over-active REM sleep

[gracebetogod]

Hi to all Mommies, I have a general question about night waking.  But first here are the answers to the questions Kimberly asked for:
How old is your child?  10 1/2 months
What’s his/her daily routine?
7-7:30 wake up
7:30-8 eat solids and have 4-6 oz formula
8-9 play with her toys
9-9:30 nap down
10:30-12 wake up have small snack and play
12-solids and 4-6 oz formula
1-2 nap
2-3:30 -quiet activities like reading books, going for a stroller ride, etc.
3:30 -snack and 8 oz. formula, more play
5:30 - solids
6:00 bath
6:30 6-8 oz solids and to bed (just recently moved sleep time to 6:30, used to be 7:00)
What’s nap routine? 2 a day
How long are naps?45 minutes to 1 1/2 hours
What's bedtime routine? Time? see above
Do you bottle or breastfed?? sippy cup since 7 months
How much? or how long? see above
If breastfed.. one side or both?? (at each feed)
How many wakes per night? at least 2
What’s your LO like when waking at night? How long is he/she up? she is not usually fully awake unless I don't go in for several seconds
When you go to him/her is she fussing or crying? Or is it a mantra cry? usually a mantra cry
What have you tried to settle?? put her back down, do the wi/wo method
What do you do for A time and how long is it?she either goes right back asleep or wakes every 20 minutes for several hours
Are there developmental issues such as teething or milestones? teething, beginning walking, "brain spurt"
Have you introduced cereal? Why, how much, and how many times a day? (for LO’s under 6 months)
Do they have a prop? If so what is it? no
Do they have a lovie? yes, a teddie

After a month of night wakings and observation/frustration, I have come to feel that she has an overly-active REM sleep.  She usually wakes 2 hours after putting down, is standing or walking around her crib and doing the mantra cry.  When you go in, it is obvious she is not fully awake.  At this waking, she will go back to sleep by putting her down, saying the key phrase and leaving.   I just got her to go to sleep on her own (she had done it before for a long time until now) by doing the wi/wo method, which I highly recommed to any Mom whose LO has went to sleep on their own before and now does not (see the frequenly asked questions and it is in the walk in/walk out vs. gradual withdrawl post). 
The problem is, she also wakes anywhere from 3 to 4 a.m.  when she is entering that final big REM stage before waking (I have watched enough times to see that she has this last REM stage every night at this time, just like adults do.)  I have tried not to "spoil" her to comfort by going straight in since it is a mantra cry she is doing.  This backfires, however, because she comes out of her dreamlike state after a dozen or so seconds of mantra cry and then is almost impossible to get to go back to sleep.  So then I do the wi/wo method, which only works after several hours (she then wakes every 10-20 minutes).  I have tried to stay and tell her the key phrase, pat her for a few seconds, then leave, and this brings out the seperation anxiety in full force and a wail commences.  If I tell her the key phrase in a firm voice, do not make eye contact, set her down and leave, she goes to sleep (still waking minutes later, however). 
So, I have also tried to help her lay back down by herself, which she now knows how to do, to no avail.  She will cry until I come in and then sometimes she will lay herself down.
So...my questions are...Do I let her do the mantra cry until it wakes her and escalates and then go in and do wi/wo?  Or do I go in before she wakes and lay her down?  Do I continue to show her how to lay down, saying the key phrase?  Will she eventually get it (she picks up everything else much more quickly)? 
I have also tried wake to sleep, which has helped with the first waking, but that early morning one, I keep modifying my wake up time every night to one hour before she woke up last night and she still wakes up an hour later, or wakes up before my alarm goes off to get her up.  So this method has definately backfired on me?  I also give her Tylonol or Advil those nights she is teething bad, this seems to make no difference.  I have increased her food intake and I don't think she is hungry.  I guess I just hate to get in the habit of a late/early bottle.  She is very easy to get into a bad habit at this age.
Any advice would be so welcome.
Thank you all and to all a good night...

[Colin Macs Mom]

So...my questions are...Do I let her do the mantra cry until it wakes her and escalates and then go in and do wi/wo?  Or do I go in before she wakes and lay her down?  Do I continue to show her how to lay down, saying the key phrase?  Will she eventually get it (she picks up everything else much more quickly)? 

Yes, you want to let her mantra until it's more than that. I know how annoying that can be, but if you don't she'll lose her ability to fall asleep on her own. You're doing great, so keep at it. It WILL pay off. She'll get it, but sometimes it takes a LO longer than "normal" - it always did with my DS.

I have also tried wake to sleep, which has helped with the first waking, but that early morning one, I keep modifying my wake up time every night to one hour before she woke up last night and she still wakes up an hour later, or wakes up before my alarm goes off to get her up.  So this method has definately backfired on me? 

How long did you try W2S? It takes at least 3 days, maybe longer, to kick in.

[gracebetogod]

Thank you for your quick reply.
I have tried the wake to sleep for a week (about 7-8 nights).  But, like I said, sometimes she will wake up at a different time (earlier) and foil my plan.  Do you think I should get her back down when this happens with wi/wo and then attempt another wake to sleep later in the night or morning?
Thank you so much...

[Colin Macs Mom]

If she wakes at different times then that indicates that it's not habitual. 

[gracebetogod]

Ok. I know she does wake at different times within the 2:00 to 4:00 a.m. time frame.  So I have tried a 1:30, a 2:00 and a 3:30 wake to sleep time depending on the time she woke the night before.  Does wake to sleep work if the waking is not habitual?
Thank you.

[Colin Macs Mom]

Well, yes, it will work if the waking is not habitual, but LO must be waking at the same time or close. Somewhere between 2 and 4 is not close.

[bobblesmum]

Hi,

Looking at your routine, I just wondered why you had such a long A time between the 2nd nap and bed time (4.5hrs). What is LO like before bed-is she overtired? Have you tried extending the A before the 2nd nap, so you put her down later so there is a shorter A time before bed?

I only thought this as I know if my LO (nearly 9months) has been awake for more than 3.5hrs before bed, we are guaranteed multiple wakings at night!!

xxx

[gracebetogod]

Thanks for the response...

She used to take a "catnap" every day from around 4 to 4:30 or 4:45.  She has dropped this nap and I tried for awhile still putting her down for it, with normal wind-down routine, and she would just sit in her crib and babble or sometimes cry.  I have tried to extend the afternoon nap, but she does the same thing, wakes up and is usually happy, and if so, I just get her up.

As an update on my night troubles.  She has gotten one tooth right after the other (working on her third now).  This has, of course, changed her personality (happy, content) to very whiny, clingy, and unhappy.  I have just kept her on the Motrin at night (although I hate giving it to her all the time) and that is the only way she will fall asleep.  When she wakes now (usually only twice the last 4 nights), I go in, tell her "Mommy's here, it's okay" and then in a firmer voice "lay down, it's time to go sleepy now" (key phrase).  She sits and I help her lay down.  She is still trying to learn how to lay down.  For some reason, she thinks the only way to get down is to fall (this is probably from her attempts at walking).  So she closes her eyes and braces for it, falling backward.  I have tried to bring her elbow back and show her how to ease down, but I think she will have to learn this on her own.  I am now of the opinion that she will not go back to sleeping through the night until her teeth are in (or there is a break between them coming in).  From knowing her, I know she is very sensitive to physical pain.  I just try to keep her on meds, and give her extra cuddling.  There are times when she goes back to playing independantly, smiling at strangers, etc., and I know she must not be hurting during those times. 

If any Mommies out there also have a sensitive baby, I would love to hear your stories.  It's a fine line between being there for them and fostering indepenence.  And these teething times make it harder. 
Thank you....