Need Wind Down Help!!! - Updated

[Mom to M&M]

OK, so we've pinpointed many of DD's sleep problems as related to overtiredness and teething. She's SO active lately and running around so much and so much fun to be around, BUT she's so prone to overtiredness and then to tantrums, etc. She used to be really easy to wind down for sleep - naps were a bit of TV sometimes, always 1-2 books, sip of water or milk from her cup, quick cuddle with lullaby and into crib. Lately, perhaps because she is overtired and/or just because she's having so much fun, she just can't settle. She's tired but not sleepy, KWIM? So she goes into her crib and just yells and wants to play and jump around, even though we're sure to really give her a lot of physical activity first, have cut out TV before sleep, and do a longer wind down with dim lights and more books.

We used to do her bath in the morning but I've realized it does make her sleepy and yawn, so we recently moved that to nights, at least nights we are home. And that helps - tonight we weren't going to do a bath (as she was dirty this morning and had one then) but wouldn't settle. We did bath and she fell asleep no problem after that and one more story. So that's cool for nighttime, but we need ideas for a good transition before her nap. Any thoughts for something that would similarly help her settle and get sleepy? Certain music? Baby Einstein DVD (which we don't even own)? I've tried massage with lotion but she doesn't like it/doesn't help. And if she goes to bed too late she's up way early the next morning... TIA!

[PeepersMom]

Hi Karen, I came on line this morning to go looking for your overtired thread. It seems Miss Marisa and Mr. PJ are one and the same these days.  How can he go from sleeping a nice 12 hour night and 2 hours in the day to 10hours and 1h15min nap?  In just 2 days it all goes to hell.  And w/the lack of sleep comes the wired up boy and hard to wind down.

I swear we can't even look at him past 4pm some days and it is too much stimulation.

He is definitely in an "I'm too excited to sleep" phase right now, making some developmental changes(talking, recognizing colors, etc) and teething as always, but I just can't quite get a handle on anything to get the sleep back. 

Over the past few weeks he has gone to sleep anywhere from 6:45pm to 11pm.  Not kidding.  And b/c of the late bedtimes he has woken up earlier and earlier.  So now his night sleep is widdled away to about 10hours on average and day time sleep isn't making up for it in the least.

So I know there is a thread on here about wind down routines, but like you, I think our routine is pretty extensive and much more than most people do.  I have a long routine b/c I used to use it more to stretch his awake time so he could make it to a bedtime of 6-6:30

We do TV for 15 min (that is the part I think is too much stim.  right now, didn't used to be)
15 min quiet play w/soft music
bath/massage about 20-30min
several books - about 10 min
then rocking in his dark room till he calms down (he usually talks, sings w/his head on my shoulder) occasionally he falls asleep but lately I put him down still going strong after I hit my limit of 30min rocking.

So our winddown is sometimes over an hour!  You would think that would be enough.

Anyway, I might start my own thread,but I may just hop on here w/you.

Meg

[Mom to M&M]

Definitely must be a phase/age thing, as PJ is only 2 weeks older than Marisa and Marisa's cousin (5 weeks younger) is doing the same thing too. She just is so excited about everything and learning so much and it takes more to "switch her off", KWIM? Anyway, she went to bed at 8:30 last night (too late) and woke at 6:20 this morning. She was pretty active until about 9 when we went out in the car to run errands and now she's watching a BE video on loan and then we'll try lunch and see if she'll go for her nap - she does seem pretty relaxed right now, so fingers and toes crossed. But curious to see what others think/say!

[PeepersMom]

So Karen what is your ideal schedule?

Seems that pj will either fall asleep right away for not for hours at bedtime.  He falls very easily to sleep for nap, but just won't stay asleep.  Nothing new there, always the problem.

I try for a 7-7 night and a 12-2 nap but I rarely get that.  Last night he fell asleep after 8 which meant up at 6 am.  Now exhausted at 11, so I tried to feed him lunch, which didn't work b/c tired.  I am letting him wander a little to see if he poops then we are going right to nap.  Which in the end will mean super early bedtime. 

We were so good for a while.....we lost it about 3 weeks ago, maybe more.

Yes very anxious to hear others replies.

Ok got a poopy diaper ( gee wiz, really? who could have predicted that? LOL) and down for nap

[Mom to M&M]

Um, I'm relatively flexible but I guess ideal would be 8-7 night and 12-2/2:30 nap. Lately thought, she's been having a really hard time falling asleep for both naps and bedtime - the bath seems to have solved the bedtime problem so far, but haven't found something for naps. I think she actually went in to rested today and is fighting it. Will try again in 15 minutes I guess and otherwise take her out in stroller and transfer so she (and DH and I) can catch up on a little sleep.

[Mom to M&M]

Yup - about to head out in stroller. She had pooped and then got hyper...

Maybe if I do the BE or other calming TV (Spot?) I should do it AFTER lunch, that way she has time to poop and wind down more? And let her play and run before lunch? Once she falls asleep for her nap she's still taking at least 2 hours most days, it's getting her to sleep then and for bedtime (although like I said, the bath seems to be helping on that end so far).

[TDR'smom]

Not sure if this is too much of a pain in the butt, however we change Tyler into his night time pajamas..even for his naps.  It always seems to help him fall asleep faster and sleep longer.  It almost "triggers" something in his mind that it is time to sleep?

Just a thought.

Good luck ladies!!! 

[Mom to M&M]

That's a good idea, Judy, but it wasn't working for Marisa, even at night, until we added in the bath. Today we took her in the stroller and she was asleep within 5 minutes and brought her right up and transferred her. She half woke and fell right back asleep in her crib at 12:25 - will wake her at 3 if not up. I don't mind doing this once in a while, but obviously not every day - so need to figure something else out for naptime success!

[PeepersMom]

I know quite a few who stick the lo into a sleep sack at nap

i am sooooooooo mad at myself right now.  PJ was actually doing a nice nap and I decided to go up to the bathroom.  As I creeped past his room a floorboard creaked and he was up.  I just can't believe it. He is such a light sleeper!  It happens almost everytime.  I don't know why I even dared to push the envelope.  We were on our way to a really good nap, we were 1h45 min in, and if he makes it past 1h30min we usually end up w/2.5.  GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

So he will have an early bedtime again.

Our naptime routine is lunch starts 30 min b/f I want him to sleep.  That takes about 15min, then we go up for 15 min of quiet play and books and usually a poop.  and he is usually ready for his nap.  He has always been ready for naps his whole life.  He is a kid I could always get to fall asleep for a nap no matter what time if given 20min, but his problem has been staying asleep.  So I am always stretching his awake time and tweaking it to what feels like an exact minute to get a decent nap out of him.  I hate that he needs to be micromanaged like that.

I would love to be flexible with routine,it is more in my nature,  but he is so all over the place that I really try to adhere to something so we can all be sane.

have a good rest today!

[Mom to M&M]

Sorry to hear that Meg, hope he sleeps well tonight. Marisa ended up sleeping for 2.25 so will try bath at 7:15 and bed at 7:45 and hope for the best. Still need to figure out a better way to transition her into sleepy time before the nap though!

[PeepersMom]

what do you do before naps now?  what about warm milk? 

You might have to come up with a nice little routine and do if for a few days before she gets that these are the sleepy cues you are giving her!  maybe even have to mimic basically the same daily morning routine so she gets the flow of the day.  For example we lead our routine for the day basically the same every day.  Out of crib at 7 and have milk and cherrios, 8 am breakfast followed by getting dressed.  I shower/dress and then out for a short activity. 10am snack and 1130 lunch followed by our pre nap quiet play, book and poop  and then sleep.  You just might have to think of the whole day in terms of routine for her to have an ebb and flow and sort of expect what is next.

Listen, I hate to be regimented like this, but in the end it is what worked for PJ.  He is spirited and if left to his own devices he would be a crazy tornado.  This way he is as undercontrol as he can be.  Which isn't saying much!!

Anyway, just some ideas to think about.

i did end up getting him to bed early tonight and although I screwed up his nap, it was significantly longer than yesterday and I could see a huge difference in him this afternoon and he settled and was asleep w/in 10min tonight.  HUGE difference.

I guess I really need to change pace if at all possible on days he has a short nap, and put to bed early.  That way it doesn't get so out of control.......like yesterday.

M

[TDR'smom]

I just thought of something....

What about trying verbal cues?  Even if they are not speaking yet (Tyler isn't).  About 15 minutes before nap time, I will start telling him, "Tyler, it's almost time for nigh night", or "After this show you have to go nigh night".  If you say it over and over consistently they will eventually catch on.   Before bedtime, I will start saying it about 30 minutes before....

Just like Marisa and PJ, Tyler is very spirited and hard to settle.  However, by giving him a little "heads up", it should almost trigger the sleepy vibes.  Many times he will be playing fast and furiously at something and I will say or ask "Tyler, do you want to go nigh nigh?".  He will drop everything and grab my hand and pull me upstairs to his room. 

It won't happen overnight, but it WILL happen. 

Good luck ladies. 

[Mom to M&M]

Glad to hear it Meg - hope he gets a good night of sleep!

Thanks Judy - I do that already but will try to increase it and see if it helps.

Rough night here. Was aiming for 7:45/8pm bedtime. Unfortunately, DD was having SO much fun running and roughhousing and playing ball with daddy. I still got her in the bath at 7:15 and into bed at 7:40 but she was way hyper still and wouldn't go to bed until 9:15 pm so I'm sure it'll be a 5:30 or so wake time - in which case I'll have to try for two naps tomorrow. I definitely should have stopped them from playing 10-15 minutes sooner and spent more time reading to her, talking quietly before the bath but she was having too much fun.

Currently our nap routine is lunch, read books (and/or watch TV but worried too stimulating), diaper change, warm milk, read one more book, one lullaby and into crib...

[PeepersMom]

your nap routine sounds nice.....hum would lull me to sleep!

I am definitely worried the tv is too stimultating.  Especially on overtired days.  That was definitely our mistake the day I started on this thread w/you.  We are cutting out our eve tv until we get this undercontrol.  With so much going on in them right now - new words, abilities - I think watching tv gets their little minds racing.  The night we had problems he was watching a video of classical music!  but still too much

What about replacing that bit of tv w/carrying her around the house showing her the trees out the window, etc.  That swaying of walking around has always been a big relaxer to PJ.  In fact that is pretty much all I do before nap, read a few books,  go in his room turn on the white noise, sway for about 5 minutes and put him down. he immediately puts his head on my shoulder.  What do you think about a little sway???  You never know..

PJ woke at 5 am.  I was already planning my day, how I was going to squeeze in 2 naps, etc.  I always leave him in the crib till 7 - he is usually happy, but 2 hours is a long time!  Next thing you know it is 6am and he is back to sleep, thank GOD and he slept till 8.  There is absolutely no consistency here. 

Meg

[Mom to M&M]

We've also cut out evening TV - and now are only watching a little Sesame in the morning (in bed with me to give me time to wake up on early mornings and keep her calm/still a little longer) and a bit of Baby Einstein before nap and 10 minutes of Dora before dinner (to allow me to get it ready). It used to relax her before naps and bedtime but like you said, not right now.

I've tried the carrying around house thing but Marisa really hates to be held when she's tired so she fights against it and gets more hyper...

Marisa woke for the day at 6:15 - so only 9  hours night sleep. But trying for two naps usually backfires on us unless the second is going to be in the car. So I'm going to try to get her until at least 11 and try for one long nap and early bedtime I guess. Of course since she's already overtired she may well fight the nap, in which case I'll have to do the stroller transfer. Glad PJ went back to sleep!

[Mom to M&M]

Well I got a seemingly tired girl in her crib at 11 but she's getting really worked up now at 11:15. Guess will try again and if not take her in stroller so she's asleep by 12 and do transfer as she really needs the sleep and I need to get some work done (WAHM). I just don't understand why she's fighting falling asleep in her crib so much - her off switch seems to be broken LOL but she'll pass out in the stroller, even barely moving, within 2 minutes, half wake at the transfer and take a long nap.

If she wakes early/has less than 10 hours sleep again tonight should I try for an earlier nap in her crib - say 3.5 hours after waking, wake at an hour if she falls asleep, and then try for a stroller nap of 1-1.5 hours maybe 4 hours later? I really want her to be able to fall asleep in her crib again - this never used to be a problem.

Edited to say that she fell asleep in her crib, without crying or further upset at 11:30 or maybe just before. Really hope she can sleep at least 2 hours but either way glad she didn't need the stroller... Now I have to quickly run on the treadmill, shower and get some work done!

[Mom to M&M]

Stacy - I do think that was part of the problem last night - so tonight will do bath 25-30 minutes before bed and for at least 15 minutes before that will let her just sit at table with us or read books on floor, etc. But that doesn't seem to be the issue before naps - we only did quiet stuff for about an hour before I put her in. Strange... At least she's still sleeping now at 1 hour and 45 minutes in.

[Rachel's Mum]

Thought I'd stick my experiences in here - I'd love to be able to give you the answer, but nothing we're doing here seems to be working either.

My LO (18 months) is taking up to an hour to finally pass out when we get her into bed both before her nap and her bedtime.  I'm wondering whether it's partly because she's been at home with us all over Christmas, and I'm sure we don't exhaust her as much as a day in nursery does (it only really started a couple of weeks ago) but I suspect it's also largely to do with how active and alert she is, and how quickly her talking is coming along at the moment.

Current routine is wake at 8am (far too late for us to get ready to get out of the house to go to work/nursery) nap between 1.30 and 3pm (again too late a start really, but she won't sleep before half one, sometimes even two, regardless of when we start the routine) and sleep at 9pm (although right now (9.15pm) she is still awake, even with Daddy's best efforts!)

Believe it or not, we started getting her ready for bed at 7.15pm this evening, so we're currently been trying to get her to sleep for two hours!!

The thing that I really don't understand is that we tell her 'it's time for bed soon' a couple of times, and then when it is time, she makes her own way upstairs.  We have a bath, some milk, and a couple of books, and then we put her into her cot, and then she wriggles for up to an hour.  She never really screams, she never seems that upset - she just takes FOR EVER to finally pass out!!

Daddy has just come down, and she seems to have finally dropped off.  I'm glad to say that BW has helped me once again with this, even if I haven't got the ultimate solution.  Just knowing there are other people out there in the same situation, and that's it's not that my LO is insane, or I'm being a useless parent, has helped me immensely.  So thanks again to all you wonderful people who are willing to share their thoughts and experiences.

[Mom to M&M]

It sounds like your DD is getting enough sleep - just later than you'd like. If you wake her at 7:30 am will she take the nap sooner and thus be ready for bed earlier?

Rough night again. After a 2 hour 25 minute nap ending at 1:50, we were shooting for 7:30 bedtime. At 6:30 we slowed things way down - dim lights, only books, etc, she sat with us. At 7 we did her bath. To make a long story short, she finally passed out at 9pm... Any ideas why she is fighting bedtime even worse than the nap now? She seems tired but not sleepy at all, no matter what I do. Does it make any sense to offer her one nap earlier in the day and if she naps from say 10:30-12:45/1 maybe she'll be ready for bed by 7:30/before 8 instead of not until 9?

[Mum to cool dude]

Rachel's mom: I could have written your  post - my DS has exactly the same schedule. It is a pain when we have to leave the house in the morning and when we have things to do in the evenings plus I worry that he's not rested enough. If you have any ideas, they would be greatly appreciated. My New Year resolution is to get DS in bed earlier  TIA

And, NO, that does not mean that you are an inadequate mom, we just have LOs who find life too interesting to sleep

[Mom to M&M]

Grr. Well after going to bed at 9pm she woke at 6:45, so at least an improvement over yesterday. But I probably should have gotten her in for a nap at 10:30/10:45 as she seemed tired then but I tried to do an early lunch first and got her in at 11:30 and now she's wired. I'm trying again now - she's in there with a book, but if no go I'm going to have to do a stroller transfer - she needs the sleep and I need to get some stuff done.

Maybe tomorrow try 4 hours like you said before nap, let her go as long as she can, and then like 6.5 before bed?

[Mom to M&M]

Marisa's never been much for 11 hours night sleep, so I'd be happy with 8-6:30 and nap from 10:30/11-1/1:30, but we'll see I guess. Ended up taking her out in stroller and she was asleep within 2 minutes at 12:20 and I transferred her at 12:30 - so she's sleeping in crib now (half woke at transfer). Guess will let her sleep until 2:45 and try for 8:30 bedtime?

[Mom to M&M]

The only reason I'm hesitant to wake early is because the day last week that she only did a 1.5 hour nap she still fought bedtime but was more overtired and woke earlier the next morning. So I guess for today I'll wake by 2:45, maybe she'll be up sooner, and try for bedtime 8:30 unless she seems sleepy sooner. Work in progress i guess.

Teething blows goats - think that is part of the problem here, but who knows really?!

[Rachel's Mum]

Rachel did better tonight - she went upstairs for her bath at 7.10pm and dropped off at 8.35pm, but she was completely wired for about half an hour before she finally passed out!

And just to completely mess with your heads - she went back to nursery for the first time today in about 2 weeks.  We woke her up at 7.15pm, and she was bright and cheerful.  She had her nap between 12.05 and 1.40pm, and... get this... she dropped straight off to sleep after the nursery nurse said simply 'lie down Rachel' 

[Mom to M&M]

So Marisa woke on her own after 2 hours 10 minutes today at 2:35 and then wouldn't go to bed until 8:45 (think she fell asleep at 8:50). At least better than 9pm last night. Will see what tomorrow brings and maybe try earlier nap...

[Mom to M&M]

Interesting. After the 8:45 bedtime she slept until 7:15 today - a great improvement and honestly, I'd be happy with that every day (and 8:30 bedtime would be ideal). Today she fell asleep for her nap in her crib (no stroller needed) at 12 - hope she sleeps at least 2 hours.

[TDR'smom]

Yeh Marisa!!!  That is great Karen!!  Keeping my fingers crossed for you!!!

[Mom to M&M]

Drat - only took 1.5 hours. Not sure if her drippy cough (think from teething) woke her or wasn't tired enough - lately it seems like she'll fall asleep in crib easier with shorter A time (like 4.5-4.75 hours) but often then only take 1.5 hour nap whereas with 5-5.5 A time she often fights falling asleep, have to do stroller transfer and then she sleeps 2.25 hours. Also means that between last night and this afternoon she slept a total of 12 hours, which seems to be about her max lately - how odd is that?

[TDR'smom]

It's so hard to figure them out!!!!   

[Mom to M&M]

Isn't it? We're going to try to just go with the flow for now since she's happy for the most part and see. Will bath her early in case she wants a 7:30 bedtime but see how it seems and do later if she doesn't seem ready. And maybe tomorrow will try to get her in crib at 5 hours A time and see if that can split the difference and get at least a 2 hour nap...