Nap trouble, 10 mos

[UNCMomma]

I've been trying to wait this little problemo out but it seems it's becoming more of a pattern than a problem so here ya go...

My 10 month old is going through this nap difficulty stage and I think the problem with it lies in
1. A time lengths
2. her feeling the need to talk/play/practice developmental stuff in her bed before going to sleep, no matter how tired she is and
3. getting a little overtired b/c of 1 & 2

She currently (and for a long time has) does very well with 2.5 hours A time after morning wake up, 3 hours between naps 1 & 2, and 2.5 hours before bedtime.  But since she is taking a while to go to sleep, these times are being stretched.  And I think she is getting overtired from this, plus there aren't enough hours in the day to support this schedule of sleep.  For example, if she takes a good long nap in the AM, it takes forever for her to fall asleep in the PM and then it has to be an ultra-short nap for her to be up by 4:30 which allows a 7:00 PM bedtime, the latest her little body can seemingly handle without having night-time difficulties.  And that ultra-short PM nap seems to screw with night time sleep in itself.  See what I mean?

SOOOOO, my question is do I purposely shorten the AM nap to ensure a better PM one (dunno if this would work, didn't a couple months ago but that was then) therefore helping night time sleep stay in place?  Or do I lengthen A times?  But if I do this we just seem to run out of time.  Like here was our dilemma today, just an example...

7:45 wakeup (this was b/c she talked from 4:30-5:30 this AM, ugh-if she doesn't do this we have a wake up more around 6:30)
Nap #1 (in bed 10:15, asleep by 10:45) woke her at 12, so 1 hour 15 min nap
Nap #2 (in bed 2:30 working on the assumption that she needed to play a little but it backfired...asleep by 3:45) will wake her at 4:30, so 45 min nap
Bedtime 7, will probably wind down on her own til 7:15-7:30

BLECH!  I'm thinking we def need to start our day earlier BUT I know from experience, on these days that she has had a night time wakeful period and DOESN'T get to sleep late, she gets overtired even before her 1st nap and we have a rough day.  The days DO seem to go better with a 6:30 wake up but we still usually have the problem of a longer AM nap and then trouble in the afternoon, pushing that nap too late and it's too short to prevent overtiredness through the night.

Am I making sense?

This is not a horrific problem by any means, just a little annoying.  We aren't having terrible trouble with night wakings, just every so often and they are usually short... I can just see this developing and I think it's going to take intervention to solve it rather than just time. 

Thanks for any ideas! 

[*Natasha*]

Sounds like my DD at that age. I though she might be ready for 1 nap but found she wasn't able to handle a longer awake time than 3hrs before AM nap.
If you are finding that she needs a long PM nap then i would limit the AM nap to 45mins 3hrs after wake up then 3-3.5hrs after she wakes from her AM nap try for a PM nap. If she is taking a while to fall asleep at naps then she needs a longer awake time. So aim for:

6.30am - Wake
9.30am - Nap 45mins
2pm - Nap 1.5hrs
7pm - Bedtime.

[KathrynK]

What Natasha said!
my los is a little older than yours but we have been having similar issues with naps for the last few weeks. I have done exactly what Natasha advises you to do and it is working great now. Our schedule usually looks like this:
6.30am wake
9.30am nap
10.15am wake
2pm nap
3.30pm wake
7pm bed
(In fact having just typed that I've realised it is exactly the schedule Natasha wrote for you to try, guess I must be doing something right.. )
Anyway at 10 months she should be able to have up to 3 hrs A time before that first nap so I would start with extending that gently and cutting back on that first nap.
let us know how you go
kathryn

[UNCMomma]

SOunds great, we can try that!  Thanks for the ideas...  I'll let you know how it goes! 

[babyre33]

I was reading this hoping it would be similar to my dds problems.  She's 7.5 mo.  She has some developmental issues with just beginning to crawl, and maybe teething.  We've had some issues with naps lately, and now night wakings with the same activity.

Let me explain what just happened at nap time (as I realize it is exactly what happened at 1am this morning.  I couldn't see what she was doing in the dark at night, but I saw the resemblance right now at nap time)

She goes down beautifully (retraining with PU/PD)

She'll sleep for 35 min (on her back) or 40 min (on tummy).  when she woke, I rushed to pat her and see if she'd go back to sleep.  She'd put her head down and begin closing her eyes.  She'd sleep for 4 minutes and wake up.  I'd get put my hand on her and again, 4 min.  Then she'd just lay there with her head to she side with eyes open, then look at me and make noises.  Not wanting to go back to sleep.

She had been overtired, and I was able to limit A time and give a longer winddown to get better naps for a few days, but that stopped working.  She still shows signs of being tired after 2 hrs, 2.5, 3.0 hrs respectively between naps.  Bedtime is at 6-6:30.

You two seem to know what you're doing with naps.  Any thoughts?

[UNCMomma]

Here's today...

7:30 wake up (no night wakings)
10:30-11:00 (woke her) nap #1
2:15-4:30 (woke her) nap #2
In bed at 7, asleep at 7:35 (after a little fussing)

The only thing I would have done differently is to wake her at 4:15 b/c I think she was not tired enough at 7, then got wound up playing in her crib and had to wind herself back down before sleep. 

One more question... she seems to be so 'used to' playing in her crib before sleep, so I am still putting her down a little before I expect she is totally tired (in crib at 10:15, asleep 10:30... in crib at 2:05, asleep 2:15) so she won't get overtired by playing.  Right or wrong?  Should I wait the A time out a little longer or go as I am? 

Babyre33, I saw your separate thread, I hope you get some answers!  Can't give you much except like you've realized, I bet your being in there trying to pat her back to sleep is just too stimulating for her at her age now, and it's preventing her from being able to go back to sleep if she possibly can.  Give her a few minutes to resettle on her own, unless of course she's crying that "I need you momma" cry!  Good luck to you...

[babyre33]

She can go to sleep just fine without me.  It's just the short naps (which are all naps by now) where I can't get her to calm down.  I guess I don't leave her very long.  DUring the daytime with your schedule, 10,15 minutes seems a lot longer than it does in the middle of the night.  Maybe I'll just let her alone for a while longer.

I was getting in her way of going to sleep.  I tried leaving her alone, but I'd peek at her where she couldn't see me.  She did alright, but moves all around her bed.  It looked as though she was completely perpendicular to the length of the crib which would mean that her poor neck would be all kinked.  She was crying anyway, so I got up to move her a bit...and wouldn't you know it, in the time I went from sitting to standing to help her she laid down and calmed (and she wasn't in an uncomfortable position ) So I ended up totally disrupting her progress.  I was trying to prevent cio by letting her know I was there.  But I decided to leave after telling her to go to sleep.  The little stinker was asleep in 30 seconds!

I learned my lesson.

We'll see how the night wakings go if there are any.

Let me know how yours goes!  Crossing my fingers for you!

[KathrynK]

babyre33:

I think you're kind of answering your own questions now, and UNCmomma is right about your presence stimulating her now when she should be settling herself to sleep. There is a BIG difference between mantra crying and CIO and if you are zooming straight in as soon as you hear her cry then perhaps you are not giving yourself a chance to be work out whether it is only a mantra cry. Remember Tracy's acronym SLOW- Stop, Listen, Observe to work out What's Up. You need to let her cry a little bit so you can understand the type of cry and work out whether you need to take any action. It sounds like she can settle herself just fine and you need to be confident that you can leave her to do so. I used to be terrible for going in and checking on dd during all naps, and at night, but as she got older it started to disturb her with me going in and out, and I decided it wasn't fair on her just for my peace of mind! So I just let her sleep.
I would suggest you carry on letting her alone for a little while, just as you said above, and let us know how you get on. Have confidence! xxxx

UNCmomma:

not sure about her being used to playing in her crib before she goes to sleep... Does she have toys in there? I had to take all of dd's toys out a couple of months ago as she would play with them for ages and get totally wired and then not be able to sleep. I know that if I put her down in her "window" she will go off within a couple of minutes. If I am 10 minutes too early or too late it will take her up to 15 minutes to go off. Am talking about nap times here.
For bedtime, if she only woke up at 7.30am then the way the naps work out it is likely that she won't be tired enough at 7pm. Was that later wake up time because she had an early waking again? We are having similar early morning wakings at the moment some days. I don't let dd sleep more than about 20 minutes past her usual wake up time or I find it throws the whole day off. Your nap routine looks good though. How did she cope with the 3hr A time before first nap? Hopefully you will find with less daytime sleep that after a week or so the early morning disruptions will mostly vanish.
kathryn xxx

[UNCMomma]

No toys in the crib, just a lovie and a couple paci's... I can't wait til that 'window' gets a little larger, I remember the same happening with my 1st DD.  Takes a while though... 

No, the 7:30 wake up yesterday was on its own, no early wakings.  And again today it was 7:15, no early wakings.  Actually I heard her make a peep at 4:30 but that was it... I think you're right though, wake up needs to be between 7 and 7:15 for the day to go okay.  She did alright with her 3 hours of awake time, but mind you some of it was "winding down" in her crib.  Here's today so far, about the same as yesterday...

7:15 Wake up (on her own)
Nap #1 40 min, (10:25-11:05), 10:05 in crib, 10:25 asleep (woke her from this nap)
Nap #2 in progress (2:00- ?), 1:50 in crib, 2:00 asleep

I think I will wake her at 4:15 if not awake by then to preserve that 7:00 bedtime.  We'll see how it goes! 

Thanks again for the help...
 

Babyre33, I agree with what Kathryn said about the figuring out the cry, it's crucial to letting her learn to resettle.  It's awesome that she can get to sleep on her own and if you leave her for a bit, it's not letting her cry it out but letting her get BACK to sleep on her own too.  She'll figure it out quickly, and will sleep better/longer in the process.  GOOD LUCK!!! 

[babyre33]

After last night I decided to leave her alone!!!  She awoke at 5:10 this morning, talking and babbling as usual.  She complained a bit, but after 20 min she went back to sleep for another hr.

At naps I did the same thing, but not as successful.  She'd wake with a jolt at 35 min (overtired I'm sure) then I wouldn't hear anything for a while.  I think she was drifting in and out of sleep during this time.  But after a bit she'd cry where I knew she wasn't going back to sleep.

I can tell the difference between her cries most of the time.  I have permenant footprints in the carpet outside her door where I"m always asking, "do I go in yet?".  I'm always afraid of going in too early and disturbing her, or too long and making her suffer.  Someone had asked me if I was letting her cio on another board, and it made me paranoid.  I never use to be so intrusive.  I felt guilty.

[babyre33]

oh yeah, today there was a total of 14 hrs of sleep .  so we'll see how tonight and tomorrow go.

[KathrynK]

babyre33:

I have permenant footprints in the carpet outside her door where I"m always asking, "do I go in yet?".  I'm always afraid of going in too early and disturbing her, or too long and making her suffer.

Your are completely normal! I can't tell you the number of times I have stood outside dd's door listening for what seems like hours. DH used to think I was bonkers.

Someone had asked me if I was letting her cio on another board, and it made me paranoid.  I never use to be so intrusive.  I felt guilty.

We are all paranoid and guilty at times about whether we are parenting in the right way. Don't let one comment from one person make you change the way you do things for your dd if you know you are right. It sounds from last night that you know she can settle herself well if you leave her and you did great.

She'd wake with a jolt at 35 min (overtired I'm sure) then I wouldn't hear anything for a while.  I think she was drifting in and out of sleep during this time.  But after a bit she'd cry where I knew she wasn't going back to sleep.

I read a post from Natasha yesterday where she said that the second 40 minutes of sleep tends not to be as deep as the first. This is probably why you thought she was drifting in and out of sleep. Sometimes dd has a dream and sounds like she is making talky noises but she is actually still asleep. Once her overtiredness has gone I am sure she will start to sleep a little more soundly. Sounds like you are doing just fine 

UNC momma:
Oh for a 7.30 wake up- you lucky lady 
Seriously though sounds like you are getting back on track too, hurrah! 

[babyre33]

Thank You!!!!!

I need the encouragement.  She did the same this morning.  She woke at 5:30 this time, and babbled, slept, made noises until 6:50!!!!  An improvement.

How will I know when she's NOT over tired anymore?  I"d hate to start having early wakings because she's getting enough sleep, and start a whole new scheduling problem

[KathrynK]

some of our classic overtired signs are
waking crying from each nap (and I mean proper crying)
being grumpy during A time
waking 1 hour after going to bed at night and crying

re early wakings- most of the posts for these seem to be around the 10 month mark so don't worry about that for the moment and just concentrate on naps and nightime sleep. There is a FAQ in the General Sleep section listing normal amounts of day and nightime sleep by age so you might want to have a look at that to put your mind at rest. Bear in mind that all lo's are different- my dd has always needed more sleep than the average and is about 1 month behind her age for sleep amounts.

[UNCMomma]

YAY, so glad things are going well for you Babyre33!  She is learning and going back to sleep unassisted after 5 is a miracle in itself!  Good job baby and mommy!  You're doing great, don't worry about causing her distress, from your posts I can tell that you are IN THERE when she needs you, and you're no where close to CIO.  Hope things continue to go well! 

Yes, Kathryn, I think we're def showing some progress.  Here is our day yesterday after I posted...
that Nap #2 I woke her at 4:15 and she went down at 7 PM NO PROBLEM.  HOWEVER, at 1:30 AM she began talking and playing like it was 6:30.  I let her be til 2:30  when I gave her a tiny 2 oz bottle and she went back to sleep, had to wake her at 7:30.  WHASSUP WITH THAT?!?!?  It seemed like the 'perfect' day yesterday schedule-wise and I completely expected an uneventful night.  Any guesses?  Random night ya think?  I sure hope so, that's just no fun.  I mean, she could be crying and it could be worse but even playing for an hour in the wee hours is not the best.   

Here's today...
7:30 Woke her up (I figured she was tired from her early AM playtime)
10:15 Put down for nap #1, asleep 10:45-11:15 (woke her) so 30 min nap
2:00 Put down for nap #2, asleep BY 2:15-4:30 (woke her) so 2 hour 15 min nap
7 PM bedtime, asleep without a peep

We'll see how the night goes... I'm still struggling with that first A time.  She starts to show signs of being tired at about 2 1/2 hours and esp after the events of last night I thougth she'd be ready for that first nap.  In fact, when I put her in the crib she was ALMOST asleep (which never happens) but then she talked/played for 30 min before falling asleep.  Did I wait too long or not long enough??  I'm trying SOOO hard to prevent overtiredness from cutting that first nap so short every day, I guess I'm a little paranoid about that.

Many thanks!