Please! - need help with early riser and naps

[Zaiby]

so after 3 days of 2 naps (about 2.5 hrs total), this is what happened:
First couple of days, he still woke up at 5/5:30, but yesterday he woke crying at 12:30 and settled down within 10 minutes and then at 5...I figured ok, he's waking up early again..so I thought maybe I could get him down again with a sippy of milk, but when DH came back up with the milk, he had gotten quiet again, so we left him...now I don't know if he fell asleep again because he was sooooo quiet...I think he did, and didn't hear him again till 6:55!

He went to bed at 7:30 last night, and fell asleep around 7:50  - so that's like almost 11 hrs!
What would you do today in terms of naps?  he confuses me when he does this lol - even though that's what I hope for - a 7 am wake up...

Z

[Zaiby]

ok - so I tried to put him down at 9:10 - wouldn't sleep - got him out, played 10 minutes - tried again - no luck - it's now 9:45 and we're back out of the crib - should I try again at 10 - or just go for one nap today?  Because at this point I don't think I can fit 2 good naps in - maybe short am long pm, but even that might be a stretch since he can go long A times on short naps....
Sigh...

Z

[debo620]

Zaiby, what I did the other day with that 7am wake was: nap in stroller 10:30-11, 2nd nap 1:30-3pm

Noah was up at 4:30am talking and chatting away,didn't go back to sleep although I tried milk at 5:30, finally got him out of his crib at 6:30. I tried to give him a nap at 7:45am and was just going to let him sleep 30min so that I could fit in another 30min nap from 10:30-11 and then long nap at 1:30. Its now 8:15 and no interest in napping yet-----I figure he'll tell me when he's ready since the day is a bust anyhow.

[Zaiby]

yeah - I tried again at 10 and no way - he started crying as I put him in his crib and yelling which he normally doesn't do at all and when he is like this - I know it will be tough ..so we went for a short ride to keep him rested, then we just finished lunch and it's 11:30...so I'm going to put him down now..

Ok - he's asleep at 11:37..
I just hope he sleeps 2.5 hrs (should I let him go longer - yeah right wishfull thinking)- then I think I can still make it to 6:45 bedtime..

[Zaiby]

my concern is that he'll wake up before 2.5 hrs...

[debo620]

ok what is the best way to avoid overtiredness at bedtime tonight?
Noah was up at 4:30am,
slept 8:30-9:30
will probably go down at 1:30 and sleep 1hr.
.....so even if with two 1hr naps, I think he will overtired tonight because it will have already been a 13hr day by like 5:30pm.
hopefully he sleeps 1:30-2:30 at least or 3pm if possible
then go for walk to keep rested and bed at 6:30pm or 6:45pm??
I just can't win...

[Zaiby]

he slept 2hrs..not bad, but he was up at 1:35...
So given 4.5 A hrs would mean 6 bedtime?  We'll be back to early wakings and 2 naps tomorrow....I think...

[debo620]

thanks Stacy, I just laid Noah down after 4hr up, 1:30pm,wasn't showing any sleepy signs----but I thought  that was probably better then risking overtired, right? He cried as soon as I left and now he is just playing....not so sure he is interested in sleeping. so 1hr nap to much this am? even though he was up at 4:30am?  this is crazy....how long should I leave him, now he is starting to complain...

[debo620]

well, he went to sleep at 1:40 and woke after 30min crying.  maybe he really wasn't ready. now I'll have to try 4pm catnap. I think tommorow if he wakes at 4:30---I'll do like a 30min nap 7:30-8 and 10:30-11----hopefully better afternoon nap that way. 

[debo620]

so how do I correct this?, was there a better way to deal with this early wake? I just don't understand how he could be overtired before that 2nd nap----he wasn't fussy or anything. just normal self.
He just won't go back to sleep and pd just doesn't work anymore, what now? catnap for 15min somewhere around 4pm and then to bed earlier?  I feel like things are getting worse and worse....

[debo620]

yes I agree Noah is overtired right now---he is tempermental with laughing one minute and crying the next.
I haven't really intentionally started anything, haven't woken him once from an am nap---more he just wakes on his own---I think mostly to do with length of activity time but also developmental things like learning how to crawl properly, pulling up and cruising within about a 2 week time frame.
This whole early waking thing started with the time change, with him waking at 5am instead of 6, it got better some nights with 5:45am etc but not consistently, I also think it had to do with his routine
basically I have noticed the following:
1. the first A time needs to be about 3hr 20min and asleep by 3hr 30min mark to ensure a decent nap longer then 40min, if this nap is longer then 40min--then next A time is like 3hr 50min and asleep by 4hr mark, sometimes longer as he plays for a bit, what ends up happening is that by the end of the day---if he has taken these 2 decent naps, his A time is like 3hrs---which isn't really enough and he goes to bed fine but wakes at 5 the next day

the times that he has a longer A time before bed...like awake at 3pm, as long as it was a decent nap,he sleeps longer at night.

so basically I feel that he would do the best on a 40min am nap, a shorter 2nd A time, and longer pm nap--like 1.5hrs, now how to get there....

yesterday woke at 6 after 11hrs night sleep
nap 9:15 (only 3hrs 15min awake) fell asleep easily---woke happy at 40min, I thought this was great, this will bring the next nap forward
tried for next nap at 1:30pm but alas he only slept another 40min---undertired or overtired? which brought us to 2:15pm 
... and then of course because he didn't have a good afternoon nap---he was up at 4:30am today
I find the timing after a 40 min am nap very hard to figure out,

our wake up times have been so all over the place day to day... I havn't been able to try any one thing or amount of A time consistently.

so tommorow.... I will try to ensure two decent lenth naps with asleep by 3hr 30min in the am and go from there.

Thanks so much for all of your help... I think with all of the holiday hoopla and just general developmetal craziness, his sleeping has been all over the place and the routine has been a bust. And since he is quite spirited, he really doesn't do well without a solid routine. just can't seem to achieve one, just in a vicous cycle as they say....

[Zaiby]

what a weird night..

I put Riyan to bed at 6:15 (which was technically 4hrs and 40 minutes from last nap - so not too late)..
Well, he started to make his usual going to sleep moans and I thought ok, he'll be asleep any time now..As for the last few months, he has had no trouble going to sleep at bedtime at all - even when he's been over tired before - sure it might have taken longer, but still went to sleep..

But not today - his moaning escalated to cries and after 30 minutes (when he started to cry) I went in to shh/pat and he was wide awake   I did pd for awhile and rubbed his back but he kept trying to "talk" to me.(he wasnt crying anymore).So I put him down told him it was time to sleep and left...
He started again...so DH went in and did ssh/pat and he finally went to sleep at 7:30! Over an hour later?

One of 2 things could be the issue
1) we did go for a 20 minute stroller walk at about 4:15 - he didn't sleep, but could that "rest" have been enough to make him not tired for sleep at 6:30?

2) He was just overtired?

So what went wrong do you think?
 

[Zaiby]

well - he slept through I was hoping he would - but he did wake up at 5:20 ish...So another 10 hr night and we'll be doing 2 naps again today.  In fact he went to sleep at 8:35 this morning.
I will get him up in an hour and second nap at 1:30..for 1.5hrs, bedtime 7.  Well that's the plan...

So is going back and forth from 1 nap to 2 a bad thing?  And why some nights he'll go back to sleep after waking early and others not?
You know, I might just have to accept that I have an early bird  - if we can't fix these early wakings...
Maybe when he's truly on 1 nap, do you think?

BTW:I'm not sure about the 20 min stroller ride either - but who knows...I have another question - when he was younger - he would sleep in the stroller or car if needed- but since about 3-4 months ago - he doesn't...He will in the car if he is super tired and then it still takes about 12/20 minutes for him to fall asleep...is this normal? It makes giving quick catnaps when needed very hard...


Deb - I'm sticking with the 2 naps at the moment as Stacy suggested until Riyan is sorted out and not overtired.  I wanted him to start transitioning because I thought it might help with the early wakings, and also because of the timings...though now I know he might just not be ready. 

Maybe Noah needs that as well.  Will he do 2 decent naps?

[debo620]

well, Noah was asleep by 6:35pm, only heard him once in the night shuffling around and woke this morning at like 5:30ish am---so pretty good really,

I am going to try for a good nap this morning, so asleep by like 9, depending on him of course.

Stacy, are you saying  that if he catnaps in the morning---40min---as that was all he needed after a good night rest and less morning A time, that he probably can handle 4hrs of A time afterwards,
versus--a 40min am nap due to too much morning A time/overtiredness--that the A time would be less--like 3-3.5? I think this is true.

I am fairly sure that he does wake earlier in the am if the 2nd nap ends too late, but maybe 2x1hr naps is better, versus 1 hr15min am nap, 4hrs activity, and then another 1hr15min nap.? this would ensure longer A time before bed,

[debo620]

well Noah was asleep by 8:55---and woke after 40min happily, he went to sleep easily for this nap and I really feel like I had the timing right. He had yawned once, was quiet during windown and was asleep within 5 minutes.
maybe all he wants is a 40min nap in the am after he has had a good night sleep? I know Tracy says in BWSAYP book that alot of babies are on a 40min am nap and longer pm nap. Now to get the longer pm nap.....

totally confused as to how much A time he'll need now until his 2nd nap-as always
plan on sticking around the house and seeing how he does.
the other day he had slept 40min in the am and then slept 3hr 20min later for 1.75 hrs, but that was different becase I think the 40min am nap was due to overtiredness and too long of A time before the nap.


oh, the analyzing/overanalyzing continues.....