E: 6:00am Feed                        
A: 6:30am Activity
S: 7:30am ( 2 hours)

E: 9:30am Feed                        
A: 10:00am Activity
S: 11:00am (2 hours)

E: 1:00pm Feed                  
A: 1:30pm Activity
S: 3:30pm Catnap for 50 minutes ( babysitter had to wake him up)

E: 4:30pm Reflux Medicine - Feed
( 5:00PM FALLING ASLEEP BUT WOKE HIM UP)            
A: 6:00pm Bath, into night clothes,
E: BF topper
S: 6:30pm Book and Bed for the night (fell right to sleep)
(30 MINUTE SLEEP????)
E: 7:00pm 2ozs

E 11:00pm 4oz feed

4:00AM - woke up but did not feed!!!! This is huge for us, he was able to fall back to sleep, not deep sleep with my help.  Did not cry that bad because he has his thumb now.

Questions:
The babysitter usually wakes Quinn up for his catnap at the 50 minute mark, but he is having trouble staying awake until bed time and wakes 30 minutes after bed time for more food.  It is like he took another catnap and is ready to get up again.  Do I extend his catnap 30 minutes or around 5:00 do I let him take another catnap.

Is there any way to bring the 11:00 feed to about 9:00, Should I wake him at 9:00 for a feed before bed or should I DF at 9:00?  I am having trouble staying awake past 9:30 and then waking at 11:00 is hard. He is like clock work, the other night he couldn't get right back to sleep after the 30 minute catnap, I tried doing PU/PD for an extended time, he went down at 9:00 till  2:00 and woke up at 6:00.  (if he goes to bed at 8:00, sleep till 1:00 and back up at 5:00) One feed a night is so much better.  What do you think.....

Now that I know that the 4:00 am wake is not from hunger, do I attempt w2s? Do I do it an hour and 30 minutes before?  I can't believe I am thinking of setting a clock to wake up.... I am desperate to get good sleep

You mentioned that your LO used to wake up for feedings because he was big for his age, when did he not require any feedings at night?  Quinn is 16pd at the 3 month mark


Thanks for all your help.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2006, 15:28:09 pm by QuinnVMom »

Offline Colin Macs Mom

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Quote from: QuinnVMom
The babysitter usually wakes Quinn up for his catnap at the 50 minute mark, but he is having trouble staying awake until bed time and wakes 30 minutes after bed time for more food.  It is like he took another catnap and is ready to get up again.  Do I extend his catnap 30 minutes or around 5:00 do I let him take another catnap.

A catnap should be no longer than 45 minutes. Longer and it interferes with night sleep. I would consider that time for a real nap but try not to let him go longer than an hour. Then, if he needs it, try a catnap of 20 or 30 min at say 6pm. That would then push his bedtime back a bit which would hopefully push back the awake time a bit too, which you might like ;)

Quote from: QuinnVMom
Is there any way to bring the 11:00 feed to about 9:00, Should I wake him at 9:00 for a feed before bed or should I DF at 9:00?  I am having trouble staying awake past 9:30 and then waking at 11:00 is hard. He is like clock work, the other night he couldn't get right back to sleep after the 30 minute catnap, I tried doing PU/PD for an extended time, he went down at 9:00 till  2:00 and woke up at 6:00.  (if he goes to bed at 8:00, sleep till 1:00 and back up at 5:00) One feed a night is so much better.  What do you think.....

PU/PD is intended for LOs 4 mo and older, so yours is still a little young for that yet. I'd hold off
until he's 4 mo and can learn from it. But as for the feed, that's fantastic that he didn't feed at 4am - that means he went from 11pm until 6am! CONGRATULATIONS! That's huge progress :D  As for the time, that might be hard to change. If he's hungry, then you need to feed him. I'm not saying don't try, but he might not be ready yet. A DF as late as you can manage might help.

Quote from: QuinnVMom
Now that I know that the 4:00 am wake is not from hunger, do I attempt w2s? Do I do it an hour and 30 minutes before?  I can't believe I am thinking of setting a clock to wake up.... I am desperate to get good sleep

Can't hurt to try! W2S should be done about one hour before the wake time, and it will take at least 3 days to work.

Quote from: QuinnVMom
You mentioned that your LO used to wake up for feedings because he was big for his age, when did he not require any feedings at night?  Quinn is 16pd at the 3 month mark.
 

We stopped the night feed when he was 6.5 mo. He had one feed between 3 and 3:30am until then, and one night I noticed that he was eating slowly and sleepily, and didn't take much. So we started the water down method and it only took 4 days before he wasn't interested at all.  ;D 
Jessica
Mom to Colin Ronald, August 18, 2005
Spirited + Reflux =  :o


Offline QuinnVMom

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Thanks! 
 ;D

For future reference, what is the watered down method?

Amy

Offline Colin Macs Mom

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Anytime!!  ;D  :-*

Check out this sticky -
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=46907.0

Many people around here have had great success with this method once it was time to end a night feed.
Jessica
Mom to Colin Ronald, August 18, 2005
Spirited + Reflux =  :o