too long between feedings?

[aradams]

i'm not sure if this is a feeding issue or a sleep issue.  i know according to tracy that my haden should be on a 3 hour schedule, however he seems to have put himself on a very predictable 4 hour routine.  he is always showing signs of hunger at exactly 4 hours, beginning at 7 a.m.  his bed time is 8:00 and he has a dream feed at 11:00.  he eats approx 5 ounces at every meal (occasionally 6 oz), with the exception of the dream feed, which he eats anywhere from 3-4 oz.  he then wakes up between 3:00 and 4:00 a.m. and again at 6:30-7:00 a.m. like clockwork.  i am going back to work in a couple of weeks and my husband and i are exhausted.  haden is at a very healthy weight of over 13 pounds.  he is difficult to get to nap during the day, and he has been very easy to get to sleep at night, often putting himself to sleep in his crib, however for the past week, it has taken an hour or more to get him to sleep at night.  he is getting plenty of total calories during the day, but we are wondering if he is eating frequently enough during the day.  i am also afraid to change his schedule too drastically since we will not have much time to settle into a new routine before i begin work again.  i need help!

[angelina and andrew's mum]

can u post us ur routine and we can have a look at that first.

[aradams]

thank you very much for guiding me along!  our routine goes something like this:
e:  7:00 a.m. (4-5 oz)
a:  7:30-8:30 (begin winding down)
s:  9:00 (ish)-11:00 a.m.

e:  11:00 a.m. (5 oz)
a:  11:30-12:30
s:  1:00-3:00

e:  3:00 p.m (5 oz)
a:  3:30-4:30 p.m.
s:  5;00-6:00

e:  7:00 p.m (5oz)
a:  8:30 p.m. bathtime
s:  9:00

e:  10:30 or 11;00 (3-5 oz-  however much he will eat)
he then usually wakes up around 3:00 or 4:00 a.m. and again anytime between 6:30 or 7:00 a.m.

i should clarify that the above schedule is what i TRY to implement.  he has been on a routine since day one because i believe in the concept and both my husband and i really work better in a routine as well.  his eating times are always on schedule, give or take 15 minutes, depending on the day.  he will also occasionally eat 6 oz.  nap times are a totally different story.   sometimes trying to get him to take a nap takes all the way into the time for the next feeding and he will sometimes miss a morning nap altogether, which might not be such a problem if he napped better throughout the day. he used to easily put himself to sleep after his bath, but for the past week, it has really been a struggle, yet nothing in this nighttime routine has changed.  he is very active and often seems to "fight" sleep, but i know this may just be a sign of being overtired or overstimulated.  i think he falls in between a spirited and a touchy baby.  but i call him my angel baby
thank you so much for helping us with this.  i'm terrified of starting bad habits and accidental parenting, and i really appreciate any input.

[angelina and andrew's mum]

ur doing a great job so dont worry.xx what age is haden? having a look, haden mite be overtired. have u tried cutting his A time back. he mite not seem tired but youd be surprised when u put them down for a nap.aim for an awake time of 1 1/2hrs. so if he's up at 7am you would put haden down for a nap at 8.30. would you also consider changing haden's bedtime to a little earlier like decreasing it by say half hour every few nights? depending on hadens age it is still common for lo's to get up for a feed in the night-does he eat much when he has the night wakings and how easy is it for him to go back to sleep?

[aradams]

thank you so much for the encouragement!  haden will be 11 wks tomorrow.  he has had a really good day today and has napped right on schedule and has basically put himself to sleep in his crib after a little winding-down time.  we are moving his bath time to 7:30 tonight and betime to 8:00.  is that still too late?  should we move it up further?  when he wakes at night, he will eat anywhere from 3-4 oz, and he is usually very easy to put back to sleep, with a few exceptions here and there.  i've wondered if it may be habitual because it's at almost the same time every night.  any thoughts?  i may be expecting too much from him to go for longer periods at night, aren't i?  we also have the added problem of reflux and his md has recommended he stay elevated for 20 minutes after eating, which represents a little challenge in the middle of night.  we usually just hold him for the 20 minutes because we don't want to elevate one end of the crib.  do you have any other suggestions.  it hasn't seemed to have created a problem, because he doesn't need to be held to fall asleep.  could it become a problem in the future?  i'm also really worried about how to keep him on his easy routine with his babysitter after i return to work. i'm just full of questions today, arent i?  thank you for your help!

[* Paula *]

It definitely looks like you lo could be overtired, hence you are finding it difficult to settle him down for naps.  I would definitely suggest trying your lo on the 3 hour easy and see how he goes.  1 1/2 A time is really long enough for your lo at this age.

I would also suggest to putting your lo to bed closer to 7:00 / 7:30 if possible, as from 7am - 9pm can be very long for a lo, even though he does nap during the day. 

I don't have much info on reflux and what you can do about keeping your lo elevated, but you could pop over to our Colic / Reflux boards, and the lovely ladies there will defintiely be able to give you some great advice.

When you do go gack to work it could be difficlut getting your baby sitter to know your routine, my suggestion would be to get them to spend a few days with you before you go back to work, so that they can get to know your routine, and can watch your lo's cues, so that they know exactly what you are talking about.  I would also write your routine out on a piece of paper, with times etc on it to ensure that the baby sitter follows it to the T.

Hope this helps

[aradams]

thank you very much for the advice.  we'll give it a try and let you know how it goes.  it's so nice to have support during this wonderful, but often confusing time!

[aradams]

we had the best day yesterday and i really learned a lot.  i think i had gotten away from really watching his cues, but he napped like a dream yesterday when i payed close attention to what he was telling me.  i learned a really valuable lesson, though- if you don't stick to their routine, bad things happen!  for example, because of the improved nap schedule, he was due to lie down about the same time my husband got home from work.  he wanted to play with him and kept him awake, even though the baby was clearly showing signs of fatigue.  by bedtime, even though it was 30 minutes earlier, the baby was exhausted and we had a hard time getting him to wind down.  lesson learned!
this is how our feeding went last night:
3:00 p.m.-  6 oz
5:00 p.m.- 2 oz
7:00 p.m.- 5 oz
10:15 p.m.- 4 oz

he slept until 6:15 this morning!  it was amazing!  but here are my questions-  is it okay to cluster feed him like that at 11 wks?  if so, did i cluster feed correctly?  and my husband is concerned that 10:15 p.m. to 6;15 a.m. is too long to go w/o eating, however at last check, our lo was over 13 lbs and gaining!  any thoughts?  thank you!

[angelina and andrew's mum]

that is such good news-well done to u and ur lo. if that cluster feeding works great for u then i'd say stick to it.no, thats good that lo is sleeping from 10.15 -6.15.if he was hungry then hed wake up and soon let u know. because hes being cluster fed then he's tanking up on food for his long sleep-im so happy.- i hope all goes well tonite to-keep us posted.xxx

[aradams]

thanks so much!  we'll let you know how it goes!   

[* Paula *]

That is fantastic news.  I agree, that if your lo was hungry then he would wake in the middle of the night for a feed.

Do what works for you.

Keep us posted on howyou get on.

[angelina and andrew's mum]

hey, how's things going?

[aradams]

thanks so much for checking on us.  we had a bit of a set back because he just had his first cold.    he's still congested, but feeling better i think.  so with all the sinus problems, coughing, and sneezing, he hasn't slept very well, but i think in general the new schedule of moving the bath and bedtime up is really working.  i'm also getting nervous about the holidays.  we have a large party on christmas eve at my parents home and then will spend a few days and travel to my husband's parents, so i'm worried about keeping him on his e.a.s.y routine with all of the noise and general commotion. 
i also have another question about the easy routine.  we had that really great night with cluster feeding, but since then, he hasn't been eating well at all and has been eating less and less at the dream feed, even when i did it without cluster feeding.  so of course, that means he's waking up hungry because he's not getting enough before bedtime.  i think i remember from the books that tracy said to concentrate on the dream feed if cluster feeding was causing them to eat less.  have you found this to be true and what's the best way to make sure he gets plenty of food before bedtime?  we're doing much better with our routine during the day, but are still having difficulty working out the "kinks" at night.    we've been working on establishing a good e.a.s.y routine for over 11 wks now (since birth) so it just goes to show that all those moms out there that are trying to implement it for the first time just have to remember that perseverence and patience are the key!     thanks again for all the support!  you all have been life savers for us. 

[angelina and andrew's mum]

aaww, the wee soul. u just get over one hurdle and another comes up!! i know its hard with christmas coming up and all the festivities-just keep ur eye on ur sons cues-if its too much give him time out in a quiet place, just u and him.
i had problems with the dream feed and ended up cutting it out(i didnt cluster feed at the time and dd would hardly take any df and would still wake up several times, so i cut the dream feed and started cluster feeding-but im still up once in the night(every hour since she got her last set of jags!!) but have u considered giving less at the cluster feeds. for example giving the 3pm, then  at 6pm then the dream feed? or keeping all the cluster feeds u mentioned earlier but cutting back the oz's at the 7pm? what do u think?

[*Mona*]

hi

first of all hugs and be sure you're doing a great job

but one question- when did he recover from this cold? after a sickness babies can have a few days [up to weeks maybe?] when they usually feed much worse compared to before their sickness. so maybe you could wait a bit and see if he gets back on track?

or if you think it's cluster/dream feed issue, I'd first try cutting the cluster feeds down and carrying on with DF a bit. he may start taking more for DF then.

keep us posted how you're getting on.
Monika