Author Topic: Desperate for sleep - please help  (Read 1255 times)

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Offline srar13

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Desperate for sleep - please help
« on: December 03, 2006, 02:42:51 am »
Hi everyone!
I have a 28motoddler and a 4 1/2 mo baby. My older son was a spirited baby, and not knowing better and not wanting him to cry, I ended up using lots of props. (sometimes nursing, slingwearing, singing, rocking all at the same time!) Needless to say, he took a long time to learn to sleep thru the night and still needs a lot of help to sleep, which we are slowly undoing.
With my second child, I studied the BW books, and vowed to do things better this time. Things started out very well, but within a few wks, colic set in, and I seemed to have a textbook baby in the mornings, easy to put to sleep, but by afternoon/evening, he just looked absolutely miserable and uncomfortable. At its worst, he would moan/cry from 3pm to 11pm unless (and often even if) we were constantly rocking or walking him. To get thru these times, I relied heavily on using a sling - this was the only way I could comfort my baby and care for my toddler. EASY kind of fell apart in the afternoons.
As he got older, we seemed to be doing better. By 2 1/2 mos, he was waking only 1-2 times at night, and I felt that with a bit of work, I could prob get him to sleep thru. He still needed some rocking before naps, but I've been using a gentle removal approach to decrease this gradually.
But now, things seem to be getting worse. I started going to work more regularly, and while I'm gone, he eats just enough to get by, and seems to be making up for it at night. B/c he's nursing so much during sleeptimes, I think he's developing a strong sleep/suck association; for the last few days, he's getting up every 45min, sometimes 90 if I'm lucky. He's always had short naps in the afternoons; now the morning naps are short too. He takes 4-5naps a day, has a bath & bedtime feed, is in bed by 6 or 6:30, wakes in 45min to eat again, then I dreamfeed him at 9 and 11.
I'm trying to use the post about getting a 4mo on EASY, but I'm having some problems. I'm hoping maybe someone can help.
So here are my questions:
1 - In the morning, my baby usually wakes at around 7am and then starts yawning after 30min. (I believe this is b/c my husband leaves for work at 7:30 and this is the only time they see each other). Should I put him back to sleep at 7:30 or keep him awake as the 4mo on EASY post suggests? It's usually very easy to get him back to  sleep, but after keeping him up, he's overtired and has a hard time.
2- Also, I just read about the transition from 3hr to 4hr EASY. I never really made a transition, and prob did just the opposite, increasing the frequency of daytime feeds, thinking it would decrease nighttime feeds. Did I create problems with this? Should I aim for a 4hour EASY, even though I've been on more of a 3 or even 2 1/2 hr schedule?
3- How do I approach the nightime awakenings? He always wakes with the cough like "I need to nurse" sound. But clearly he doesn't need to nurse every time. Do I do PUPD, or rock him thru the awakening like I did at 2mos (successfully). Do I pick 2 arbitrary times to feed him at night and try to get him to sleep thru the rest?

Thanks so much to anyone who might take the time to help me. My husband & I are surrounded by friends and colleagues who all "Ferberized " their kids and keep telling us to do the same. I'm not really finding any support for not crying it out except for a few friends who all used no cry approaches (but were also sleep derived for many months like I've been!) I desperately want to help my son, but want to avoid any misery or cruelty for him.
Thank you!!!
srar13
« Last Edit: December 03, 2006, 04:42:55 am by srar13 »

Offline rebecaq

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Re: Desperate for sleep - please help
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2006, 14:52:25 pm »
Hi hun, I want to send you some big big {{{HUGS}}}
and also a big fat welcome to BW!!! ;D ;D ;D

It sounds to me like accidental parenting is trying to take over, but I think it's wonderful you stopped by and are looking for help.  Many of our friends are also CIO (cry it out) fans and we have had plenty of disputes because of it. But I'm a firm believer that you should be there for your child 100% of the time and am so happy to hear that you want to do the same.  ;)

Allow to answer your questions one by one

1. Babies tend to want to sleep soon after waking in the morning because it becomes an extension of their nighttime sleep.  This can cause problems later on apart from the ones it's causing now.  I recommend that you try to keep him up for an hour of he can handle it. If not it's ok, but aim for longer than 30 mins, so to get some real A time in his system but without making him overtired. I think it's sweet he's wanting to see dad in the morning  ;D

2. The transition from 3 to 4 hour EASY totally depends on his personality. An angel baby can make the switch with no transition, where a grumpy or spirited baby would have an awful time if not eased into it.  I think maybe 3.5 EASY is the way for you to go until you get him established into a day routine rather than a night one. Once he starts eating more during the day and seems to be content with it then start inching longer towards 4 hour EASY. Have you taken the  Know Your Baby Quiz ? If not click on it ;)

3. In regards to his night vs day feedings. I think the best plan thing to do is reduce the amount of time he nurses or even maybe give him a paci at night. At 4 months he should be either sleeping through or waking once a night (in an ideal world) so try to aim for this by not nursing him unless you are absolutely positive he's hungry. A good option is to have dh go in rather than you at night. Your dh won't smell of milk and it will be easier to calm ds without using nursing as a resort.  Rocking is not a good idea, you'd be replacing one type of acciendtal parenting for another. Stick to PU/PD and a paci. Also make sure almost no lights are turned on and to not make any sort of socializing with him. This helps babies to understand that nighttime is quiet relaxing time.

If you ahve any more doubts, please don't hesitate to ask. Heck even if you just need support stop on by. This is a wonderful community and I think you will find love and support wherever you post.  :-*

Let me know how you get on  ;)

- Beca
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Offline * Paula *

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Re: Desperate for sleep - please help
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2006, 21:52:40 pm »
I just wanted to drop by and give you some {{{{{{{{{{HUGS}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Sounds like you are really going through a rough time.

Beca has given you some great advice, and you will find that you will get lots of support and encouragement from this site.

Keep us posted on how you get on with the 3.5 hour easy.

Paula x

Thomas Michael - 12 July 2005
Abigail Louise - 23 October 2007

Offline srar13

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Re: Desperate for sleep - please help
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2006, 04:37:08 am »
Beca, Paula,
Thank you both so much for your help & support. We started yesterday and things seem to be going pretty well. Yesterday morning was the worst - I felt so guilty knowing that we set our ds up for so much misery by letting him rely on props. But after several PUPD sessions, things seemed to get better. The evening bedtime required the least amount of time ever.
Overnight, he woke much less frequently than he has lately, but each time was with the hugnry sounds. So I fed him very little. (I havea crazy system of counting his swallows - if he swallows about 150-200 times, it's a full feed. I gave him 40 swallows each time he woke, then latched him off with pressure held under his chin). I managed to hold him off from a full feed until almost 4am. I'm hoping to cut down the feeds even more tonight and then maybe eliminate them tomorrow or next day.
Thanks for the advice on morning sleepiness. I never thought of it that way. I know I made this same mistake with my 1st ds.
One problem I'm noticing - as far as activity/sleep, my lo seems to be able to adjust timings, but his hunger somehow seems to hit at awkward times, like in the middle of a nap, or near the beginning of a nap, etc. The actual E times are just snacks sometimes. Will this just work itself out over time? Or should I adjust the schedule to match his timings more?
Thanks in advance!!!
Sangita
PS I wish I had found this message board with my first ds. He had a 30min sleep cycle and was so dependent on help, that he nursed back to sleep every 30 min for months. He only slept thru until 4 or 5am at around a year of age. I'm still tired from all of that!

Offline rebecaq

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Re: Desperate for sleep - please help
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2006, 12:51:54 pm »
Hi Sangita  ;D

I'm glad to hear that things went better last night! I like your counting system, when I was nursing ds I had no idea how much he was taking in because he would drain my breasts in under 5 mins! Did he need to be nursed each time he woke? Did you try to resttle with PU/PD. At nighttime when nurse to sleep is set in the deepest babies give more resistance to it. Sometimes a PU/PD session can go on for an hour. So make sure he really is hungry and not just relying on a warm breast to send hom off to sleep again.  I think if he really is hungry at 4am then feed him then but not at the prior wakings, the less times you offer the breast at night the better.

If you feel he is a snacker then that needs to be nipped at the bud, so to speak.  You did mention he gets hungry at awkward times, is the also time related. Say in 1.5 hours and the next at 3 hours? Erractic hunger and wakings can be a sign of either a growth spurt or a need to transition to a longer routine.  Personally I think that he needs the transition, more than he's going through a growth spurt.  The best thing to do it to stick to the routine as much as possible and try to get him hungry enough to take a full feed at the E time of the routine. I'm going to look up the best course of action against snackers in my BW book and post it later. I wanted to answer you first so you could get the day started with a bit of support and answers!

Speak to you soon

- Beca :-*
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Offline srar13

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Re: Desperate for sleep - please help
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2006, 02:14:44 am »
Hi Beca!
Thanks for the advice. I think you're right about not a growth spurt, b/c the snacking is ongoing. Even when I first brought ds home, and I tried to stick to E at 6,9,12,3,6, we never seemed to be able to make it the full 3 hours. DS always seemed to get hungry/sleepy in 2-2.5 hr increments. But somewhere along the way, his sleep/activity cycle seemed to stretch out to 3 hours, but he'd ask for food more frequently, so I'd give him in between snacks so he wouldn't wake up early b/c hunger. Something like E-A-1/2E-A-S-Y. But I guess this is how I encouraged him to be a snacker? Somehow, I saw my DS1 eating Bfast, midmornig milk, lunch, afternoon snack, dinner, bedtime snack; and I thought feeding DS2 just as frequently would be okay!
Thanks for the advice. I'd love to get your advice on ending snacking. I have the BW baby & toddler books but need to get the 3rd one as well.
Thanks so much
Sangita