LONG--12 mo old---still nw!! What am I missing?

[x95stocchier]

Hi-  My DS is 12 mo old, and still waking most nights.  I can count on my fingers the # of times he's slept through.  I have been bw since he was 3 mo, and have tried it all---p/s, pu/pd, pu, w2s etc.  I have been consistant, and I am just at a loss.  What am I missing here?  What am I not doing right?  Sorry this will be kind of long to explain it all. 

Some background: about a month ago I finally stopped nursing during the night (something my ped encouraged for 1 nw/night through 12 mo) I know he's not hungry when he wakes anymore.  But when I did feed, he would usually go back down easily.  Now we could be doing pd for 1-2-3 hrs to get him back to sleep.

Also, about 2 wks ago he started waking at 6 instead of 7....suddenly.  I'll explain more below.  But I have kept his AM nap the same time b/c I read earlier AM nap encourages the early wake.--though that makes for a long morning A time.

 He always goes down to sleep awake and falls asleep on his own without trouble, (both naps & night)
How old is your child? 12 mo
Routine:
6 am wake & bf
7 AM start day
8 breakfast
9:30 small snack
10 nap (30 min-1:15--but usually closer to 45--if I try to extend this 45 min AM nap, he'll usually refuse afternoon nap)
11:30 lunch
2 bf
2:30 nap (usually 1:20, though will sometimes wake at 40 min...sometimes I can get him back down for another 45, but sometimes not)
4 snack
5:45 dinner
6:15 bath, books
6:45 bf
7-7:15 bed

nw are sporadic.  He does not wake at the same time.  They can sometimes be settled in 20 min or so, but more often 1-2-3 hrs...or he'll fall asleep but wake 20 min later and we start all over again and again.

Do you bottle or breastfed?? bf
How much? or how long? 3x per day
If breastfed.. one side or both?? both
How many wakes per night? 1-3
What’s your LO like when waking at night? How long is he/she up?  gets really upset , sometimes starts to settle, then upset again....20 min -3 hrs
When you go to him/her is she fussing or crying? Or is it a mantra cry?  screaming mostly, or hysterical crying
What have you tried to settle?? p/s, pu/pd, pd, etc  on a rare occasion, he'll settle himself
What do you do for A time and how long is it?  about 3.5 hrs, though varies based on his naps.  usually we play in the house, or go for a walk in good weather, etc
Are there developmental issues such as teething or milestones?  I'm sure, there always are, but this is going on too long and too consistently to blame it on that.
Do they have a prop? If so what is it? no
Do they have a lovie?  yes

I used to often think it was teething....but for how many months ongoing? It must be more than that, besides with tylenol, he's still waking, etc.  It must be more.

About the early wake: I know he's still tired b/c he wakes up upset and will also often fall asleep nursing that first feeding.  I have been nursing him laying down for this nursing and we usually nursing/snuggle till about 7.  We've only been doing this for 2 wks, but I think this is going to create a problem, though...I can see at 3 AM him wanting the same thing now.  Anyway, I have tried pd but it is just too close to morning...he is just not taking it--I've done pu for 40 min on several occasions, and it just seemed pointless to then just get him up & feed him.  So anyway, I am thinking to just get him up at six, brighten the room and feed him making sure he stays awake.  What do you think? 

I've also tried 1 nap several times, and those times he only  napped 1:20 then was up for several hrs that night.  I don't think he's ready for that yet.

I just feel like I am doing everything "right" but he's still not sleeping.  What am I missing here?  I am really at a loss, and keep expecting we'd be beyond this by now.  I appreciate every set of eyes I can get on this one.  Thank you in advance.

Sarah

[Florencia]

Hi Sarah and welcome to Toddlerland! the fun never ends and the beginning of it is often defined by total lack of sleep!

As much as you think Daniel's not ready for 1 nap a day I'm afraid to tell you that I think the opposite. Nap refusal, short naps, early mornings and night wakings are ALL the signals to switch to one nap. Now, switching to one nap doesn't mean this nap is gonna be long at first, and i can tell you, you were lucky to get 1:20 MIN nap in your first attempts. Most sleepless moms get their first "one nap a day" as long as 30 or 40 mins.

Why is this happening? Daniel's entering into a much more mobile stage. He needs to burn off calories and is becoming more aware of his surroundings and how fun the day can be. But he's still a baby so he gets bored, cranky and tired very easily.

I'd suggest you to start trying one nap a day, given he's waking at 6 am, try first with 11 am. If he wakes cranky from that one nap, means he still needs more sleep. You can try extending the one nap and if you don't succeed, go for a super early bedtime. IDeally he should be able to hold on for 4.5 to 5 (even 5.5 if he's a spirited toddlers) hour activity given his age. I suggest you to take baby steps with this.

At his used first nap time, offer a high calorie snack to boost his energy. Keep daytime activities really low key for the first couple of weeks so he doesn't get overtired. OVertiredness is the worst thing to have when switching to one nap so you have to be really careful with this. It can throw your switching off the wall and send mixed up signals that will make the transition confusing and will make you have doubts about your decision.

Be prepared for long evenings, because the first naps you get are most likely to be short (as you've already experienced). Don't worry if this happens, body takes time to adjust to the new schedule. You have 2 options, firstly try with a catnap that has to end no later than 2 hours before bedtime. That is, if he wakes around 12:30 or 1 Pm, you may offer the catnap around 330. This catnap should not be a fight, that's why I always recommend moms to walk the kids in the stroller or car, just to grab some rest out of the lo's without tiring them with sleep training. This catnap should not last more than 30 mins to preserve a 7 PM bedtime. IF the catnap's not happening, you can try a super early bedtime, based on lo's behaviour, sometimes it can be as early as 545 or 6 PM.

To provide as much opportunities to sleep as possible helps the transition to be smooth and the lo not to be so overtired and adjust quicker.

Then for the night wakings, this ones should slow down as lo is more rested (most of them are caused by overtiredness and lack of sleep during the day). If not, then teething is a possibility (first year molars appear around 12 and 17 months). Molars along with eyeteeth cause awful pain and wacky sleep behaviour so check on your lo to see if that's the cause.

I usually recommend the Walk in/Walk out method for toddler sleep training. IT is described in the FAQ section of this board under a thread called Teaching Independent Sleep. IT will help you deal with Daniel's wakings if you've ruled out pain or overtiredness. IT will help you sleep train him without creating props or troubling "back to sleep" methods and will be effective as his toddlerhood lasts. Give it a look and let me know if you have further questions or doubts.

I hope this helps you get started. Don't hesitate to come back, we'll be here for you!

[x95stocchier]

Thanks for the reply Florencia--

Do you really think it's 1 nap?  I am just wondering because he's pretty much always had short naps, early mornings and night wakings at least off & on, kwim?  Is he just shifting problems as fast as I can react?!

[x95stocchier]

oh, and one more thing--when his nw are caused by overtiredness (ie now) should I still respond to them with wi/wo?

[Florencia]

Hi Sarah!

Sometimes short nappers increase their lenghts of their naps when transitioning to one. So i'd strongly suggest you to go for it.

Deal with night nakings with wi/wo as well, cause that'll help him get the clue of how things are gonna be.

HTH!

[Raff]

Hi,
I could have been the one wriiting Florencia's posting!
My 11-month's DS has been waking up at night since the age of 5/6 months, this concided with him starting at a nursery. Here they progressively changed his routine from two naps a day into one. I had several discussions with them as I didn't agree with the fact that a 7-month old could survive with just one nap a day, also because my DS has started to have a long nap in the morning and a shorter one in the afternoon. To cut the story short, we ended up moving him out from the nursery and starting with a childminder (this just 2 weeks ago), who is certainly more accomodating than our previous childcarers.
As in Florencia's case I really don't know if it was just developmental or if it was the fact that Tom was confused by two different routines for at least four months, in any case his naps change in length every day and he wakes up several times a night at different times. For his naps I tend to put him down 2h45min since his last wake up time as it takes him 15/20 minutes to get asleep (which he does on his own).

This is our routine:
0600-0630 WAKE UP AND BOTTLE 6 OZ
0830 BREAKFAST
Between 0900 and 0945 1ST NAP (depending on wake up time, at the moment betw. 1 hour/1 hours10min)
1100 BOTTLE (drinks about 2 oz so will stop this)
1230 LUNCH
1345/1400 2ND NAP (depending on wake up time, at the moment half an hour/45 min)
1500 or after nap light snack
1730-1815 DINNER
1900 BED + BOTTLE 5 OZ

EXTRA INFO
Do you bottle or breastfed?? bottle
How much? or how long? 4x per day (will stop morning bottle)
How many wakes per night? 3/4
What’s your LO like when waking at night? How long is he/she up?  mantra crying/talks in his sleep, sometimes gets really upset, sometimes starts to settle, then upset again, then wakes up ... wakings can be from 20 min to even 2 hrs
When you go to him/her is she fussing or crying? Or is it a mantra cry?  mantra crying or upset
What have you tried to settle?? I wait until he gets upset before going, and when I do I put my hand on his back which tends to calm him but not always. on some occasions, he'll settle himself
What do you do for A time and how long is it?  about 3 hrs, though varies based on his naps.  usually we play in the house, or go for a walk in good weather, etc, he crawls a lot and stand up on his own
Are there developmental issues such as teething or milestones?  I'm sure, there always are, but this is going on too long and too consistently to blame it on that (quoting Florencia here!)
Do they have a prop? If so what is it? no
Do they have a lovie?  yes

I need some help because this is seriously affecting the quality of my work and also.. mummy and daddy's relationship!

 

[x95stocchier]

Hey Raff-Actually, it was my lo with the similar situation, and Florencia giving the advice.  I just wanted to say that I strated doing what she explained...11 AM nap and catnap in late afternoon if necessary, and it was really working well.....then he got a stomach bug.    So we are on hold right now...napping as much as he wants, etc.  But when we followed that 1 nap schedule, he slept till at least 6 both morings (hooray!) and the first night no nws, the 2nd night nw but quickly fell back asleep on his own.  Might be worth a try for your lo....I know it sounds young for 1 nap, I thought so too...but I was amazed at how it went.  I think the high energy snack at normal AM nap time helped a lot too....I could see him starting to get tired, then after the snack he was fine with low key activities till 11.  I plan to get back on track then try 11 for a few days, then 11:15 a few days, etc till the nap is at 12 or 1 eventually.  At that point I'll serve lunch befpre nap...not sure how that will go if he's tired, kwim?  But we'll try it!  I'll let you know how things go for us one we're well and back at it.  Good luck and {HUGS}  I know how hard it is!

[Raff]

Ooops, sorry Sarah, yes, I have just realised I got confused with the names.
I am not sure if it's a good idea to go to one nap at 11 months, especially when I stopped taking tom to nursery because of this (they started switching him to one nap when he was 7 months!!)
However, yes, I would love to hear from you in a few weeks, just to know how it goes.
last night tom slept all the way through until 430 when he woke up because of his cough. Went back to sleep straight away though... I have now a childminder that follows my routine and yesterday tom slept 1hours and 10 min in the morning and a full hour in the afternoon (which for us it's really good..).
I think I will see how it goes with the childminder. If night wakings start to improve, it means that it was the nursery who caused the mess with his night sleep. If it doesn't I will certainly go down to one nap!
good luck!

[x95stocchier]

Hi Florencia-I'm back.....we are back at it (after a bout of flu, which threw everything off!) and trying the 1 nap thing again.  I was wondering, you said if a short nap, then extend or get a catnap or early bedtime.....what is considered a long enough nap?  DS did 1:45 (yeah!) yesterday, I offered a catnap, but it was a no-go, so I didn't fight it...but by late afternoon he was getting sooo tired, so we did bed @ 6, which worked out well.  Just wondering what I should be aiming for w/ the long 1 nap.
Thanks!

[Florencia]

Usually the 1 nap should be 2 hrs. I remember fighting with the dreaded 1:45 monster cause it usually doesn't provide as much rest as a 2 hr nap (i know, it is only a 15 mins difference but for my ds it was enough to be crabby in the late afternoon). I think you handled it great. Some lo's tough, only get a 1.5 hr nap in their transition so a "long" nap depends on lo's temper. If your lo is doing great with the early bedtime, keep at it. Sorry to hear he was ill... it is such a though season for toddlers!

Good luck and keep us posted!

[x95stocchier]

Thanks Florencia-

Well, it didn't work last night---went to bed @ 6 but woke at 5:15.  We did PD (sep anx since sick) for 1:30, but finally wnet back to sleep till 7:20. 

I've been wondering, when do I move the nap back to 12 or later?  when he's sleeping till 7?  On a case like today, he woke after 7, but was awake 1:30 in the early AM, prob won't work to push the nap too late, don't you think?

Also, at what point do you serve an early lunch before that nap?

One last thing (sorry for all the ??) I know some do an AM catanp then a long PM nap, instead of this long AM/noon nap and late afternoon catnap.  Do you have any idea on the logic with that?  Is there a reason one or the other might be better for certain los, or certain situations?

Thanks again Florencia!  I appreciate your help so much!

[Florencia]

Well, it didn't work last night---went to bed @ 6 but woke at 5:15.  We did PD (sep anx since sick) for 1:30, but finally wnet back to sleep till 7:20. 

Well, I wouldn't say it didn't work last night. You got a 11:15 hrs sleep stretch which is a good one! Many moms around here would give their pinky toe for that long stretch. When he woke at 5:15, was he upset, crying or did he seem ready to start his day? perhaps he was fully awake and that's why it took your PD so long to finally get him to sleep again and for a very short period (im thinking that perhaps he went back to sleep due to being bored rather than being tired).

I've been wondering, when do I move the nap back to 12 or later?  when he's sleeping till 7?  On a case like today, he woke after 7, but was awake 1:30 in the early AM, prob won't work to push the nap too late, don't you think?

Also, at what point do you serve an early lunch before that nap?

You start moving the nap towards 12 when you notice he doesn't have problems with longer awake times, when you don't have to deal with an overtired baby and he seems happy to stay awake for longer periods. You start pushing in 15 mins increments every other day and stop pushing when you notice the nap is broken (he might sleep little due to overtiredness) or it gets harder to put him down. You have to stop and reevaluate and see how he reacts to different awake times. So instead of going by the clock, watch his cues and behaviour, like today he slept till 720 but as you say, he was awake 1.5 hrs before it, so I'd still try for a 11 am nap, basing on his attitude during the day (is he clingy, whiny?, is he happy as a clam? if so, it's a good chance to try 1130 for example and then ask if he wants to have a nap, he might fuss and cry (he might be tired) he might go happily with you... I don't personally know him so it's hard for me to say anything in advanced. That decision is yours based on how well you know him and his cues.

Lunch before nap, again is based on how his day went, how much breakfast he had, how active he was (he ran or climbed on the furniture or you were out and he was just sit in the car?), the quality of the snacks. Lunch before nap is used when you don't want him waking from hunger. IF he has a high calorie snack and doesn't seem hungry 30 mins before going down, then you can try a later lunch, again you're gonna have to trust your insctinct here.

One last thing (sorry for all the ??) I know some do an AM catanp then a long PM nap, instead of this long AM/noon nap and late afternoon catnap.  Do you have any idea on the logic with that?  Is there a reason one or the other might be better for certain los, or certain situations?

Well, the only reason is doing what's easier on lo's and moms. Some los will go down easier at morning while others love that time of the day to be their "active" period. Some others get their second wing at the early afternoon so in a million years wouldn't go down for a catnap then. The thing is to offer sleep opportunities based on your lo's temper and likes, and make those sleep opportunities relaxed enough so they don't become a battle and make lo associate sleep with punhisment and fights with mom. The idea is to avoid overtiredness so catnaps should happen when lo needs a "charge of batteries" and this might happen at different times of the day.

HTH and keep us posted!

[x95stocchier]

okay, now I'm really confused.....

I know 11 hrs is considered a good night, but I thought the early bedtime was to make up for short nap?  So 11 hrs at night and 1:20 in day....is 12:20 really enough sleep for 12 mo old?

Also, I thought I was going to 1 nap b/c of early wakes, but looks like till he starts taking a longer 1 nap, he'll still be bedding early and waking early...is that right?

Thanks again Florencia!

[Florencia]

The early bedtime is to avoid overtiredness. Rather than a set time or lenght for sleep what we're looking for when making the transition is to offer as many opportunities of sleep as possible so lo can catch up and not be cranky and sleepless. 12:20 hrs in a 24 hr period is not great but it is also not bad considering that many lo's get as much as 11 on a great day when transitioning. Of course he might need more sleep (sp. if he acts tired, you have to let his temper lead you).

On the same matter, as I explained before, usually if a baby is tired, an early bedtime will help him compensate and have a solid period of sleep. If he wakes early but past the 10.5 hr mark and is happy, then he has the sleep he needed. Eventually his body will adjust to the 1 nap a day and perhaps bedtime can be moved later in the day so he will wake later in the morning. It's not a matemathical rule, every child is different. I remember reading in Baby Whisperer Solves All your problems that Tracy was talking to a mom who had constant 5 am wakings and was desperated. Then Tracy asked further and the baby was having solid 11 hr. night periods so her advice was, go to bed early yourself! it looks like you have an early bird in your hands! Early morning should be very well caused by him adjusting to a new schedule, unfortunately there's no much you can do to "fix" them if he's sleeping through. Only time and a consistent schedule will help you there-.

Hang in there, it gets better!

[x95stocchier]

thanks again florencia!