Needs less sleep or chronic overtired?

[aidenmc]

Hi there,

 I have haunted these boards for ages and was wondering what you all thought about ds's sleep habits. The main question is hwether he simply needs less sleep than others or whether his sleep pattern reflects chronic (ie. for many many months) overtiredness. I always thend to think he is overtired but everyone around me wants to push later naps and bedtime.

On a good typical day his schedule is something like this:

Wake: 5/5:30
Nap: 12:30/1:00 ish for 1.5 to 2.5 hours - tends to be on the shorter side these days.
Bedtime: usually 7:00, Dh was pushing it to 7:30 in the hopes he would sleep later. WE are back to 7ish because he has had some NWs and extra early wake-ups.

Last night he was asleep by about 7 and actually did it peacefully, on his own with dh lying on the floor. He woke briefly at 9, but his white noise machine had turned off so it may be that. Then he woke at 12:30ish; dh went in and put a hand on him. he was back to sleep fairly quickly.

He was awake for the day at 4:48. Today we are late fo his nap and it is 1:26 and he is still awake in there. I know this is way too late for his nap. Generally we are restricted because Aiden is at Montessori in teh morning so the earliest we can get him down is about 12:30.

I find that I get so frustrated becauseI often want to try for earlier sleeps but I don't feel totally supported in this. Plus, in the past we had been doing earlier bedtimes and it never resulted in him sleeping later than 5:30. I feel we are heading down the super-early wake-up path now and I am dreading it!

Any thoughts on our situation? He has been an early waker for months and months. He doesn't seem to be able to get past 10 hours at night (although a couple of weeks ago when I was away he slept from 7:20 to 7 straight - he hasn't done it since). It can be hard to know that he is tired because he gets goofy and excited rather than drowsy.

I would appreciate any insights!

[shimzy]

If this post is about your lo that was born in 2005, 7 hours in the morning with no nap is way way too long. Which child was it for?

[mari]

It does sound like overtired to me, I think that is why his naps are short because he is overtired.  Unfortunately I am not much good with early wakings, I haven't had that much experience (thankfully, touch wood!) but take a look at this thread and perhaps you might get some advice there.
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=13214.0

[aidenmc]

Hi Shimzy,

Yes, he is 17.5 months old. I know that is a long time to be awake before his nap. For a long time we gave him a nap at about 10:30 or 11, but then he went to bed super early (i.e. 5:30 or 6) as he was up so long after his nap. It didn't help his early wakings at all, though, and he was still below average on his total sleep.
It seems like nothing we try works. 

I have checked out that thread, Mari. Maybe I will consider it again though!

[aidenmc]

Merry Christmas everyone.  Well, to update... the night before last Aiden woke 3 timesbetween 12:30 and 2ish. DH went in the 1st 2 times. The last one he woke up completely and was playing!! I went in after a while and gave Tylenol and  feed in the hopes he would finally settle. HE did quite quickly. Yesterday we put him down for his nap at about 12:20. He woke part way through but dh got him back to sleep for a total of 2.5 hours and woke at 3. Much better. He was asleep last night by 7:20, later than we wanted but still not THAT late. So he woke at 11:30 then again at 12 something. DH took both of those. He then woke at 2:30. When I went in I again gave him meds and a feed. He wasn't back to sleep until 4:10!! He then woke at 6:15 for the day.

Who knows what is going on? I thought that by having a better nap he would have a better night, but no! And the crazy thing is that he is finally falling asleep all by himself, with dh on the floor. Todays nap was a wipe-out. He took 1hr to fall asleep and had a poop as he was almost asleep so dh didn't get him up to change him. Needless to say he woke after aout and hour. We are trying for an earlier bedtime again but are not holding our breath.

Is the extended wake-up generally a sign of overtiredness? He was fussy off and on - actually quite upset at times, seemingly because he would not settle. Not sure what the problem is...

[andibig]

aidenmc
our LOs our very similar in age 
we have recently got over a spate of NW with Sasha. about a month ago she had a very bad tummy bug and it took us a while to get her back on track afterwards.
at 18 mths (so i've read somewhere) they get another big blip of sep anx which can cause NW.the only way we were able to finally get rid of them (and we are talking over two wks of hard work from DH) was being totally consistent with how we dealt with the NW.
unfortunately i think its overtiredness causing the early wake ups and short naps.is there absolutely no way you can move his nap earlier?? could someone pick up aiden from montesorri?
other than that it could be his teeth or as for us frequent NW its a sign of DD coming down with a bug
HTH
Andrea

[aidenmc]

WE have found some success with a slightly earlier nap, but it has not affected the nights.  The night before last he was up for over an hour then up for the day at 5. He was asleep for his nap at about 12:20 and it last about 2 hrs. Last night he fell asleep completely on his own for the first time (since about 4 months of age). DH juts put him to bed then left the room rather than lying on the floor. He didn't seem to notice and went off to sleep very well by abouy 7. That is where the good part ends. He then woke at 8 (gas) then just after 9, then at 11:30 and 2:00. He woke briefly at 4:50 then at 5:30 for the day. Why is he waking so often at night when he is falling asleep on his own? Is this still overtiredness? It is definitely a bummer given how long it has taken us to get to the point of putting him to bed and leaving the room (although I always had a feeling his nightwaking problems were not just because of props ). DH is taking all the wake-ups now and I am doing the morning. He just goes in and puts a hand on him or sings. He wasn't awake long last night, just often. I am also working on leaving him longer and longer in the morning. He usually fusses for awhile then plays.

I guess we are just going to keep trying to be consistent with everything and see where that takes us.

[andibig]

becky
have to say thats brilliant news that he is able to go to sleep independently.i think its going to take a while to fix the NW but as you said its just a case of being consistent with the way the NW are dealt with.his worked out the falling asleep bit its just a case of him learning how to resettle himself!!
for us we just go in to DDs room say "lie down go to sleep" then leave.
how quickly are you responding to the NW? i tend to leave DD for a few mins just in case she settles herself (NOT CIO)
But it sounds like things are moving in the right direction. it will get better

[aidenmc]

Hi Sasha's mummy,

Thanks for checking in again. It is nice to have people to bounce things off of (and to celebrate our successes!)/

Well I think I found the culprit. This morning while Aiden was screaming because he couldn't have some markers (his current obsession!) I saw one of his 2-year molars poking through. I wasn't expecting them to come for another few months. He is still working on some of his eye teeth and his other molars aren't all completely through yet. Anyway, tonight he went to sleep with barely a sound all by himself again! I know that he has finally broken through the biggets obstacle and am so hopeful that one of these nights he will sleep through. I know he can do it. We do tend to go in fairly quickly, mostly in the hopes that he doesn't wake up too fully. However, there have been times when he has put himself back to sleep) and others when he is back to sleep by the time dh is in there. Tonight I gave him MOtrin as well as the usual Tylenol and am hoping that will be helpful ( i have been avoiding motrin because it can be hard  on tummies but am hoping it will be alright tonight.).

[andibig]

becky
oh those damn 2nd year molars!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sasha is working on hers at the moment. i can feel them under her gums but they have not cut through yet .i knew she was going to be early with them as shes been early with the other 16 teeth.
we also have to be careful with the meds we give her for teething as some make her really hyper and unable to sleep.
lets hope those teeth make an appearance soon

[aidenmc]

I will be so glad when all of his teeth are in. I think one of his bottom eye teeth are working their way through as well - it looks quite red and swollen there. He woke about 4-5 times again. We had the meds covered but the thing we can't control is the effect of teething on his tummy. He had a poop right before his bath last night but it seemed like it was his tummy that was upsetting him - he would doze off then cry out and move around, uncomfortable. On his last wake-up at 4:10 DH had had enough, and (I think he was both angyr and half asleep) I heard him actually get Aiden up out of bed open the door of his room. I rushed in at that point (I would never get him up that early - and he was clearly tired). Anyway, I ended up feeding him then put him back down. He was asleep by 4:55 adn slept until after 6:30 which was something. Anyway, he had another big poop after breakfast which I am conviced was part of the problem. NOt much we can do about that though. I wonder now whether the Motrin was contributing to the problem, but then again, he was just as bad the night before last. Poor guy  .

[andibig]

becky
we use different meds in the UK. but i have found that certain meds can irritate her tummy.
you could try teething granules.we have one in the uk which is called "ashton and palmers" which help with the teething and helps with their tummies as well.there is probably an equivalent where you are.i find the granules are pretty good for DD

[Colesmom]

aidenmc,

I am hoping for your sake that it's the molars causing you trouble.

May I ask if your DS has ever slept through?

Your post rings very true with me. My DS has only slept through a handful of times.  He only ever gives us 10 hours at night unless he is sick, and that is 10 hours of broken sleep because he still wakes every night.  I too am not sure whether he is chronically overtired or just needs less sleep than average.  I have tried earlier bedtimes, with wi/wo, but he just cries and then falls asleep almost to the minute 14 hours after he woke. Our typical schedule is something like

8, 8:30, 9:00 bed  wake around 11, 1, 3 or all 3 times...i try to get him back to sleep but end up on the couch out of sheer exhaustion
wake for the day almost exactly to the minute 10 hours after going down, so around 6, 6:30, 7:00.

nap 12:30-2:30 at daycare. no flexibility here and he's woken at up many days.

anyway, I just wanted to let you know you are not alone.  I have tried and tried and tried sleep training, and I will continue to do so.

Again, i hope it's the molars causing your disruptions and you get some rest soon!
   

[aidenmc]

Hi Colesmom,

Aiden slept through the night for about a month at 3 months of age. DH would dream feed a bottle at midnight but otherwise he would sleep for 7 to 7. He has only done it a handful of times since then. I think he started teething at about 4 months and really wonder whether that has been his main problem since. The last time he slept through (7:20 to 7:00) was before Christmas when I was out at a Christmas dinner and sleepover with some girlfriends. Murphy's law - dh got more sleep than I did!

Anyway, we have spent a long time on the sleep training  - a gradual removal approach. I am happy that we are finally at a point where he will put himself to sleep peacefully at night (although we are still in the room at nap time - that's the next challenge). For me the real key was getting dh to take over. We have had sleep problems along with digestive issues for so long that ds was hooked on the boob to fall asleep and to get back to sleep during the night. I have gradually taken bf out of the sleep routine and that really involved dh taking over a lot of the routine.

Unfortunately we still have problems at night despite the occasional period where there seems to be some hope. For a while dh was taking all the nightwakings because ds tends to want to nurse if I go in and it can turn into quite a battle (even though he is virtually weaned). Hoever the past 2-3 nights I have ended up going in at about the 3rd wake-up to feed and put back to sleep as dh is very tired by then. I have a feeling it is not a good idea though. He never nurses back to sleep which is one thing.

THese days he is actually sleeping a little later into the morning (i.e. 6 or later) but that is generally after being awake a number of times and/or for a longer stretch during the night. We seem to go back and forth between early mornings (as early as 4:30 ) and many wake-ups.

I know what you mean about the 10 hours though. After I got him back to sleep this morning (He was awake from 3:45 to 5:00 and put up a big fight!) he slept another 2 hours to make it to 10 hours.

Your schedule is interesting. QUite similar to ours although ds wakes earlier and goes to bed earlier. He is usually asleep at 7 or 7:30 then up at 5:30 onwards in the morning.

Do you think it is teeth that are causing your lo to wake?

[Colesmom]

Hey Becky-if it's teeth then he's been teething his whole life LOL!  I do think that it could be teeth.  He often wakes about 4-6 hours after i give him Tylenol or Motrin...so when the meds would be wearing off.  I've tried homeopathic teething tablets and teething gel too. sometimes they work, sometimes not.

I would like to think that he's just overtired.  That to me would seem very easy to fix.  However, I am either a very bad BW mommy and can still not read my child or he just needs less sleep.  it can be 7:30 pm, 5 hours after waking from nap and he's playing happily on the floor with his Thomas train...quietly pushing him along saying "choo choo, open door, tank you"...I would think if he was truly overtired he would be kind of out of control running around.  Sometimes he's like that if I let it get too late...but I would say 90% of the time he seems fine

After seeing a post about how to choose between wi/wo and gradual withdrawl i've decided to switch to GW.  I've tried wi/wo too many times and now Cole knows I will cave in the middle of the night.  My strategy is to find a time where he goes down easily, wakes less frequently (or not at all) and sleeps until a reasonable time. Until i find that schedule I am sleeping on his floor next to him.(to regain trust, maintain consistency and get him back to sleep as fast as possible)  Sat. night he was down by 8:45 after a later than normal nap and waking at 7:30am (so down 45 min. earlier than I expected).  He fought it a bit because it was new, me being on the floor.  He woke at 1:00 asking for milk, but i persevered and only gave water, but he was up 2.5 hours trying to go back to sleep.  He was up for the day at....you guessed it, 6:45 am

Last night he was down by 8:30, only taking 10 min. to fall asleep and he had woken from another late nap at 3:45 (fell asleep in car for 10 min. then wouldn't go back down, had to resort to a car nap later on    Anyhoo, he didn't wake until 3:30am and was back to sleep by 4:15 after I gave him some milk (he hasn't been eating well and he pretty much stood up and said "milk") then up at 6:30, i gave him some water and went to cuddle on the couch to wake up and he turned over and slept until 7:30!  so...around 11 hours.  Unheard of.  soooo, i will continue to work on getting him more sleep and trying to overcome the overtired monster, if that is what is causing us trouble.

The only think now is I wonder how I will wean the handholding at bedtime.  Cole has never been good with me in the room. If I'm there he needs to be touching me...that's why i always tried wi/wo before. I guess i'll have to endure some more crying when i want to wean the hand.

I tell you, I don't miss the tears at bedtime. wi/wo was tearing me apart!

ttfn and happy new year